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Old 2011-02-17, 10:04   Link #3001
LuckyCat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
That's true for the Frieza arc too...Goku dies, Frieza dies, everybody lives happy on earth, the end.
His point was without changing anything. Goku lived, and Vegeta was on Earth. If it ended like that, there would still be a lot of questions, not the least of which is whether Gohan was ready to protect the Earth.
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Old 2011-02-17, 11:12   Link #3002
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife View Post
Bear in mind that Toriyama never wanted to write the Buu saga in the first place, and this update is his "Director's Cut" take on the franchise.
That's the most moronic logic in existence. Toriyama didn't originally intend for the series to go past the first time they gather the Dragon Balls either, so by that rationale Kai shouldn't even exist or at best it would've been of the original series and only the Pilaf arc.

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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
There's no need to reanimate the series when it still looks pretty damn good even when compared to the shows that we see now.
This. And especially after seeing how disgustingly bland and artificial the modern art style looks in an actual episode in the remade Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans OVA in Raging Blast 2, I'd really rather not see anymore of it. I guess it looks good in the OP because it's just a minute of animation with very high production values, but if it were there all the time it would surely get pretty bad IMO. The classic art has so much more personality and Dragon Ball feel.
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Old 2011-02-17, 15:51   Link #3003
Ahiru77
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
This. And especially after seeing how disgustingly bland and artificial the modern art style looks in an actual episode in the remade Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans OVA in Raging Blast 2, I'd really rather not see anymore of it. I guess it looks good in the OP because it's just a minute of animation with very high production values, but if it were there all the time it would surely get pretty bad IMO. The classic art has so much more personality and Dragon Ball feel.
Here, here!!

The art looks exquisite even after all these years. Toriyama and the anime staff back then should be proud of themselves.
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Old 2011-02-18, 04:32   Link #3004
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Though it may be true that Dragon Balls art from back then is pretty smooth even now, the fact remains there would be a much better visual if they re-animated it. Way better techniques then back then, more colors to use, and better animation over all.

DBZ if re-animated would have been just as good, but more likely better then its classic form.
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Old 2011-02-18, 04:44   Link #3005
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by Lumir View Post
the fact remains there would be a much better visual if they re-animated it.
I disagree with that, for reasons Endless Twilight brought up in his last post.
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Old 2011-02-18, 05:34   Link #3006
Yui Is My Wife
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
I disagree with that, for reasons Endless Twilight brought up in his last post.
Goku getting trapped on Namek blowing up and fighting Freeza EVERY FRICKNG DAY until Gohan does his homework....

....shiver.

Sorry, when I saw "Endless Twighling", I suddenly thought of "Endless Eight" from Haruhi, THE most infamous recent example of how "Reanimating something does NOT make it better."
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Old 2011-02-18, 11:18   Link #3007
MushroomSamba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumir View Post
Though it may be true that Dragon Balls art from back then is pretty smooth even now, the fact remains there would be a much better visual if they re-animated it. Way better techniques then back then, more colors to use, and better animation over all.

DBZ if re-animated would have been just as good, but more likely better then its classic form.
I strongly, strongly disagree with this. Animation techniques may be different these days, but that does NOT mean they're always necessarily better. It's really a matter of taste...as a person who grew up on 80's and 90's anime, I much prefer the hand-drawn look of the original series to the digitized stuff they used in the OP and ED. Animators didn't make the switch because it's the superior art form, they did it because it's more practical and makes their lives a whole lot easier.

And secondly, expecting them to re-animate everything is just absurd. There's no such thing as a long-winding shounen series with stunning animation every episode...it's just not reasonable. The amount of effort and hours they'd have to put in would mean it'd never be able to keep the weekly schedule. Even modern day ones like Naruto still see their dips.
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Old 2011-02-18, 13:27   Link #3008
Blaat
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Originally Posted by MushroomSamba View Post
I much prefer the hand-drawn look of the original series to the digitized stuff they used in the OP and ED.
Erm anime is still drawn by hand , colouring is digitized though as is animating it.
Whether or not they should have redrawn complete episode depends on the individual episode IMO, for example in the last episode the Gohan vs Cell Jr, looked great no need to reanimate it. Gohan vs Cell later in the episode on the other hand looked really poor and redrawing could have helped.
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Old 2011-02-18, 14:03   Link #3009
MushroomSamba
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Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
Erm anime is still drawn by hand , colouring is digitized though as is animating it.
Whether or not they should have redrawn complete episode depends on the individual episode IMO, for example in the last episode the Gohan vs Cell Jr, looked great no need to reanimate it. Gohan vs Cell later in the episode on the other hand looked really poor and redrawing could have helped.
There was a time where it was just cel animation with things hand-drawn frame-by-frame, but these days practically everything is computer-assisted or uses cgi shortcuts. It can result in a pretty noticeable difference in style at times (though I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other...just different).

