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Old 2011-02-18, 00:31   Link #381
Phibrizzo
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Ehhh I actually like Ipos :P but let me check a bit more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eligos Eligos sounds good if u want a war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilu_%28mythology%29 Lilu while is babylonian is basically the model of female demon, corruptors, and soul eating sucubus (and probably the model of Lilith)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan A more well know demon of the Envy, rather fitting for a setting about wanting power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belial Now this is a good candidate, he tries to give power to the worthless (specially mages)
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Old 2011-02-18, 00:37   Link #382
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Leviathan is also sometimes known as a Dragon right? That might be something...

Hmmm... What about more demons that were originally Pagan deities? That might be an interesting angle to focus on.
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Old 2011-02-18, 00:50   Link #383
Phibrizzo
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Oppps >< of that kind, are hard to find mainly because those are "neutral" or "good" gods that dont fit on the christian doctrine (ask for sacrificies, etc, etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch Moloch is consider a demon, but I dont actually find him to fit the model
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Old 2011-02-18, 00:58   Link #384
shmaster
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Not famous? Then the 72 demon from the Lesser Key of Solomon is out, as well as the more popular pagan Baal gods. But they are also the one who has more distinct power and clear documentation on what they do.

If you want less popular ones, I recommend Adramelech, a Baal god of Sepharvaim. He is a sun god, but at time equated to Anu and Moloch. Basically he is viewed as a deity who presides over sky and fire.
Appears as a mule or Peacock or both.

A minister and chancellor of Order of Fly (Southern Cross) that is founded by Beelzebub, and a president of Hell's senate. He is also the supervisor of Satan's wardrobe. He was defeated by Uriel and Raphael in Paradise Lost.

And my other recommendation is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choronzon
How about making this thing into a demon from the Aeon of Horus?
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Old 2011-02-18, 01:35   Link #385
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@Phibrizzo

It's okay if they are originally good or neutral, it can make it looks like they are victims themselves of human's corruption.

@Shmaster
Well, I'm certain not ALL 72 demons are equally popular The general idea is weird funky names that nobody has heard off

I'm currently stuck at work, I'll give your suggestions a good hard study once I get back home.

What do your think of Satanachia and Agaliarept? Both are super high ranking demons that are rumored to be directly under Lucifer.

Agaliarept - A general with the power to uncover secrets and reveal mysteries. Academy City is like the headquarter of secrecy.


Satanachia - Has the power to subjugate all women and girls, and to do with them whatever he wishes... I don't know what to do with this but it sounds like fun.
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Old 2011-02-18, 01:48   Link #386
Marcus H.
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Hecate is a Roman goddess classified as a demon. She is portrayed as a woman with three heads and is the goddess linked with magic and crossroads.
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Old 2011-02-18, 03:38   Link #387
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Agaliarept and Satanachia? Lucifer's henchmen from Grimoirium Verum?? I would say they are good choice, they are powerful, good enough to let Lucifer give them the authority over Astaroth. At the same time, not that popular.

Though in the case to seduce woman, I would say Beleth is a better choice than Satanachia. An incredibly powerful king of hell who is very hard to commend, who gives all the love that his summoner demands.
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Old 2011-02-18, 06:29   Link #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
And my other recommendation is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choronzon
How about making this thing into a demon from the Aeon of Horus?
Choronzon looks really promising...

...In fact, it looks so promising it would totally force me to rewrite everything to surround it No serious, Choronzon deserve it's own plotline so I'll leave it out of this one.

P.S - If Aiwass is Crowley's Angel, would that make Choronzon the Devil?
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:58   Link #389
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Wow, this thread is really underused huh? Let's see if we can get something rolling...


I had a small discussion with Flere before about this, but basically I'm thinking about using a new kind of Grimoire for a future story of mine. The idea is that it's a 'Synthetic' or 'Compound' Grimoire stitched together using pieces from various original Grimoires- The ones I had in mind were [Le Veritable Dragon Rouge], [Clavis Salomonis], and [Pseudomonarchia Daemonum] to name a few.

