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Old 2011-02-14, 17:34   Link #121
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't think that's the point. Whether things change or not, you gotta try, otherwise you already lost from the start. And really, in the end, unless you try, you can't never tell for sure. An attitude like that of Sayaka would always end up in regrets.
As I've said before, that's the idealistic approach. And to a degree, negotiation already took place, when they met initially. Kyoko didn't seem willing to budge. So, Neville Chamberlain, what will you give up to appease your opponent? Poland? Do you think we can have peace in our time?

So, I ask again: What kind of compromise do you think could be struck? If there is no compromise that can be struck, then clearly Sayaka is right to do what she can to protect the people of the town. How many humans will you give up in order to negotiate? Remember, that familiar is out there now, feeding on humans, and Kyoko plans to stop you everytime you try to stop it.

So how many lives is your negotiation worth?
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Old 2011-02-17, 16:49   Link #122
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Let's see. Some facts. Though not all are.
1) She feels she was fucked with because Kyubei didn't tell them the info bit about the SG (because they never asked... duh)
- Kyubei emphasizes on the body's utter advantage when seperated from the soul, the painful way
2) She turns emo, deep in thought so she doesn't go to school
3) Then she meets up with Kyouko, this has more importance on behalf of Kyouko
4) Sayaka's ideals are strengthened as Kyouko is the example she doesn't want to follow even if they both started with the same mistake as Kyouko stated
5) ^might have pushed her to be able to go to school again, or she recovered without influence, doesn't matter
6) Confrontation with Hitomi... dun dunn dunnn we all know what happened
- Sayaka feels regret for the first time, contradicting herself
- What's left is sadness and irritation ---> Lowest self-esteem ever, gave up on Kamijou (probably)
7) Ahh the light! It's so... pink!! Oh wait, it's just Madoka. Yosh yosh, it's all right. Let's go some witch hunting
8) Sayaka made up her mind (lol yeah sure) and there's only one thing she can now be optimistic about: the advantage

Which leads back to Kyubei. Good job Kyubei, you helped her realize that she isn't worthless as a zombie! Come on, she is even so happy she laughs out her ass when she literally feels that her body can take more than... well, a non-MG body. (half joking)

Spoiler for speculation for Sayaka:
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Old 2011-02-18, 02:46   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
As I've said before, that's the idealistic approach. And to a degree, negotiation already took place, when they met initially. Kyoko didn't seem willing to budge. So, Neville Chamberlain, what will you give up to appease your opponent? Poland? Do you think we can have peace in our time?

So, I ask again: What kind of compromise do you think could be struck? If there is no compromise that can be struck, then clearly Sayaka is right to do what she can to protect the people of the town. How many humans will you give up in order to negotiate? Remember, that familiar is out there now, feeding on humans, and Kyoko plans to stop you everytime you try to stop it.

So how many lives is your negotiation worth?
Emotionally, Sayaka's choice is fine. Rationally, hers is not.

Forget about silly question such as how many lives can be cost by negotiation because negotiation always costs one less life than no negotiation, namely Sayaka's life. Let's face the truth. Doesn't matter how hard she tries, she just doesn't stand a chance again Kyoko. Her choice is most likely leading to her death and Kyoko continues with witch farming.
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Old 2011-02-18, 10:50   Link #124
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I like a past analysis that suggested Sayaka is needed to carry the MG-fighting action. That would keep her "safe" from termination until the episode before Madoka becomes one, at least. But the clock's ticking down until she's "expendable."
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Old 2011-02-18, 12:36   Link #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herbert View Post
Emotionally, Sayaka's choice is fine. Rationally, hers is not.

Forget about silly question such as how many lives can be cost by negotiation because negotiation always costs one less life than no negotiation, namely Sayaka's life. Let's face the truth. Doesn't matter how hard she tries, she just doesn't stand a chance again Kyoko. Her choice is most likely leading to her death and Kyoko continues with witch farming.
The cost in lives refers to the humans who are dying to witches and familiars, while you're negotiating with Kyoko. Hell, every moment you let that one get away, is another moment it could feed on someone.

