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Old 2011-02-18, 00:46   Link #61
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
You shouldn't confuse higher standards of entertainment with not being able to enjoy things.
you right, some anime can be So Bad It's Good
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Old 2011-02-18, 00:46   Link #62
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There's nothing wrong with looking at things critically; having fun and using your brain aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, I tend to be very critical and break everything down in my reviews, but that doesn't mean I don't do of the silly "omg she's so cute/cool" stuff that people do too.

I am also a very casual fan; I haven't even watched that many anime and don't really care either.

The only problem is when something insults your intelligence and it stops you from enjoying it on either level. That's when it's bad.
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Old 2011-02-18, 06:12   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
As much as I loved Seitokai no Ichizon, it doesn't excuse how they arguably used almost every tricks to save budget, which would have attracted the wrath of a whole fandom if it was for a series of another genre.
Well, that's why it works. the thing is, an anime with low budget can works if used creatively, and SnI does it very well. It's one of those animes in which i'm actually fine with the lack of detail.

However, i do think that SnI would be WAY awesome if done by JC STaff.
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Old 2011-02-18, 06:42   Link #64
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Originally Posted by rrw View Post
the way you review anime, in fact most of you post. show the you seem a technical stoic person. i mean there is barely feeling of "emotion" in there. obviously i understand that you sometimes criticize the technical aspect of an anime. but it seem you take that bit serious. i can be wrong obviously. since we are on internet. you can simply hide your personality.
I think you are mistaking my "style" in my posts with my personality altogether (especially if you read between the lines and the expressions I take, rather than my bullet points). I'd rather not want repeat what people already said in the same thread. That being said, even now, I don't particularly keep this stance all the time, as you can see with my post regarding IS ep7 (should I was technical stoic, it would be trash and I would never bother with it). Heck, I think I went tad on the fanboy side when I was reviewing Higurashi and Clannad over the episodes.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
There's nothing wrong with looking at things critically; having fun and using your brain aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, I tend to be very critical and break everything down in my reviews, but that doesn't mean I don't do of the silly "omg she's so cute/cool" stuff that people do too.
That's exactly that. Furthermore, the opposite is so true as well: you can have a HGGGGGGNNN moment how many times you want, it won't really save a show if a deus ex machina just pop on your face, asking for forgiveness with a cheap ploy.

That being said, there are things that can be done right and leave an entertaining result, without being overly sophisticated.
In deen case, we have Fruits Basket for instance, quite lighthearted at the first glance, but combine pretty well comedy and philosophical stuff, albeit the last portion of the adaptation took a lof of liberties.
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The only problem is when something insults your intelligence and it stops you from enjoying it on either level. That's when it's bad.
Definitely one of the major issues. I don't think we can put more emphasis on the fact this entertainment is on par with other fiction format, regardless if we have kid/otaku pandering tendencies, cliche and whatnot. Thus, the execution and consistency of a story is as important as its content and essence.
And this is exactly what I'm criticizing Deen for, considering that they are just not trying at times, to outrageous level way too often.

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Originally Posted by Taufiq91 View Post
Well, that's why it works. the thing is, an anime with low budget can works if used creatively, and SnI does it very well. It's one of those animes in which i'm actually fine with the lack of detail.
I do understand that studios need tricks to save budget in order to see the light after the tunnel. However, in the case of SnI, it was used nearly all the time, to the point I was wondering if they had a budget to begin with.
Take Seto no Hanayome for instance: it doesn't have a stellar budget either, but Gonzo at least -tried- to put a coherent execution, and used the tricks appropriately (mainly: slapstick comedy having a largely lower FPS, but not noticeable at the first glance due to the motion impression and "fast and furious" context).

In comparison, we have SnI with a average design consistency but an abnormally cheap environnment setting. If we assume that the characters weren't that colorful and amusing, there would be just... nothing to relish on, and that content was thanks to the original material.
You might say that the context isn't the same, but we have something similar to this: Seitokai no Yakuindomo, very similar to SnI, aside for an obvious drastic different humor. And we manage to have a lot more transitions, scenes and environnement despite we are also dealing with yet another student council body.

That would have been fine in the 90's, but I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it, even for a comedy show.
And if I were to poke at Higurashi season 1 budget, well... (and it isn't fault to the period... we had better consistency than that from much older series, like X1999, Cowboy Bebop etc)

It is just like that: that studio, regardless of their director, has a very obnoxious tendency at cutting corners with the budget and composition, even when the project itself is ambitious and very likely to sell (only few exceptions such like Kenshin OVA).
This comparison might look unfair but... I don't understand why they just can't dish out the budget for a movie like UBW, while ufotable could do that for Kara no Kyoukai. To begin with F/SN is arguably much more popular than KnK due to the original material vintage, and yet not only Deen doesn't try, but falls flat, whereas ufotable manages to make an impressive performance SEVEN times with SEVEN directors.
Deen knew they could sell with that movie considering the fanbase of F/Sn (and they surely did quite a bit considering the blu ray sales), but they really didn't try and simply expected the fans to take the bait.