I'm planning to have the Synthetic Grimoire be used as a sort of Hatchery for a brand new 'Demon' fused together using parts of other demons from those other books. My 'Demons' in this sense isn't really a creature at all, they are more like 'living representations' of a spell. That was the impression I got while researching about them. The difference is that demons have their own rules and 'personality' and very specific magic that they have power over. So the whole point of this 'Hatchery' is to breed a whole new demon with new rules and 'personality' altogether, which is kinda similar to writing a spell.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Any particular Grimoire or Demon that you think I should use?
From? The Greek concept of Daemon?

Try Dantalian? After all it IS the demon of knowledge...
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:03   Link #390
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From? The Greek concept of Daemon?
From wiki to be honest... No really, I was just reading through the 72 Goetia demons and notice that magicians summon them to do certain tasks and alot of their powers and conditions are kinda specific and most of them don't sound evil at all.
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:24   Link #391
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
From wiki to be honest... No really, I was just reading through the 72 Goetia demons and notice that magicians summon them to do certain tasks and alot of their powers and conditions are kinda specific and most of them don't sound evil at all.
That's what they all say...
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:38   Link #392
Marcus H.
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Well, in the original sense, the word daemon simply meant "guardian spirit".
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Old 2011-02-18, 22:33   Link #393
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Choronzon looks really promising...

...In fact, it looks so promising it would totally force me to rewrite everything to surround it No serious, Choronzon deserve it's own plotline so I'll leave it out of this one.

P.S - If Aiwass is Crowley's Angel, would that make Choronzon the Devil?
If compared to Aiwass, thus defining it by the Thelema doctrine, it'll the personified element of the Thelema Abyss.

Consider crossing the Abyss is an important task for Thelemites to rise in rank. One cannot ascend into the rank of 8=2 (which is the bare minimum rank to become a Secret Chief) unless crossing the Abyss first.

It'll be a good idea to portray Choronzon as Aleister's destined obstacle before he reach the higher realm, as Aleister in the novel hasn't hit the rank of 8=2 yet.
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Old 2011-02-20, 20:51   Link #394
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If compared to Aiwass, thus defining it by the Thelema doctrine, it'll the personified element of the Thelema Abyss.

Consider crossing the Abyss is an important task for Thelemites to rise in rank. One cannot ascend into the rank of 8=2 (which is the bare minimum rank to become a Secret Chief) unless crossing the Abyss first.

It'll be a good idea to portray Choronzon as Aleister's destined obstacle before he reach the higher realm, as Aleister in the novel hasn't hit the rank of 8=2 yet.
What's this ranking you speak of?

Also, from what I could understand from the funky english use to describe Choronzon, his purpose is to break a person down to his raw ID (Psychology) and what? build them up from scratch?

Anyway as the so-called "Demon of Dispersion" it is described by Crowley as a temporary personification of the raving and inconsistent forces that occupy the Abyss.

I hate to say it, but could this be another canidate for the unknown power in that guy?
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Old 2011-02-20, 23:16   Link #395
shmaster
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Here is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4

To be a Secret Chief, you need at least the rank of Magister Templi. And you can't reach that rank unless crossing Abyss first.
The real life Aleister claimed he had acquired that minimum rank to be a Secret Chief while the novel Aleister hasn't.

Also, Aiwass is in the rank of Ipsissimus.

As for Choronzon, in Aleister's interpretation, it is more of a force of nature than an individual (abyss) mixed with your inner demon (individuality). What inside Abyss is none existent, but Choronzon puts up a contradicting front to appear real and traps people in this illusion between reality and none reality.