And I'd say Sayaka's choice is fine emotionally and rationally; someone needed to be an MG, and if she hadn't, Madoka would be dead now, or worse. The only issue is one that she shares with Madoka, in that neither one of them thought to ask about the details. If you don't read the fine print going in, some would say you deserve what you get.

Even now, I'm wondering if they ever will.

Then again, the plot relies on them not asking so Gen can keep things in shadows.
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Old 2011-02-18, 14:41   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The cost in lives refers to the humans who are dying to witches and familiars, while you're negotiating with Kyoko. Hell, every moment you let that one get away, is another moment it could feed on someone.

And I'd say Sayaka's choice is fine emotionally and rationally; someone needed to be an MG, and if she hadn't, Madoka would be dead now, or worse. The only issue is one that she shares with Madoka, in that neither one of them thought to ask about the details. If you don't read the fine print going in, some would say you deserve what you get.

Even now, I'm wondering if they ever will.

Then again, the plot relies on them not asking so Gen can keep things in shadows.
If Sakaya doesn't negotiate with Kyoko, every time she wants to kill a familiar Kyoko intervene. If Sayaka fights Kyoko, she gets killed. In other words, I can see Sayaka can save anyone from familiar if she chooses to oppose Kyoko.

I never said her decision of becoming MG was irrational (but I do think so but it's irrelevant). All I said was Sayaka made wrong decision when dealing with Kyoko. Disagreeing on all things with someone who is out of her league and has intent to kill her is hardly a wise decision.
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Old 2011-02-18, 15:21   Link #127
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Originally Posted by herbert View Post
If Sakaya doesn't negotiate with Kyoko, every time she wants to kill a familiar Kyoko intervene. If Sayaka fights Kyoko, she gets killed. In other words, I can see Sayaka can save anyone from familiar if she chooses to oppose Kyoko.

I never said her decision of becoming MG was irrational (but I do think so but it's irrelevant). All I said was Sayaka made wrong decision when dealing with Kyoko. Disagreeing on all things with someone who is out of her league and has intent to kill her is hardly a wise decision.
A fair point. But it all depends on your gut instinct as to whether Kyoko can be negotiated with. At that time, Kyoko wanted the territory, and wanted to let familiars feed on humans until they became witches. Sayaka wants to protect the people of the town. So where is the space for negotiation there?

If Kyoko is allowed to let any familiars run free, then people die.
If Sayaka gets to stop all familiars, then there are less witches for Kyoko (and maybe not enough to support two MGs).

Someone just let a serial killer escape, stating their clear intent to let that serial killer (and others like him) end more lives. Do you negotiate and thus give the serial killers time to kill? Or do you announce that you have no intention of letting people die, and if they hold to their position, you will be forced to act in order to protect people?

You can substitute serial killer for rabid tiger or something if you wish.

I have nothing against negotiation, and indeed, I'd love to see people talk things out. But I wouldn't feel so good about myself if talking things out meant more people died in the meantime. I wouldn't want to sacrifice people for my own principles.
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Old 2011-02-18, 15:26   Link #128
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This girl. She likes having preconceived notions doesn't she? In a way, she judges people before having a chance to know them. I think that's her biggest flaw.

I mean like, before knowing anything about Homura in the first episode, she thinks of her as an enemy. This is happening with almost every character she meets. Take Kamijo too. She has no idea what he thinks about her but she already decided that he would fully reject her.

If she keeps going the route she's going, things aren't going to turn out well. Her biggest competition isn't anyone in the outside but herself.
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Old 2011-02-19, 13:08   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fandal View Post
This girl. She likes having preconceived notions doesn't she? In a way, she judges people before having a chance to know them. I think that's her biggest flaw.

I mean like, before knowing anything about Homura in the first episode, she thinks of her as an enemy. This is happening with almost every character she meets. Take Kamijo too. She has no idea what he thinks about her but she already decided that he would fully reject her.

