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Old 2011-02-12, 16:35   Link #241
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Hello to every dictatorship ever? The UK and Japan do fine with gun control (and they aren't the only ones). You'd be surprised what people will live under. Hell, the Egyptians lived under their dictator for 30 years, and they only revolted due to rising unemployment and food prices. Keep your subjects happy and well-fed, and you can rule however you like for as long as you like.
I've got to agree with Kaijo on this, this tired old chestnut that the TSAB must be ripe for a revolution because they have gun control comes off as extremely ignorant whenever it gets trotted out. Universe is not America.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:35   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which would mean the virus still controls their actions.
But not in an overt fashion like Thoma right now.

If they did have a way to remove the need to kill to live bit, then there's absolutely no down side to being infected, is there? There's no reason they couldn't have said "Hey kid, you're gonna die if you don't kill, but we have a way that you can live and not have to kill!" If they said that, Thoma would be all for that I'm sure.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:36   Link #243
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which would mean the virus still controls their actions.
If the cure allowed them to live without killing, then it would be a full cure. They are still infected.

We have examples in the difference, since Touma IS being controlled by his infection. It's what caused his emo-shout in the first place.

You're being a bit pedantic in your interpretation. If we took your reasoning, we can apply it in so many other places, such as: We are all controlled by our need for food. Our hungry stomachs force us to eat! We are all controlled by our lungs; we must breathe to live!

Sure, you can choose to not eat, but then you'd die, just like the Hucks can choose not to kill, and thus turn into a lump of flesh. So the virus doesn't directly control them anymore, but it still means they are forced to make a choice.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:41   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I've got to agree with Kaijo on this, this tired old chestnut that the TSAB must be ripe for a revolution
It's NOT gun control! I said nepotism and rampant favoritism. Even Hayate lampshades the bias in favor of mages when it comes to promotions.

A low ranked non-mage with no familial connections in the TSAB have the right to be angry and cynical when he see cases like Fate and Ginga.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:45   Link #245
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
It's NOT gun control! I said nepotism and rampant favoritism. Even Hayate lampshades the bias in favor of mages when it comes to promotions.

A low ranked non-mage with no familial connections in the TSAB have the right to be angry and cynical when he see cases like Fate and Ginga.
To be fair about Ginga, she's only a Sergent.

...

I believe.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:46   Link #246
TheRainbowConnection
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
The colonies are Administrated Worlds. They are under TSAB jurisdiction.
I was referring to Hayate's retort to Stella's rant. I found it interesting that it wasn't "We are chasing you for those crimes that you did commit in Administrated Worlds". I would've been totally fine with that. Instead, Hayate answered that "The weight of human assets, including lives, transcend areas of administration." I mean, that's pretty much saying "we are going to play World Police, regardless of jurisdiction". Now, the question is: Is this Hayate talking out of her own beliefs, or is this her parroting TSAB policy? And what exactly is the scope of Section 6's mandate? Chapter 8 says "A special team has been formed to take the matter into their own hands and proceed with investigations." What's "take the matter into their own hands"? The first thing that popped into my mind when I read that phrase was the idea of an extrajudicial group largely free from oversight. This being a Nanoha series, I highly doubt our heroes are gonna go black ops/Inquisitor anytime soon, but still. They are allowed to use mass-based weapons. What else are they allowed to do?

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I want to believe that this was all a probing mission, but chapter 8 indicates that Hayate had a "we'll end this right here, right now" mindset.
Not quite. And I quote, "Skipper! If we let them escape, there may not be a next time." It doesn't imply a final showdown, but it does imply that Hayate wants to bring the fight to the Huckebein while they still can. I guess the Huckebein ship is pretty stealthy, though how they initially found the Huckebein baseship (and why they may not do it again), god only knows. In any case, she needed to force some sort of confrontation in order to make any headway. They're having crap luck finding a singular Huckebein and being able to mount enough concentration of force to face it that I guess Hayate made the decision to pit concentrated force against concentrated force. Whether or not this was the right choice is up for debate. Certainly, it's nowhere close to a victory, but TSAB forces attained vital data on the enemy. I would love to see how this affects Hayate's career and field responsibilities, but the politics of military promotion committees is waaaaaay outside the scope of Tsuzuki's abilities.
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Old 2011-02-12, 16:58   Link #247
Justin_Brett
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*shrug*

Hayate's Neutral Good. I prefer not to pick apart the justifications of heroes being, well, heroes, myself. The Hucks could conceivably be a threat to everyone and anyone, really - what country would object to someone doing everything they could to hunt them down?

And again, isn't it the deadly artifact that perceives everything as a threat that's making Touma attack things?
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:01   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
It's NOT gun control! I said nepotism and rampant favoritism. Even Hayate lampshades the bias in favor of mages when it comes to promotions.
So what? North Korea has nepotism and favoritism. Is it ripe for revolution? Well, the people don't seem to be in any hurry.