Quote:
However, i do think that SnI would be WAY awesome if done by JC STaff.
I wouldn't bet on it to be frank, considering JC staff isn't really good at adaptation either, but that's for another thread I guess.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-02-18 at 07:07.
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:17   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post

I do understand that studios need tricks to save budget in order to see the light after the tunnel. However, in the case of SnI, it was used nearly all the time, to the point I was wondering if they had a budget to begin with.
Take Seto no Hanayome for instance: it doesn't have a stellar budget either, but Gonzo at least -tried- to put a coherent execution, and used the tricks appropriately (mainly: slapstick comedy having a largely lower FPS, but not noticeable at the first glance due to the motion impression and "fast and furious" context).

In comparison, we have SnI with a average design consistency but an abnormally cheap environnment setting. If we assume that the characters weren't that colorful and amusing, there would be just... nothing to relish on, and that content was thanks to the original material.
You might say that the context isn't the same, but we have something similar to this: Seitokai no Yakuindomo, very similar to SnI, aside for an obvious drastic different humor. And we manage to have a lot more transitions, scenes and environnement despite we are also dealing with yet another student council body.

That would have been fine in the 90's, but I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it, even for a comedy show.
And if I were to poke at Higurashi season 1 budget, well... (and it isn't fault to the period... we had better consistency than that from much older series, like X1999, Cowboy Bebop etc)

It is just like that: that studio, regardless of their director, has a very obnoxious tendency at cutting corners with the budget and composition, even when the project itself is ambitious and very likely to sell (only few exceptions such like Kenshin OVA).
This comparison might look unfair but... I don't understand why they just can't dish out the budget for a movie like UBW, while ufotable could do that for Kara no Kyoukai. To begin with F/SN is arguably much more popular than KnK due to the original material vintage, and yet not only Deen doesn't try, but falls flat, whereas ufotable manages to make an impressive performance SEVEN times with SEVEN directors.
Deen knew they could sell with that movie considering the fanbase of F/Sn (and they surely did quite a bit considering the blu ray sales), but they really didn't try and simply expected the fans to take the bait.

I wouldn't bet on it to be frank, considering JC staff isn't really good at adaptation either, but that's for another thread I guess.
Seriously, do you have to write so much?
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:21   Link #66
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Would it be better to make 1 liners with a mere "derp, Deen just sucks, /thread" then? I could very well just type "they are not doing it with creativity" leaving you to wonder why I think so. Does it make it better? *shrugs*
Exposing points is part of a discussion I believe, and suffice to say, I don't think it is "so much" compared to what you can have with other people for a subject similar to this one.
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:26   Link #67
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Would it be better to make 1 liners with a mere "derp, Deen just sucks, /thread"?
Exposing points is part of a discussion I believe, and suffice to say, I don't think it is "so much" compared to what you can have with other people for a subject similar to this one.
But to respond to an opinion with fuckloads of unnecessary information doesn't work, because TBH, it's my opinion.

If i say "i think this pizza is kinda nice", would you respond to me with unnecessary facts about the ingredients of a pizza, because you don't like it? of course not.
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:32   Link #68
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So you are calling an opinion "fuckloads of unecessary information"? I exposed only points to illustrate my opinion. Should I consider your opinion as unecessary information then? I don't think so, and size/content doesn't really affect that.
It seems you are mistaking my answer: I didn't try to "force" you to agree with me nor changing your opinion. I raised mine against yours... isn't what a discussion supposed to be? Not based on facts alone, you can have similar and different opinions confronting each other.

You think it is creative, I think it isn't and explained why, that's all. It is up to you to agree/disagree or heck, even read it, but that doesn't make it suddenly "unecessary" or whatnot. (especially it is ontopic regarding the subject at hand, studio deen. That said, the current issue at hand is going offtopic).
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:37   Link #69
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So you are calling an opinion "fuckloads of unecessary information"? It seems you are mistaking my answer: I didn't try to "force" you to agree with me nor changing your opinion. I raised mine against yours... isn't what a discussion supposed to be? Not based on facts alone, you can have similar and different opinions confronting each other.
But your response was too TLDR for me and i don't give a fuck about comparing it to ANY ANIME WHATSOEVER.