If she keeps going the route she's going, things aren't going to turn out well. Her biggest competition isn't anyone in the outside but herself.
Sayaka as of episode 7 is clearly having a mental breakdown with wasting her own life for someone, only to be taken away by one of her best friends is strangling her. As we saw in episode 7 when she was fighting the witch then clearly just took all the pain that was being delivered to her, she is indeed following on what Kyoko went through with having a miracle happen, only to have an equal despair towards the person happen as well. But indeed, the problem she is having is not the people outside of her own world, but herself since she can't truly tell Kamijo after knowing him far longer then her competition.

What will happen next will all depend on Kamijo for Sayaka's sake. If Kamijo rejects the confession he is about to get from Sayaka's competitor, then that "might" bring some light to Sayaka. But if he accepts the confession... Then Sayaka just might end up like Mami.
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Old 2011-02-19, 18:23   Link #130
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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Sayaka as of episode 7 is clearly having a mental breakdown with wasting her own life for someone, only to be taken away by one of her best friends is strangling her. As we saw in episode 7 when she was fighting the witch then clearly just took all the pain that was being delivered to her, she is indeed following on what Kyoko went through with having a miracle happen, only to have an equal despair towards the person happen as well. But indeed, the problem she is having is not the people outside of her own world, but herself since she can't truly tell Kamijo after knowing him far longer then her competition.

What will happen next will all depend on Kamijo for Sayaka's sake. If Kamijo rejects the confession he is about to get from Sayaka's competitor, then that "might" bring some light to Sayaka. But if he accepts the confession... Then Sayaka just might end up like Mami.
That might be true, but honestly, what do you think will happen? Given this series' track record, most likely it's going to go from bad to worse. I say Sayaka's going to completely break down and turn witch.

Just another step towards the full reset ending this series is heading towards.
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Old 2011-02-19, 18:35   Link #131
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One reason why people call this roller coaster is because it doesn't only go into one direction. Which means it won't simply go from bad to worse. At least it's not likely in this case. I believe Sayaka will be able to recover from her mental breakdown, maybe even find a reason to move on with her usual lighthearted attitude. Then from there, she will be crushed again and then things will get worse. I could be totally wrong as well but I really doubt that Sayaka will now purely keep falling down into her own darkness the very next sequences.
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Old 2011-02-20, 08:45   Link #132
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Is Sayaka a parody of Ruiko Saten from To Aru Railgun?
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Old 2011-02-20, 09:21   Link #133
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I think you're a bit hung up with the Index-verse. How is she supposed to be a parody of Ruiko?
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Old 2011-02-20, 10:03   Link #134
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I think you're a bit hung up with the Index-verse. How is she supposed to be a parody of Ruiko?
The her personality could count but mostly because of the bat
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Old 2011-02-24, 16:26   Link #135
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I stand corrected, Sayaka just went lower and lower. I sympathize with her, but I found her to be... quite stupid as well. She was just too flawed. Right, like with Lloyd Irving's enthusiasm. Very determined at first, but that same determination gets crushed quickly when not fueled enough. What is left is the negativity which only spreads further. Her intention to never use magic for herself was only part of the greater suffering. Sayaka assumes one thing, and then sticks to that, not being able to see an alternative. The same thing can be said about her self-questioning she couldn't find an answer to. So sadly, I think her misery was mainly her own fault.
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Old 2011-02-25, 05:17   Link #136
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To understand Sayaka, i would think 2 things are needed
i) Lying to yourself is always the easiest
ii ) To accept truth requires courage
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Old 2011-02-25, 05:53   Link #137
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Sayaka assumes one thing, and then sticks to that, not being able to see an alternative. The same thing can be said about her self-questioning she couldn't find an answer to. So sadly, I think her misery was mainly her own fault.
That was particularly flagrant in her discussion with Homura. She completely refused to admit Homura might want to help her because she still clings to her belief of Heros and Good MG and Great Mami and possibly even Good QB.