EDIT: And btw, do any of you happen to know if the show's been doing well in Japan? Just curious to see how it's being received and if DBZ still holds any brand power these days.
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Old 2011-02-18, 15:12   Link #3010
ChainLegacy
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My take with this discussion is, if we had modern-day animation, we'd likely have a more consistent quality of animation. The old style really jumps all over the place sometimes, especially with the different animating teams they used.

On the other hand, I think modern day anime tends to have really soul-less, bland art. There are definitely exceptions, but the way I see it the majority look completely devoid of personality or individual artistic touch. There's something to say about the fact that, even though this is an action cartoon, art is still art. The modern way may be more efficient and polished, but the human element of artwork can't be undervalued. And I feel that it has become undervalued in modern anime, and even moreso in modern animated television in the US. You can see the personality in the characters with the old art. But even the brief glimpses of the new art that we sometimes get in the mid-episode still and opening/ending music seems less 'human' somehow. It's really an entirely subjective experience, but that makes sense because art itself is subjectively enjoyed. So there's my two cents. This would make an interesting, more general topic in the "general anime" section as well.
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Old 2011-02-18, 15:36   Link #3011
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The different animation teams that worked on the episodes of DBZ worked quite well, though they kinda clash together in Kai because we're seeing two episodes in one most of the time. I'm surprised it hasn't bothered me at all, though i wouldn't be surprised how many people would bring that issue up.
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Old 2011-02-18, 19:24   Link #3012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
The different animation teams that worked on the episodes of DBZ worked quite well, though they kinda clash together in Kai because we're seeing two episodes in one most of the time. I'm surprised it hasn't bothered me at all, though i wouldn't be surprised how many people would bring that issue up.
It was a lot worse early on in the show that it is at this particular point. When we get to the android saga the clashes are mostly resolved because the teams got more evenly matched but that's just my take on it.
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Old 2011-02-18, 20:05   Link #3013
LuckyCat
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Originally Posted by MushroomSamba View Post
btw, do any of you happen to know if the show's been doing well in Japan? Just curious to see how it's being received and if DBZ still holds any brand power these days.
The weekly ratings I've read have put DBKai consistently in the top 5 for anime in Japan (usually 9-11%). Occasionally, it gets pushed off the chart by a special, but for episodes like Vegeta going Super Saiyan and Gohan's SSJ2 transformation Kai's ratings jump above titans such as One Piece and Detective Conan.
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Old 2011-02-18, 23:02   Link #3014
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Nowadays, many anime viewers are spoiled by modern artwork/animation. Anything that looks remotely old/dated is rejected by them. They concentrate too much on the aesthetics and not enough on the substance of the show. It's a real pity, because that's a poor way of analyzing the quality of a series.

Also, anything that looks "eccentric" isn't appreciated as much. One Piece is a perfect example.
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Old 2011-02-18, 23:05   Link #3015
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
There's no need to reanimate the series when it still looks pretty damn good even when compared to the shows that we see now.
I don't know about that...the dips in animation multiple times in Gohan vs. Cell was irritating...it was like 3 different animation teams took turns. I like consistency in my animation, if it's not going to be completely consistent...let it be not so glaringly obvious. Gohan vs. Cell Jr's was better than Gohan vs. Cell...what kind of crap is that?

