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Old 2011-02-17, 19:24   Link #921
Judoh
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I don't see the need for explaining brocon away. Ryukishi likes making references to stuff like siscon, brocon, lolicon, etc. Especially when it's all of those at once.

Ange's jealousy could also be about how much of Battler's attention Beato gets rather than love.
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Old 2011-02-17, 19:45   Link #922
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About Ange's behaviour in the trick end. From an outsider's perspective, she could have tried doing something else. But, if anyone was in that situation, it was, quite possibly, the best course of action. She knew the role she was playing in the whole deal with the Ushiromiya's wealth and the Sumadera's. Amakusa was carrying illegal weapons a bodyguard wouldn't really need. So, the chances of this whole thing being staged weren't low, but actually rather high. He didn't really have anyone to rely on, other than herself. So, killing Amakusa and Kawabata was a really good course of action. One could say that killing Kawabata was perhaps too much, but given her situation, sparing his life could potentially lead to more danger.

So, even if her reasoning was wrong, the course of action given the situation she was at really wasn't. Or, at least, I wouldn't blame her for her actions.
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Old 2011-02-18, 05:06   Link #923
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
More mostly silly ideas but...

Kyrie's automatic jealousy might have had an influence on Ange's behavior. She might basically believe it's normal to be ridiculously possessive with guys, and to see girls as enemies.

Adding to that, her experience from school certainly would add to seeing other girls as enemies.

She was also raised a bit by Eva, who was horrified to the idea that an Ushiromiya could end up with a servant.

Lastly she spent a major part of her life hating Beatrice.


No need for brocon, and I guess in Umineko we shouldn't underestimate kids' idea of "love", but she was only 6 when he was 18.
Those are pretty much wild explanations that I don't consider even remotely likely.

Anyway during one of the earlier scenes Beatrice tells Battler that she understood why Ange doesn't like her. Battler doesn't get it and Beatrice tells him he doesn't understand a woman's heart (or something like that).

In other words the reason Ange dislikes Beatrice has been pointed out, no need to go on on wild speculations.



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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
About Ange's behaviour in the trick end. From an outsider's perspective, she could have tried doing something else. But, if anyone was in that situation, it was, quite possibly, the best course of action. She knew the role she was playing in the whole deal with the Ushiromiya's wealth and the Sumadera's. Amakusa was carrying illegal weapons a bodyguard wouldn't really need. So, the chances of this whole thing being staged weren't low, but actually rather high. He didn't really have anyone to rely on, other than herself. So, killing Amakusa and Kawabata was a really good course of action. One could say that killing Kawabata was perhaps too much, but given her situation, sparing his life could potentially lead to more danger.

So, even if her reasoning was wrong, the course of action given the situation she was at really wasn't. Or, at least, I wouldn't blame her for her actions.
The best course of action was to avoid being alone with two people she suspected to be in a plot to kill her.
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Old 2011-02-18, 06:39   Link #924
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The best course of action was to avoid being alone with two people she suspected to be in a plot to kill her.
I don't think her "bodyguard" would easily let her escape from him. He's a pro at his work. On the other hand, isolated and deserted island is the best place to get rid of him and occasional witnesses.
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:58   Link #925
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So in your opinion the best course of action for a beginner to go against a pro is to fight him one on one?

She could have called the police and set him up, the mere possession of those weapons would have been enough to incriminate him, and she wouldn't have any need to kill anyone.

Besides you aren't really looking past the immediate. If you think Ange couldn't escape a pro, then you are forgetting that it's okonogi that wanted her dead, and Amakusa is not the only pro in the world.

In the end escaping with Amakusa on her trail or escaping after killing amakusa with any other pro on her trail, doesn't make any difference. She still has a pro looking for her. Actually in the the former case, she'd have a pro on her trail AND the police on her trail. Because Okonogi would certainly testify that Amakusa was her bodyguard and that they were going together to Rokkenjima. Once the police learns that Kawabata disappeared with his boat, they would definitely look for Ange to ask her some questions. Not to mention that there were probably some people witnessing Kawabata's departure from the port.
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Old 2011-02-18, 09:20   Link #926
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I'd think Ange's logic would be to leave Japan entirely. Granted, I have no idea where she plans to go. That's sort of the problem with the sail-into-the-horizon and ride-into-the-sunset endings: Where exactly are they going?
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Old 2011-02-18, 10:16   Link #927
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I wouldn't call it a fight, really.