Yeah, Seitokai Yakuindomo might have more fluid animation compared to SnI, but so what? i don't care! I love Seitokai yakuindomo, but i never wanted to compare it to SnI in the first place!
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:52   Link #70
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Would it be better to make 1 liners with a mere "derp, Deen just sucks, /thread" then?
Well, actually that thought is what caused me to start this thread. But rather err on the side of caution and have too much substance rather than too little...
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:00   Link #71
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Well, actually that thought is what caused me to start this thread. But rather err on the side of caution and have too much substance rather than too little...
well, probably main reason people think Deen is suck simply hatred form VN fan (which seem always complaining due to it's hard to turn it into anime)

but if think them as stand alone studio. without bothering about where the adaptation come form. they pretty much average at best studio
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:12   Link #72
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well, probably main reason people think Deen is suck simply hatred form VN fan (which seem always complaining due to it's hard to turn it into anime)

but if think them as stand alone studio. without bothering about where the adaptation come form. they pretty much average at best studio
Well, although I do consider the opinions of the VN fans, I would still say there are problems even when i view them as standalone (that's the only way I have viewed them.)

Now, I mean certainly there are not the worst around and not everything they make is crap, but it does seem like they do get ahold of some pretty big projects.
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Old 2011-02-18, 13:00   Link #73
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It's funny how Deen gets so much flake for making bad adaptations or has production value issues in general when Maria Watches Over Us is one of the more well-received anime in recent years. Then again, the light novels for it are probably under the radar a lot for an already niche part of animedom as a whole. It's more interesting that the few times I've encountered individuals who have read the light novels don't have any problems with the anime, as a stand-alone or otherwise.

The moral of the story is: Deen cares more about dat yuri.

...

The only other shows (that I recall) I've seen from them are Umineko and Hell Girl. Someone did mention the beauty of the latter, but Aniplex also had a part in its production. And considering some of their other works, it comes as no surprise.
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Old 2011-02-18, 13:06   Link #74
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well, probably main reason people think Deen is suck simply hatred form VN fan (which seem always complaining due to it's hard to turn it into anime)

but if think them as stand alone studio. without bothering about where the adaptation come form. they pretty much average at best studio
Not really. For my example, my main complaint about their adapation of the UBW movie was that it was meant for no one.

The movie failed to put a coherent script together, and failed to deliver the essence of the VN for the fans. It failed on every corner possible.

It wasn't even good eye candy as far as movies go IMO.
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Old 2011-02-18, 13:07   Link #75
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The moral of the story is: Deen cares more about dat yuri.
wait minute i thought deen is more famous for their yaoi thing
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Old 2011-02-18, 20:02   Link #76
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This comparison might look unfair but... I don't understand why they just can't dish out the budget for a movie like UBW, while ufotable could do that for Kara no Kyoukai. To begin with F/SN is arguably much more popular than KnK due to the original material vintage, and yet not only Deen doesn't try, but falls flat, whereas ufotable manages to make an impressive performance SEVEN times with SEVEN directors.
Deen knew they could sell with that movie considering the fanbase of F/Sn (and they surely did quite a bit considering the blu ray sales), but they really didn't try and simply expected the fans to take the bait.
Deen has nothing to gain from splurging on most productions, hence the continual cost cutting. It's common knowledge that the money a studio receives from the production committee is inadequate to cover costs.

If a studio doesn't invest in a project's production, the result is like this:
Anime is a massive flop = $0 profit, no loss if production is on budget, net less if there are budget overruns
Anime is a massive hit = $0 profit, no loss if production is on budget (rare since it takes extra money to make something nice), net loss if there are budget overruns

They animate Fate/Stay Night as a work for hire contractor with no share of the pie (that was the deal they made for the TV series, and it carried over to the movie). If they were to go overbudget to make something extra impressive, they'd take a net loss even if a million DVDs were sold. In fact, it'd be even better if they produced something under the allotted budget since they'd pocket the remainder, so long as they produce enough hits to lock down future contracts.

The studios that would allow overruns are those who're afraid that lacklustre quality might affect future business (that would probably be most companies) or are betting that improved production values might open up more opportunities. However, Deen has no shortage of work, so......

Naturally, it's a different matter if a studio invests in the production, just as ufotable did (Madhouse and Gonzo did this a lot, and they got into big trouble because of it). The result would be like this:

Anime is a massive flop = significant net loss, especially if they pay a lot out of their own pockets to make the anime really good
Anime is a massive hit = significant net profit, even if they risk a lot of money in the short term

In short, Deen is sticking with a bad business model. However, they're evidently able to cut corners to reduce/prevent overruns and still secure a lot of work.
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Old 2011-02-19, 00:04   Link #77
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Deen has nothing to gain from splurging on most productions, hence the continual cost cutting. It's common knowledge that the money a studio receives from the production committee is inadequate to cover costs.