Thelemite confronting Choronzon to break away from their ego is the same thing as Buddhist trying to break free from their "self", which is the root of their desire and agony.
When crossing abyss to enter higher realm and when individuality must be leave behind. What is left inside "you" that still wants to be "you" and the surreal elements of Abyss would take the form of Choronzon to prevent you from advancing into the higher realm. That would be Choronzon.
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Old 2011-02-21, 00:02   Link #396
Chaos2Frozen
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Here is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4

To be a Secret Chief, you need at least the rank of Magister Templi. And you can't reach that rank unless crossing Abyss first.
The real life Aleister claimed he had acquired that minimum rank to be a Secret Chief while the novel Aleister hasn't.
Where was this mentioned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Also, Aiwass is in the rank of Ipsissimus.

As for Choronzon, in Aleister's interpretation, it is more of a force of nature than an individual (abyss) mixed with your inner demon (individuality). What inside Abyss is none existent, but Choronzon puts up a contradicting front to appear real and traps people in this illusion between reality and none reality.

Thelemite confronting Choronzon to break away from their ego is the same thing as Buddhist trying to break free from their "self", which is the root of their desire and agony.
When crossing abyss to enter higher realm and when individuality must be leave behind. What is left inside "you" that still wants to be "you" and the surreal elements of Abyss would take the form of Choronzon to prevent you from advancing into the higher realm. That would be Choronzon.
You know all this make Choronzon sound like an evil demon, or some hinder to stop you from 'advancing into the higher realm', but if you look at it the other way- what if Choronzon is actually trying to stop people from losing their humanity?

Anyway, reading through the article I'm reminded of one thing I couldn't get my head around since I watched it- The tree of life is like a rankin systm for all beings right? Is this a toaru thingy only? Because all I keep reading is that Sephirot are meant to represent human state of mind... Or did I get it wrong again?

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2011-02-21 at 00:30.
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Old 2011-02-21, 00:24   Link #397
Asuras
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If you ask me, it's natural to want and need. Losing your humanity means becoming "pure."
Since imperfection is nature (evolution baby), it is therefore unnatural to perfect one self and lose true desire.
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Old 2011-02-21, 00:43   Link #398
shmaster
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Aleister only claimed himself to be a "window" of Secret Chief in the novel, instead of already becoming one. He is more of a proclaimers right now.

It is better to treat the Sephirot as stages or states of god's will that can be interpreted.
Elements of God flow down from the top and the lower it goes the mortal it gets and thus more comprehensible to human.
Then from here you can derive its content and compare it to a lot of things, as it is the gods will that flow down from the Sephirot that leads to the creation. For those that want to ascend to a higher realm, it is like a chart of steps to go up, or the will of god they have attend to.

As for Choronzon, you can interpret it as a protector of individuality. But it won't be something that was done for our sake. Chorozon itself has no content of its own, it is just an aggregation of random elements. It behave as such only because our will enter the Abyss.

And to the magicians who are trying to attend higher rank, they would not interpret this phenomenon as benign, but an evil that binds them to this shallow and incomplete world.

BTW, I am interpreting this from a very narrow Thelema point of view. In other belief system that treats material world as more important, my above statement would not stand.
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Old 2011-02-24, 07:35   Link #399
Cosmic Eagle
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Where was this mentioned?



You know all this make Choronzon sound like an evil demon, or some hinder to stop you from 'advancing into the higher realm', but if you look at it the other way- what if Choronzon is actually trying to stop people from losing their humanity?

Anyway, reading through the article I'm reminded of one thing I couldn't get my head around since I watched it- The tree of life is like a rankin systm for all beings right? Is this a toaru thingy only? Because all I keep reading is that Sephirot are meant to represent human state of mind... Or did I get it wrong again?
The Tree is not a ranking of beings per se...but more of stages in a process, in this case the Jewish concept of the creation of reality. The Sephirot themselves are the ten emanantions through which the formless and infinite Jewish god manifests itself in creation.
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Old 2011-02-24, 07:53   Link #400
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So as a point of reference... Where do Angels and Humans stand?
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