Homura even went as far as to let show a bit more of what she herself considered important, and stroke Sayaka's ego by saying things like "you are sharp" but kyoko ruined it.
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Old 2011-02-25, 10:13   Link #138
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That was particularly flagrant in her discussion with Homura. She completely refused to admit Homura might want to help her because she still clings to her belief of Heros and Good MG and Great Mami and possibly even Good QB.

Homura even went as far as to let show a bit more of what she herself considered important, and stroke Sayaka's ego by saying things like "you are sharp" but kyoko ruined it.
Were we watching the same episode? Homura admitted herself that she didn't want to help Sayaka. She was refused thanks in part to her lying about her intentions. This wasn't about stroking anyone's ego. Homura's sole obession with Madoka has been clear from the very start.

The only thing Kyoko got in the way of was Homura trying to kill another character in the series.

Certainly Sayaka's problem was being inflexible in changing her views. By the end she certainly didn't see Kyoko as an enemy, but it was a slow thing that required a lot of effort from Kyoko to break through. No shock that she couldn't trust Homura thanks to enough evidence to doubt her. The first time she really gets to interact with Homura is when she's seemingly ready to attack Madoka and QB. Then have fairly open disagreements with Mami who was a friend. Then have Homura popping out of nowhere to defeat the witch after Mami was killed. Neither Madoka or Homura ever found a need to explain that she was restrained by Mami and thus couldn't have acted any sooner.

No doubt that Sayaka made a lot of mistakes. But the first impressions given by Kyoko and Homura were pretty negative and helped make them tough to trust. Sayaka helped put herself into this bad situation, but it's not like other characters didn't help contribute to it.
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Old 2011-02-25, 10:29   Link #139
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Homura admitted herself that she didn't want to help Sayaka. She was refused thanks in part to her lying about her intentions. This wasn't about stroking anyone's ego. Homura's sole obession with Madoka has been clear from the very start.

The only thing Kyoko got in the way of was Homura trying to kill another character in the series.
You aren't wrong but you skipped an important part. The fact that Homura threw a Grief Seed to Sayaka. I don't know what else it could be if it isn't considered some kind of help. Homura was aware that Sayaka kept using her magic without cleaning her SG with GS. Another thing you skipped is the fact that Sayaka did not only refuse the help, she simply threw the GS away and then started bashing Homura. Only after the needless provocation did Homura snap.

Quote:
No doubt that Sayaka made a lot of mistakes. But the first impressions given by Kyoko and Homura were pretty negative and helped make them tough to trust. Sayaka helped put herself into this bad situation, but it's not like other characters didn't help contribute to it.
Kyouko wanted to kill her before. But this impression lost its significance when she dropped her cover. Homura wanted to kill her as well (after she got provoked) but aside from that, all the other possible contributions weren't intentional. In the end, Kyouko meant no harm, the opposite. Homura had also helped her before, but circumstances made it look like she had not. What I'm trying to say is, while Sayaka's perceivings are understandable, it's still her own fault for not considering alternatives. She sees something bad, she assumes it is bad and sticks to it, and she won't change her mind. That she is a zombie, that Homura is a liar and not a good person, that she can't stand a chance against Hitomi, that Kyouko's way of doing things was wrong etc.

If she had been able to consider more positive alternatives that in fact were not known to be bad choices ("You don't know until you try"), then she wouldn't have turned miserable as fast. Why not try live with the SG fact? Why not at least try talk to Kyouko as Madoka suggested? If she thinks they will end up fighting either way, at least try. Why just shove Homura off and not ask her a single question, assuming she knows everything even though they never talked to each other? A "what do you want this time?" would have been enough in my book.

Last edited by Vanish; 2011-02-25 at 10:51.
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Old 2011-02-25, 11:08   Link #140
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Hmmm...could it be that Madoka might use her wish to turn Sayaka back from a witch into human? I wonder if that is possible...The sad thing is, while I wish for Sayaka to be saved (in vain, I suppose), I don't want to see Madoka get pulled into this never-ending vortex of horror. She's just so innocent and sweet! My heary is breaking to just thinking about it (says the guy who previously claimed the only good ending this anime could have is a tragic ending).

*curls into a foetal position and cries*
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