If a studio doesn't invest in a project's production, the result is like this:
Anime is a massive flop = $0 profit, no loss if production is on budget, net less if there are budget overruns
Anime is a massive hit = $0 profit, no loss if production is on budget (rare since it takes extra money to make something nice), net loss if there are budget overruns

They animate Fate/Stay Night as a work for hire contractor with no share of the pie (that was the deal they made for the TV series, and it carried over to the movie). If they were to go overbudget to make something extra impressive, they'd take a net loss even if a million DVDs were sold. In fact, it'd be even better if they produced something under the allotted budget since they'd pocket the remainder, so long as they produce enough hits to lock down future contracts.

The studios that would allow overruns are those who're afraid that lacklustre quality might affect future business (that would probably be most companies) or are betting that improved production values might open up more opportunities. However, Deen has no shortage of work, so......

Naturally, it's a different matter if a studio invests in the production, just as ufotable did (Madhouse and Gonzo did this a lot, and they got into big trouble because of it). The result would be like this:

Anime is a massive flop = significant net loss, especially if they pay a lot out of their own pockets to make the anime really good
Anime is a massive hit = significant net profit, even if they risk a lot of money in the short term

In short, Deen is sticking with a bad business model. However, they're evidently able to cut corners to reduce/prevent overruns and still secure a lot of work.
so if deen know that they cannot make money form F/SN. why they still make it? plus where do you get this information?
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Old 2011-02-19, 01:25   Link #78
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so if deen know that they cannot make money form F/SN. why they still make it? plus where do you get this information?
Depending on the project, you can find the production committee info in the ending credits (for Unlimited Blade Works, the members are Geneon Universal, TBS, Frontier Works, Notes, Krei, and Clockworks). Those are the investors who stand to make money on a show/movie.

As for why Deen makes anime with no royalties, that's the traditional financing model. Most studios have little money on hand (banks don't lend), so they've usually relied on fixed production fees. The financiers (often a broadcaster before) provide a fixed sum, and they deliver the product on the agreed schedule.

However, with TV anime on the decline, the money provided by broadcasters/sponsors has drastically decreased, so studios are forced to make up the difference out of their pockets if they want to stay in business. Productions houses with extra money (and who are willing to risk it) have started investing in the shows themselves, so they take a significant loss on production on the chance that the anime might succeed and earn them a cut.

Deen is simply maintaining the traditional model (lower risk, low rewards), which also forces them into a quantity over quality strategy. They have a large staff, and to keep the cash flowing, they depend on a large number of contracts for those minuscule production fees.

Nevertheless, they do invest in the odd project they actually care about, such as Simoun. I think the president is also creating an anime in his late wife's memory. The rest is just contract work so everyone can pay the bills.
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Old 2011-03-02, 00:52   Link #79
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Interesting there is a thread for bashing studio

They focus on fan-service (harem and/or bishounen)

Well, as adaptions go this studio has committed several atrocities...
  • Kore wa Zombie Desuka?
  • Dragon Crisis!
  • Unlimited Blade Works
  • Seitokai no Ichizon
  • Umineko no Naku Koro ni
  • Shion no Ou
  • Touka Gettan
  • Shounen Onmyouji
  • Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
  • Fate/Stay Night
  • Yami to Boushi to Hon no Tabibito
  • Samurai Deeper Kyou
  • Fruits Basket

Or let's put it this way, series composition is an unkown term to their stuff. Animation is so and so for TV, better in OVA (ROD, for example) and movies (UBW), when they actually animate anything, since the shows the pick usually need very few keys and even these are just talking heads. Still for me the writters they employ should be publicly executed as a service to mankind
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Old 2011-03-02, 04:48   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Interesting there is a thread for bashing studio

They focus on fan-service (harem and/or bishounen)

Well, as adaptions go this studio has committed several atrocities...
  • Kore wa Zombie Desuka?
  • Dragon Crisis!
  • Unlimited Blade Works
  • Seitokai no Ichizon
  • Umineko no Naku Koro ni
  • Shion no Ou
  • Touka Gettan
  • Shounen Onmyouji
  • Higurashi no Naku Koro ni
  • Fate/Stay Night
  • Yami to Boushi to Hon no Tabibito
  • Samurai Deeper Kyou
  • Fruits Basket

Or let's put it this way, series composition is an unkown term to their stuff. Animation is so and so for TV, better in OVA (ROD, for example) and movies (UBW), when they actually animate anything, since the shows the pick usually need very few keys and even these are just talking heads. Still for me the writters they employ should be publicly executed as a service to mankind
You just committed an otaku rage for listing these shows :P
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