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Old 2011-02-12, 13:13   Link #221
Justin_Brett
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I'd disagree with that. They already had those scenes with Hayate beforehand, and it's never implied that they're faking in those or anything. And there were certainly hints of a deeper nature for what they were doing.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:15   Link #222
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I'd disagree with that. They already had those scenes with Hayate beforehand, and it's never implied that they're faking in those or anything. And there were certainly hints of a deeper nature for what they were doing.
I wouldn't.

I did NOT like the Wolkenritter in A's.

The only character that was sympathetic to me in A's was Hayate (and later Reinforce). None of the other new characters were.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:23   Link #223
Justin_Brett
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...huh. That's weird.
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Old 2011-02-12, 13:48   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Again, Raiser, unless they actually begin to be protrayed like that, I don't see why I should view them as such when they haven't really been all that sympathetic. Any arguments for them are pretty much entirely fanon at this point.
They are afflicted with a virus that makes them kill. As such, I view them as someone with cancer or aids or some other disease trying to do what they need to in order to live.

One can still view them as sympathetic, and yet still view their actions as unacceptable. I do. Those aren't mutually exclusive positions. Sympathetic means you understand why they do the things they do, and understand that it is quite possible for you to do the same things in the same circumstances.

As far as the TSAB being a powderkeg? Ha. Why do you get people doing bad things? Because they can't find a place in society. The TSAB has been shown to really try to give people a place in society, and thus why I can see the organization being favorable to the people.
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Old 2011-02-12, 14:14   Link #225
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
And they do represent something beyond something for the heroes fight. Like I've said before, they're people stuck in an unfortunate situation where they have to kill to live.
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They are afflicted with a virus that makes them kill. As such, I view them as someone with cancer or aids or some other disease trying to do what they need to in order to live.
Speaking of this... I've been paging through Force again, and I just so happened to stumble upon a quote from Fortis. Chapter 8, page 22 "We can move without the virus controlling our actions."

So... they know of a way to 'beat the virus' so to say and live without having to kill. Their current killing is therefore not the cause of the virus, but their own volition.
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Old 2011-02-12, 14:18   Link #226
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You forget that that was exactly Regius's motivation for doing what he did. The Navy snapped up all the talented mages, leaving the ground forces greatly under powered. That's why he resorted to the Combat Cyborg project.
Believe me, I have NOT forgotten about Regius. Actually, now that I have tried to see things from his point of view, I have a greater respect for him.

Now that I have taken off the goggles I used to look at Nanoaverse with and that I have come back from long weeks watching Legend of Galactic Heroes, I can now understand all too well why people like Nighty are so bothered by the rampant nepotism in the Bureau and why the blatant favoritism toward mages have been bothering me for a while. Especially when characters like Hayate have not been shown doing actions that are worth of their brass.

Because when I see it through a sociological point of view, it's a rather fucked up Bureau.
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Old 2011-02-12, 14:26   Link #227
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It's an ideology that has only survived because it's a fictional world.

Though amusingly enough, Hayate herself is aware of the system, and even calls herself someone who's rank is only for show.
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Old 2011-02-12, 14:30   Link #228
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It's an ideology that has only survived because it's a fictional world.
Exactly my opinion. Someone like Masamune Shirow or anyone with a grasp on how societies can work and fail would be more than happy to write a story about its eventual fall if he have been given the chance.

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Though amusingly enough, Hayate herself is aware of the system, and even calls herself someone who's rank is only for show.
Poor girl, the more genre savvy character is also the one who gets the least screentime of the trio.
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:03   Link #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Speaking of this... I've been paging through Force again, and I just so happened to stumble upon a quote from Fortis. Chapter 8, page 22 "We can move without the virus controlling our actions."

So... they know of a way to 'beat the virus' so to say and live without having to kill. Their current killing is therefore not the cause of the virus, but their own volition.
You're partially right. Remember, the "cure" they have is only a partial one. They still have to kill in order to live, but they can generally control when and who they kill. All that matters is they have bodies around when the time comes. What is happening to Touma currently is what they can protect against (he doesn't recognize anyone and is going into self-destruction mode, just how Fortis described earlier).

Chapter 8, page 17: "In order to maintain functional sanity and life, it is necessary that you continue killing. An EC-infected person cannot live without killing."

They have a partial cure, but as Fortis said, they'll turn into a lump of flesh as a result of their regeneration going out of control if they don't. "You may resist with the mindset that murder is a crime. However you'll get used to it. We did, too."