Of course the show looked like fuckwin awesome back in the day...kinda like Thundercats, then we got older and watched it again....FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. One can still appreciate a series while criticizing it.
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Old 2011-02-19, 05:20   Link #3016
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
It was a lot worse early on in the show that it is at this particular point. When we get to the android saga the clashes are mostly resolved because the teams got more evenly matched but that's just my take on it.
I wouldn't say "a lot worse", though it really just depends on how you feel about old animation. I personally loved the look of the start of the series, which was very reminiscent of the last arc of the original Dragon ball adaptation.
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Old 2011-02-19, 05:56   Link #3017
j0x
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Nowadays, many anime viewers are spoiled by modern artwork/animation. Anything that looks remotely old/dated is rejected by them. They concentrate too much on the aesthetics and not enough on the substance of the show. It's a real pity, because that's a poor way of analyzing the quality of a series.

Also, anything that looks "eccentric" isn't appreciated as much. One Piece is a perfect example.
because anime is just the word of the japanese to animation so its no surprise people will like more visual quality

but then again shows like Freezing, Bleach fillers and Naruto fillers and lot of moe/ecchi anime that are not animated good are still watched a lot of days so i do not know if what your saying is the reality too

One Piece is at least consistently animated imo, nice series although im overwhelmed by the amount of episodes it has, so that is the reason i only watch random episodes
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:42   Link #3018
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by ckmox View Post
because anime is just the word of the japanese to animation so its no surprise people will like more visual quality
And this visual quality appears to be what many viewers are predominantly interested in. It's the decisive factor in determining whether or not they'll watch something. They don't bother looking beyond that layer, and thus they don't get to examine the most important thing: substance.

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Originally Posted by ckmox View Post
but then again shows like Freezing, Bleach fillers and Naruto fillers and lot of moe/ecchi anime that are not animated good are still watched a lot of days so i do not know if what your saying is the reality too
Animation and artwork are two very different things. The latter is what many viewers are most concerned about. If something doesn't look "pretty", there's a good possibility it'll be dismissed by many viewers today. And did you not read my post? You just proved my point about those very viewers watching crap all because they're so focused on the exterior layer (artwork/animation) of the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckmox View Post
One Piece is at least consistently animated imo
You're wrong. One Piece is also done by Toei Animation (the same company that did DragonBall). That being said, it also has various styles of animation/artwork because of the different teams working on the series.
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Old 2011-02-19, 18:17   Link #3019
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Nowadays, many anime viewers are spoiled by modern artwork/animation. Anything that looks remotely old/dated is rejected by them. They concentrate too much on the aesthetics and not enough on the substance of the show. It's a real pity, because that's a poor way of analyzing the quality of a series.

Also, anything that looks "eccentric" isn't appreciated as much. One Piece is a perfect example.
Indeed, as I said in my last post, even though older anime is less consistent and polished I personally (on top of what you said) like animation from that time period better because it actually felt a bit more like actual art (to me). I think one can draw parallels between this subject and the appeal of old vs. new video games as well. The only old anime I've ever tried to get people to watch is Maison Ikkoku, which is only a few years older than me but most everyone is turned off by the art. It's silly because the art is of marginal importance and even then why does it have to be of perfect quality to be appreciated? For instance it may not be as shiny and polished as modern anime, but the artists in that series were phenomenal at animating subtle facial expressions that added another element of realism.

In the case of Dragonball, I just think the art has a very unique appeal that I've always associated with the show. So there might be some nostalgia goggling involved, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I really just can't stomach the modern animation they show sometimes in the stills, undoubtedly superior in quality but alien and 'soulless' in their feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
The different animation teams that worked on the episodes of DBZ worked quite well, though they kinda clash together in Kai because we're seeing two episodes in one most of the time. I'm surprised it hasn't bothered me at all, though i wouldn't be surprised how many people would bring that issue up.
Well in my case, I've definitely noticed it but I really could care less, as the above part of my post explains.
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Old 2011-02-19, 18:39   Link #3020
Vicious108
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You've got to be REALLY unperceptive not to notice when a Kai episode switches over to what was a new episode in DBZ. This last episode was one of the most glaring examples too, with Gohan vs Cell Jrs. having superb art but then when it was Cell's turn the art work became that much more lackluster.

Another really obvious one would be when Trunks kills Freeza, cutting him in half with amazing art work, but then finishing the job with a crappy one due to a much worse animation team.

But yeah with that being said, it doesn't really bother me much either.
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