While it may not be good, per se, it is not the leading cause of revolutions; hunger is. Even the Egyptian people, under a dictator for 30 years, didn't revolt because Hosni planned to have his son take over. They revolted because of food prices and unemployment. Sure, people may hate their government, but they won't take steps to end it unless things are really bad.

Really, Sheba, you're overstating the problem here.

And really, your claims of nepotism are overstated, too. The TSAB allows family to work together, because that makes for happier people. But the brain council are more dictators than anything else, and have no heirs to pass leadership onto. They just wanted to rule forever, and the 3 honorary old mages were figureheads without any heirs they planned to pass things onto. People still earned their positions in the TSAB based upon ability.

Sure, I suppose you could call the TSAB a powderkeg and ripe for revolution... but you could say the same about the US. Or Switzerland. Or the UK. No matter where you go, things could look "ripe for revolution" because some people are unhappy with things. But any student of history knows that it ain't gonna happen unless enough people are out of work and/or hungry.

Hayate had no familial connections in the TSAB, either. She earned her position, having had to fight up to it despite the stigma of the Book of Darkness lingering over her. She had friends, though. But that's the same no matter where you go; a lot of your success is based on who you know.

So really, the TSAB is even more like real life. ^_~

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
And again, isn't it the deadly artifact that perceives everything as a threat that's making Touma attack things?
I'd say it is at least part of it. It's a book, quite similar to Karen's, another EC-infected person. She seems to have good control, though. At any rate, Fortis did talk about sanity, and I think it is fairly clear Touma is losing his.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:17   Link #249
TheRainbowConnection
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Hayate's Neutral Good. I prefer not to pick apart the justifications of heroes being, well, heroes, myself.
Well, that's all fine and dandy when the heroes are beholden to no one but themselves. But slap them into an organization where their ranks sorta puts them at the military-equivalent of middle management? Things get more interesting. Organizations are fascinating entities.

Bah! I'm just a person who loves bureaucracy and social psychology. Unfortunately for me, the dysfunctional bureaucracy was the least favorite part of StrikerS for pretty much everyone else in the fanbase, so I doubt Tsuzuki is going to spend too much time dwelling on that.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
The Hucks could conceivably be a threat to everyone and anyone, really - what country would object to someone doing everything they could to hunt them down?
Politics are way more complicated than that. What about civilizations with mass-based weapons? Or groups/worlds who are opposed to the TSAB?
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:31   Link #250
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That's where Enforcer Fate comes in, if she cant charm you she just "befriends" you until you submit.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:38   Link #251
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Originally Posted by jdennis007 View Post
That's where Enforcer Fate comes in, if she cant charm you she just "befriends" you until you submit.
But, Nanoha does the befriending.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:46   Link #252
Justin_Brett
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Hey, -I- liked that subplot.

And I dunno, but if the alternative is having the Hucks just doing their thing on a planet you control, they'd probably be more willing to work something out. Lesser of two evils sort of thing.

I'm leaning more towards it being entirely the Book, at least as far as the berserker mode goes. How would a virus make the sort of judgement that it's using? Unless all the Dividers are like that, which would sort of lessen Touma's uniqueness.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:52   Link #253
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That's where Enforcer Fate comes in, if she cant charm you she just "befriends" you until you submit.
mm, I like that thought.

On a side note, I cant stop laughing at Deville's new look. Excessive much?
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:11   Link #254
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
YES...

And no.

they still have to kill under its influence, yes, but they get to keep their sanity and don't need to kill as often without the partial cure.

Can we agree to this at least?
Afraid not, because being 'forced' to do something means not being in control of what you do. It means an exterior (well, interior in this case, virus and all) force controls what you do.

Fortis first explained what the eclipse virus does. Then he explained that the virus doesn't control their actions. It's like saying "grabbing a bowl from the oven burns your hands, but I have oven mitts." Anyone without the mitts would still burn their hands, but since you have mitts, you're okie-day.
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:17   Link #255
Kaijo
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Afraid not, because being 'forced' to do something means not being in control of what you do. It means an exterior (well, interior in this case, virus and all) force controls what you do.

Fortis first explained what the eclipse virus does. Then he explained that the virus doesn't control their actions. It's like saying "grabbing a bowl from the oven burns your hands, but I have oven mitts." Anyone without the mitts would still burn their hands, but since you have mitts, you're okie-day.
Wrong analogy. I'll repeat the one I used, using your reasoning.

We aren't forced to eat food. We have a choice. Of course, not eating food will lead to our deaths, but we have the choice! But we aren't forced to eat. Food, and our stomach, has no control over us.

Technically, this would be right, which is where you are coming from. But it is still a choice between living and dying.
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:47   Link #256
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by TheRainbowConnection View Post
"The weight of human assets, including lives, transcend areas of administration."