Edit: As far as the TSAB goes, I don't see why it would fail. It could technically work in real life, too.
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:05   Link #230
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I know, Kaijo, you've said that several times. But that's still your fanon. The story itself so far thinks otherwise.
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:30   Link #231
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You're partially right. Remember, the "cure" they have is only a partial one. They still have to kill in order to live,
Uh-huh, and where does it say they still have to kill to live? Because, y'know, that sorta, kinda qualifies as the virus controlling their actions. Hell, your entire argument depends on the virus controlling their actions, an argument Fortis just shot to pieces.

Fortis explains a person infected needs to kill to live at page 18, then at page 22 elaborates that the Hucks don't. Telling Touma he will get used to killing is because that's what the Hucks do.

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Edit: As far as the TSAB goes, I don't see why it would fail. It could technically work in real life, too.
Ideally, yes. But this isn't an ideal world, and not everyone is ready to swallow being effectively ruled by a few gifted people. Ditto for gun control.
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:37   Link #232
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:50   Link #233
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Kaijo's right. Fortis says that those infected with the virus need to kill to live or else they become lumps of flesh.

All the Huckebein are infected with the virus, so that applies to all of them.

Fortis says they have a method of making sure the virus doesn't control them. This is likely to mean they can avoid going on uncontrollable killing frenzies. We can see such a thing going on in Thoma's case where he is not in control of his actions.

We also don't know what this method is. I imagine most think of it as some sort of medical injection, but perhaps their method is killing on a regular basis?
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:52   Link #234
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So here's the deal: Does the virus control their actions? You say yes, Fortis says no.

I'm inclined to believe the person actually infected here.
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:55   Link #235
Justin_Brett
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Wait, isn't Touma's case largely due to the book? It seems to be the one in charge now as far as judging what's a threat.
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Old 2011-02-12, 15:59   Link #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Uh-huh, and where does it say they still have to kill to live? Because, y'know, that sorta, kinda qualifies as the virus controlling their actions. Hell, your entire argument depends on the virus controlling their actions, an argument Fortis just shot to pieces.

Fortis explains a person infected needs to kill to live at page 18, then at page 22 elaborates that the Hucks don't. Telling Touma he will get used to killing is because that's what the Hucks do.
Fortis: "When there is a request or bounty involved, when weapons are drawn against us or when someone interferes with our goal, when infected people such as us need to do so in order to survive, we will exterminate them without hesitation."

Fortis is rattling off a list, and he specifically mentions "infected" and counts it as a separate list item. I don't know how much clearer than that you can get, unless you want to go to the original Japanese. Maybe ask Nagumo to take a look at that section. When infected need to kill in order to survive, they will do so.

Hell, Touma himself immediately asked about that: "In order to survive? What do you mean by that?" and that's when Fortis further clarified than an EC-infected has to kill to maintain sanity and life, or else their regeneration goes out of control and they become lumps of flesh.

Or else, why did Veyron presumably kill those nuns? He didn't have to, and Fortis said they don't kill unnecessarily. Veyron could have intercepted Touma before he reached the church, or just watched and waited. Instead, he told Touma that he had to kill because Touma was late.

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Ideally, yes. But this isn't an ideal world, and not everyone is ready to swallow being effectively ruled by a few gifted people. Ditto for gun control.
Hello to every dictatorship ever? The UK and Japan do fine with gun control (and they aren't the only ones). You'd be surprised what people will live under. Hell, the Egyptians lived under their dictator for 30 years, and they only revolted due to rising unemployment and food prices. Keep your subjects happy and well-fed, and you can rule however you like for as long as you like.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:17   Link #237
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Are we going back to that argument of good vs evil again?

Are we?

Let's get all our facts straight, right now.

*Looking at Force Manga right now.*

Chapter 8, page 17, Fortis says that Touma would have to kill to keep his sanity and be able to keep functioning. "An EC Infected person cannot live without killing."

Chapter 8, Page 19, Fortis shows off a lump of flesh.

Chapter 8, Page 20, Touma realizes that those were the same lumps of flesh in that facility he saved Lily from.

Fortis: Self-Destruction is the result of your regeneration going out of control and becoming a simple lump of flesh.

chapter 8, Page 22: Fortis tells Touma that they can suppress the Virus.

Chapter 8, Page 23: Fortis tells Touma that he doesn't have to join, but they'd feel safer with more comrades.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:24   Link #238
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The current debate isn't about good or evil. This is just about whether the Huck's need to kill to survive. An EC infected person will lose sanity AND life if they don't kill.

The partial cure allows them to keep control, so it only affects the sanity part. In order to stay alive, they still need to kill.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:29   Link #239
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Which would mean the virus still controls their actions.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:34   Link #240
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Which would mean the virus still controls their actions.
YES...

And no.

they still have to kill under its influence, yes, but they get to keep their sanity and don't need to kill as often without the partial cure.

Can we agree to this at least?
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