It's not wise to use the police either, because it's influenced by Sumadera. Kasumi was trying to use it to find Ange, read ep4.

He's not the only pro, but he certainly knows her, her habits, etc the best, so it'd be easier for him than for some random pro to find her. Therefore, killing him is a good move, if you can do it neatly.
That is, if she could even escape by another way in the first place, with him constantly watching over her.

Finally, "life is about self-satisfaction", right? Without doing it, she wouldn't be able to see his face when he was exposed - "guddo" experience for any intellectual rapist.
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Old 2011-02-18, 15:20   Link #928
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There's, of course, the possibility that Ange's consciousness was just sort of DUMPED there in the boat, since her memory includes landing at the actual island; she might not have the option of just escaping from those two.
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Old 2011-02-18, 20:26   Link #929
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
It's not impossible, but the answers would be really silly if you tried to solve it without using Shkanontrice.
I wont accept Shkanontrice just yet. It's viable, but other 'non-silly' theories may exist.

I'll accept that Yasu is on the island, and that Kanon is her extra personality, and that Beatrice is her extra personality as well. Yasukatrice. However, Shannon is another person, who is simply following her master's orders as furniture. That supplies a part of the "howdunnit" for Yasu and "whydunnit" for Shannon.

Shannon was Yasu's ideal. Hence Sayo = Yoshiya backwards when Yasu becomes Kanon, Shannon's counterpart. Shannon's also the person that Yasu could trust the most, and she provides an extra female on the island to dress as Beato and have access to the gold room and it's key. A female to possibly be killed by Kyrie in the EP 7 Tea Party. Yasu waits in Kuwadorian when she isn't playing Kanon.

I raped episode 6. The love duel is a lie, it's actually a love triangle.

Yasu is in love with Battler. The reason Kanon (Yasu) cannot obtain love as long as Shannon lives is because Battler has been paying Shannon all of the attention.

Shannon is in love with Battler. The reason Shannon cannot obtain Battler's love as long as Kanon (Yasu) lives is because Yasu is her master, and it would be the ultimate betrayal of trust.

Which is where George's proposal comes in. Yasu (as Kanon) catches George telling Eva about marrying Shannon, gets jealous of Shannon having both George and Battler's love while Yasu isn't capable of bearing kids, and goes apeshit. People start dying, the murders at different hands (Yasu, Kyrie, Eva, etc). This is the primary "whydunnit". Shannon initially follows order until she or George is murdered, the servants do the same, and Kanon is a costume + a persona, that's the "howdunnit". Yasukatrice is the primary "whodunnit".
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Old 2011-02-18, 21:16   Link #930
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I basically like the idea of Shannon and Kanon being two different people and Kanon actually being Yasu. This also helps to explain some scenes that would be rather weird if they were all 1 person.

1) It explains why there are 2 Beatrice's roaming the island at times during the first 4 games. One is the dress-Beatrice, the other the uniform-Beatrice.
There are several scenes that hint towards something like that especially during Episode 4, where another Beatrice tells the one from the balcony who met Battler that she is going to take over from now. It would also explain the presence of Kinz˘ in Episode 4, even though Ushiromiya Kinz˘ is dead.

2) Beatrice telling Shannon that she will shoulder her loneliness and instead give her a little brother. Maybe Yasu actually vanished for a while and then reappeared as Kanon.

3) Several scenes where it is hinted at, that the death of either Shannon or Kanon leads to the other exiting from Beatrice's game and trying to sabotage the roulette. This happened both when Shannon died and Kanon swore to fight against the witch in the boiler room in Episode 1 and when Kanon seemed to have taken the witch's side (after dying) in the battle between Beatrice and Shannon in Epsiode 2.