Now, the question is: Is this Hayate talking out of her own beliefs, or is this her parroting TSAB policy? And what exactly is the scope of Section 6's mandate?
TSAB policy. What she's quoting is basically what Chrono did back on TOS and A's

Quote:
Not quite. And I quote, "Skipper! If we let them escape, there may not be a next time." It doesn't imply a final showdown, but it does imply that Hayate wants to bring the fight to the Huckebein while they still can. I guess the Huckebein ship is pretty stealthy, though how they initially found the Huckebein baseship (and why they may not do it again), god only knows. In any case, she needed to force some sort of confrontation in order to make any headway. They're having crap luck finding a singular Huckebein and being able to mount enough concentration of force to face it that I guess Hayate made the decision to pit concentrated force against concentrated force. Whether or not this was the right choice is up for debate. Certainly, it's nowhere close to a victory, but TSAB forces attained vital data on the enemy.
Ah, but then after Touma fired Zero Eclipse, showing the capability to disable everyone, including Huckebein, what was our brave officers decision?

Divide our forces, one to somehow(?) neutralize Krytonite Boy, the other to protect the ship while Hayate nuke the ship. That's not a mere probing mission anymore.

Now if this is Hayate's first mission it might be understandable, but for someone claimed to have plenty experience? It's not reckless anymore, it's hubris. Or Magical Girl-ish.

Quote:
I would love to see how this affects Hayate's career and field responsibilities, but the politics of military promotion committees is waaaaaay outside the scope of Tsuzuki's abilities.
Well that's something we could agree on.

Promotion based on individual strength is just so...medieval.
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Old 2011-02-12, 18:53   Link #257
Keroko
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Wrong analogy. I'll repeat the one I used, using your reasoning.

We aren't forced to eat food. We have a choice. Of course, not eating food will lead to our deaths, but we have the choice! But we aren't forced to eat. Food, and our stomach, has no control over us.

Technically, this would be right, which is where you are coming from. But it is still a choice between living and dying.
By that reasoning, there is no way anyone can be forced to do anything. Not even the eclipse virus can force one to kill, since you could choose to shrivel up and die. Yet, the word 'forcing' exists, therefore it can be applied.

The dictionary definition of forcing:

"to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something.
to put or impose (something or someone) forcibly on or upon a person.
to compel by force; overcome the resistance of: to force acceptance of something."


Our stomach rumbles, compelling us to eat. By dictionary definition, we are forced to eat food. The very definition of forcing means that if there is a detrimental effect to not obeying, you are forced to do it. Can you opt not to? Sure, though you suffer the results of not doing so.

If the virus tells them 'kill or die' it's no different from a guy standing behind you with a gun saying 'kill or die.' You are forced to kill. You are controlled by the guy pointing the gun at you. If the eclipse virus forces them to kill, then they are controlled by the virus. Plain and simple.

Fortis says the virus does not control their actions, therefore they have no need to kill to survive.

Well, beyond eating and all...
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:14   Link #258
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Hey, that's your reasoning not mine. Let's look at what happens before the cure: They don't kill, and they end up going insane and then turn into lumps of flesh.

See? They had a choice before as well. So if they had a choice before, then the cure doesn't do what you think it does.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:23   Link #259
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
It's NOT gun control! I said nepotism and rampant favoritism. Even Hayate lampshades the bias in favor of mages when it comes to promotions.

A low ranked non-mage with no familial connections in the TSAB have the right to be angry and cynical when he see cases like Fate and Ginga.
Sorry, Fate failed the Enforcer test how many times? And is how valuable an asset? She clearly did not just got shooed into her position to pull down a salary while doing nothing like people in actual nepotistic systems.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
By that reasoning, there is no way anyone can be forced to do anything. Not even the eclipse virus can force one to kill, since you could choose to shrivel up and die. Yet, the word 'forcing' exists, therefore it can be applied.

The dictionary definition of forcing:

"to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something.
to put or impose (something or someone) forcibly on or upon a person.
to compel by force; overcome the resistance of: to force acceptance of something."


Our stomach rumbles, compelling us to eat. By dictionary definition, we are forced to eat food. The very definition of forcing means that if there is a detrimental effect to not obeying, you are forced to do it. Can you opt not to? Sure, though you suffer the results of not doing so.

If the virus tells them 'kill or die' it's no different from a guy standing behind you with a gun saying 'kill or die.' You are forced to kill. You are controlled by the guy pointing the gun at you. If the eclipse virus forces them to kill, then they are controlled by the virus. Plain and simple.

Fortis says the virus does not control their actions, therefore they have no need to kill to survive.

Well, beyond eating and all...
You can't use a highly specific definition of one word and then say that that is exactly what a person who used a different word meant.

Fortis admitted the Hucks retain agency, no more and no less.
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Old 2011-02-12, 19:37   Link #260
Keroko
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You can't use a highly specific definition of one word and then say that that is exactly what a person who used a different word meant.

Fortis admitted the Hucks retain agency, no more and no less.
Fortis says the Hucks can move without the virus controlling their actions. I would say the entire 'kill to live' bit is a rather hefty control of ones actions.

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Hey, that's your reasoning not mine. Let's look at what happens before the cure: They don't kill, and they end up going insane and then turn into lumps of flesh.

See? They had a choice before as well. So if they had a choice before, then the cure doesn't do what you think it does.
And following that particular string of logic, the virus can't be blamed for the actions of the Hucks.
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