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Originally Posted by GravityZero View Post
Shannon was Yasu's ideal. Hence Sayo = Yoshiya backwards when Yasu becomes Kanon, Shannon's counterpart.
The problem is that this doesn't work as well in the Japanese version.
Sayo is written 紗代 or in Hiragana さよ (even though it could be read しゃよ) and Yoshiya is written 嘉哉 or in Hiragana よしや. The Kanji are radically different and even turning around the reading would require some bending in pronounciation and linguistic logic.  

I had a theory that both of them Kanon and Shannon (whoever is who) solved the epitaph and both became heirs to the legacy of Beatrice and Kinz˘.
One has to become the witch and one becomes the family head...but the one who becomes the witch will be trapped on the island forever while the one inheriting the family has the right to go free.
So the duel could have actually been something between the two of them in the beginning. They had to decide who had the right to leave and be with the one s/he loved. But when Battler came everything was thrown into chaos and one of them betrayed the plan and tried to destroy everything...becoming an evil witch in the process.
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Old 2011-02-18, 21:44   Link #931
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I basically like the idea of Shannon and Kanon being two different people and Kanon actually being Yasu. This also helps to explain some scenes that would be rather weird if they were all 1 person.

1) It explains why there are 2 Beatrice's roaming the island at times during the first 4 games. One is the dress-Beatrice, the other the uniform-Beatrice.
There are several scenes that hint towards something like that especially during Episode 4, where another Beatrice tells the one from the balcony who met Battler that she is going to take over from now. It would also explain the presence of Kinz˘ in Episode 4, even though Ushiromiya Kinz˘ is dead.

2) Beatrice telling Shannon that she will shoulder her loneliness and instead give her a little brother. Maybe Yasu actually vanished for a while and then reappeared as Kanon.

3) Several scenes where it is hinted at, that the death of either Shannon or Kanon leads to the other exiting from Beatrice's game and trying to sabotage the roulette. This happened both when Shannon died and Kanon swore to fight against the witch in the boiler room in Episode 1 and when Kanon seemed to have taken the witch's side (after dying) in the battle between Beatrice and Shannon in Epsiode 2.
I don't personally support this idea that much, but I understand what you're talking about. Some things you should consider are. 1)That if Shannon and Yasu are different people it causes all kinds of timeline problems. Shannon would have to be older ( like in her 20's) if we beleive the story as told, and it's doubtful someone would be around longer than Yasu. (2 the two Beatrice's do have an explanation within the story of representing the Beatrice of Legend (Elder) and the Beatrice that loves Battler.

I don't find it to be that credible honestly. And I don't beleive Ryukishi is that clever.


Quote:
I had a theory that both of them Kanon and Shannon (whoever is who) solved the epitaph and both became heirs to the legacy of Beatrice and Kinz˘.
One has to become the witch and one becomes the family head...but the one who becomes the witch will be trapped on the island forever while the one inheriting the family has the right to go free.
So the duel could have actually been something between the two of them in the beginning. They had to decide who had the right to leave and be with the one s/he loved. But when Battler came everything was thrown into chaos and one of them betrayed the plan and tried to destroy everything...becoming an evil witch in the process.
Inheritance simply doesn't work like this though.

Solving the epitaph means you're recognized as the witch by Kinzo. So becoming the witch and the family head are basically the same thing. I don't know what you mean by "inheriting the family" though and I don't think such a thing actually happens or if it does I don't think it works this way.
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Old 2011-02-18, 22:30   Link #932
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ty haguruma

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I don't personally support this idea that much, but I understand what you're talking about. Some things you should consider are. 1)That if Shannon and Yasu are different people it causes all kinds of timeline problems. Shannon would have to be older ( like in her 20's) if we beleive the story as told, and it's doubtful someone would be around longer than Yasu. (2 the two Beatrice's do have an explanation within the story of representing the Beatrice of Legend (Elder) and the Beatrice that loves Battler.

I don't find it to be that credible honestly. And I don't beleive Ryukishi is that clever
mmm, is it ever stated that Yasu's the fukuin house servant who's been there the longest? cuz that's the only spot we'd hit a logic bomb.

i feel like "Shkanontrice" is an oversimplification , and a bit too cheap and convenient. it's practically a spoonfed answer, when we're supposed to be looking for a non-spooned one. the 'why dunnit' suffers, and the 'how dunnit' gets considerably tougher.

"Liokanontrice + Shannon" is much less forced. If you take the reds and love duel as red herringsand work around them, they create the motive, method, and primary culprits for the crime. just because Kanon must disappear when Shannon dies doesn't mean that Kanon = Shannon, it means that Kanon's purpose of existence is tied to Shannon and dissipates whenever she dies. at any time Lion wants, Shannon can dress as Beatrice. as long as George and the servants aren't involved, there would be no one the wiser. another big "howdunnit" loophole.

we all disregard Shannon's appearance in Clare's flashback as a hallucination - what if she's real? what if the reason Shannon couldn't get Kanon for Will is because Kanon = LION was going to be revealed? Non-thinkers who wont consider every possibility would be stuck on Shkanon/Shkanontrice thanks to episode 6, the concept that Shannon is anything but a figment of yasu's imagination would be outright ignored by most people. Play ep 7 assuming that Shannon is real and that Kanon was created by Yasu to be Shannon's little brother.

Quote:
2) Beatrice telling Shannon that she will shoulder her loneliness and instead give her a little brother. Maybe Yasu actually vanished for a while and then reappeared as Kanon.
quoted from Haguruma because it helps my argument. if ppl don't get stuck and stop thinking become "Shkanontrice is practically canon", the simpler explanation is made: "Kanon is Yasu". Shkanontrice is a cover-up possibility made by ryu to throw the non-thinkers off imo. Lion AND Shannon are the culprits. Kanon is a personality created by Lion for the purpose of being Shannon's little brother - Kanon loses his purpose (life) when Shannon and maybe Jessica die (notice what Will said regarding Kanon at the end of ep7 - "the illusion that loses it's purpose")

Beatrice III is another personality that Lion has, and shares her fantasies with Shannon. the two are best friends and confidants. the tragedy is that they love the same man. if Battler had returned earlier, Lion wouldn't have snapped because George wouldn't have proposed to Shannon (her best friend, ideal, older sister (Kanon), and love rival (Battler)). if George doesn't propose, Lion doesn't lose her only friend to George AND have to deal with jealously of Battler liking Shannon and Shannon's future happiness while Lion herself has a body "unfit to love". had he returned later, Shannon would have been gone with George and Battler attention wouldn't have been on her. puzzle solved.

Last edited by GravityZero; 2011-02-18 at 22:40.
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Old 2011-02-18, 22:34   Link #933
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Not to rain on anyone's theory-parade, but I have a few problems with two of the above posts.
Spoiler for Wall of text response:


Sorry about length. And negativity.

Last edited by Kealym; 2011-02-18 at 22:35. Reason: To clarify who I was referring to.
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Old 2011-02-18, 22:36   Link #934
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Originally Posted by GravityZero View Post
ty haguruma
mmm, is it ever stated that Yasu's the fukuin house servant who's been there the longest? cuz that's the only spot we'd hit a logic bomb.
Yes. More than once. That's one reason why I said it causes timeline problems.
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Old 2011-02-18, 23:29   Link #935
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Yes. More than once. That's one reason why I said it causes timeline problems.
I checked. Yasu's said to be the most experienced. It's never said that shannon came before her, is it?
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Old 2011-02-18, 23:57   Link #936
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I checked. Yasu's said to be the most experienced. It's never said that shannon came before her, is it?
I confused "longest" with "youngest". But anyway. Not directly no. It's implied though with her being there before Yasu was in her story and with her talking about Shannon being more experienced than her. If She's not imaginary like Shkanon posits Shannon's either there longer than Yasu, or you'd have to invent a completely different Shannon who hasn't been there longer than her. But early on in the games Shannon's stated to have been there for 10 years. Like with Yasu in Claire's story. So if they're not the same person. See where this leads...?
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Old 2011-02-19, 00:06   Link #937
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I confused "longest" with "youngest". But anyway. Not directly no. It's implied though with her being there before Yasu was in her story and with her talking about Shannon being more experienced than her. If She's not imaginary like Shkanon posits Shannon's either there longer than Yasu, or you'd have to invent a completely different Shannon who hasn't been there longer than her. But early on in the games Shannon's stated to have been there for 10 years. Like with Yasu in Claire's story. So if they're not the same person. See where this leads...?
Alternatively, when we first meet Yasuda and the stakes, she's already been there for some time, and Shannon was recruited shortly after, but being older/stronger/more learned could already do things well. She was assigned to Yasu's single room because they were friends.

Removing assumptions like "Yasuda had just arrived in the first scene we meet her" and "Shannon's experience comes from being there longer", it works fine. Blue Truth, and later basis for Lion + Shannon.
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Old 2011-02-19, 00:15   Link #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GravityZero View Post
Kanon loses his purpose (life) when Shannon and maybe Jessica die (notice what Will said regarding Kanon at the end of ep7 - "the illusion that loses it's purpose")
Sadly Will's battle against Clair is also the one thing that really breaks the theory of Shannon NOT being whoever Clair is (and we know that Clair is Yasu who is Lion).
The line I'm talking about is not one of the actual battle phrases but the comment by Will concerning Episode 1:
Quote:
Will: It had been a risky game from the very beginning, hadn't it? ... What would have been if he had insisted on seeing your face in death and had stepped inside? What would you have done?
Clair: I think you could say, I cast all of myself to fate.
Will: That what you call your roulette...
Unless this is major trickery, this only relates to Shannon's corpse in the shed and George's reaction to it. So we would need at least a "Kanon AND Shannon = Beatrice" theory to replace the "Kanon = Shannon = Beatrice" theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym
I disagree - Shannon and Kanon are presented as resisting Beatrice's game at all times, irregardless of the life/death status of the other, with the exception of Kanon in the boiler room in EP1. Of course, he followed up his speech by literally shooting Natsuhi in the face for no reason, so... ...
Not exactly...
Yes, there are several times where we see them actively resisting Beatrice's game:
1) Kanon in the boiler room because Shannon died (Episode 1)
2) Kanon while defending Jessica (Episode 2)
3) Shannon while defending George (Episode 2)
4) Kanon in Kinz˘'s study without any proper reason given (Episode 3)

The funny thing is that they are not really defying Beatrice during Episode 4, because she made no active appearance until the very end. Who they are resisting then is their master (お館様), who is represented by (but probably isn't) Kinz˘.

And the strange thing with Shannon's resistance in Episode 2 is, that she is not only fighting against Beatrice but also against Kanon, who has sided with the witch. Why is Kanon being shown actively acting as a vessel or at least a familiar of the witch while Shannon isn't?
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Old 2011-02-19, 00:25   Link #939
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If it's alright with you I think we should take this discussion to the episode 7 thread. I think it's more relevant there.
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Old 2011-02-19, 00:28   Link #940
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Sadly Will's battle against Clair is also the one thing that really breaks the theory of Shannon NOT being whoever Clair is (and we know that Clair is Yasu who is Lion).
The line I'm talking about is not one of the actual battle phrases but the comment by Will concerning Episode 1:
Quote:
Will: It had been a risky game from the very beginning, hadn't it? ... What would have been if he had insisted on seeing your face in death and had stepped inside? What would you have done?
Clair: I think you could say, I cast all of myself to fate.
Will: That what you call your roulette...
Unless this is major trickery, this only relates to Shannon's corpse in the shed and George's reaction to it. So we would need at least a "Kanon AND Shannon = Beatrice" theory to replace the "Kanon = Shannon = Beatrice" theory.
Two possible responses.
1. In the translation i'm looking at, he says "that dead face and just stepped inside". That =/= Your.
2. Even if it's "your face in death", that suggests trickery, like a switch. "Lion switched with Shannon as the fake corpse for that twilight would have given it away" is my interpretation. "Your face" means the corpse's face - Ushiromiya Lion's, not Shannon. This level of reasoning is possible for Furude GravityZero lmfao
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