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Old 2011-02-11, 09:59   Link #1
False Dawn
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One editor or two?

Now before all of you go :loleffort: at me, I feel this point should be raised. When did the majority of groups go from having two editors to solely having one on each release. I remember a time when even groups like gg had two editors but this seems to have fallen out of favour pretty drastically. I suppose you could say that the second editor position has been shed to gain time on an overall release without really losing too much in terms of quality (though obviously this assumes that your editor is good enough to work by himself/herself).

But is one editor really better than two? I've worked as part of an editing pairing on numerous occasions and sometimes it works really well and other times, it doesn't. I'd certainly suggest that edits have been enhanced when working as a twosome because the collaborative aspect allows you to bounce ideas around before settling on that tricky line, instead of just making do, as you sometimes have to when you're editing alone.

Would you or your group ever consider going to two editors again? Does your group still use the two editor system (I think AONE still might...)? Or are you a one-editor group all the way?
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Old 2011-02-11, 17:23   Link #2
Daiz
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For stuff I'm working with Commie, we do actually have two editors going through the scripts. But on top of that, we also have discussion about certain edit choices between multiple staff members, so tricky situations can be solved together. I'd say that with this kind of staff collaboration, having just one main editor is enough as long as he's not afraid to ask other people in the group about things.
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Old 2011-02-11, 19:05   Link #3
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I've never worked in a group that had a two-editor system, at least not while I was there. There were certain projects at Shinsen where the original editor maybe disliked the show and it had stagnated for a while (Koutetsushin Jeeg comes to mind) and I went over the show again as a second "editor," but it was really just a QC pass where I applied my changes myself. I've been lucky enough to work with (in general) extremely good QCers who were always willing to give their opinions on difficult lines and open to discussion about such lines or passages.
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Old 2011-02-12, 01:37   Link #4
Heibi
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We've always had 2 or more editors. I have my first editor who goes through fixes the obvious TL grammar and such. Then me, I edit the lines checking on wording and content. Then as a group we watch and catch errors made in the editing process, basically a final edit pass. I see no problems with more than one editor. But, we're old school...
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Old 2011-02-12, 04:01   Link #5
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
I have my first editor who goes through fixes the obvious TL grammar and such. Then me, I edit the lines checking on wording and content. Then as a group we watch and catch errors made in the editing process, basically a final edit pass.
At Shinsen the process was pretty much the same, but with only a single editor. The editor edits the script for grammar, wording, and content to the best of their ability. The qc'ers do a second-pass edit with a low-quality or RC1 encode for grammer, wording, content, and other errors. The editor selectively applies any qc changes they liked, consulting the translator as needed. The qc'ers do a final pass on an RC2 encode and catch any errors that made it through the first check (usually nothing).

As for which way is better *shrug*. Having a single editor per project keeps editing style consistent, allows the fansub group to work on more series simultaneously, and leads to less conflict since the project editor gets the final say on any editing changes. It also keeps everybody's role more focused. Going two editors with both a first-pass editor and a second-pass editor, means you just need twice as many editors, and have a higher chance of power-struggles between editors over changes (I assume?). The result would be the same as long as you recruit qc'ers capable of detecting and fixing editing mistakes while improving wording and dialog flow. If your group recruits dedicated qc'ers like this, more than a single editor would be overkill. If not, then two editors would be preferred for script quality, or a single editor for pure speed. At least that is how I see it.
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Old 2011-02-12, 08:28   Link #6
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Two editors makes no sense and I've frequently seen it lead to literal edit wars and drama (the sort of person who wants to be a fansub editor is often completely unable to admit that they are wrong or that someone else has a better idea). If your first editor isn't good enough to make the script make sense by himself, why did you recruit him in the first place? Sure, he might want to ask the opinion of someone else in some tricky spots, and/or you might want to have a second set of eyes checking for typos and copy editing errors, but two full-time editors work on the same show is dumb and a waste of resources.

This post brought to you by the gg Philosophy of Personal Responsibility Fansubbing.

(edit: also, proto-gg was a completely different environment compared to today's gg. unlike the Enterprise Fansubbing giants, gg has always strived to reinvent itself.)
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Old 2011-02-12, 09:16   Link #7
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
(the sort of person who wants to be a fansub editor is often completely unable to admit that they are wrong or that someone else has a better idea).
How very true. Editors are pretty stubborn


Quote:
If your first editor isn't good enough to make the script make sense by himself, why did you recruit him in the first place?
But what I've found is that two editors isn't really a case of the first editor not being good enough to do the script by him/herself (at least, I think that's the general consensus) but the second editor adds something extra to the script that's not just about grammar and typos. It's more about enhancing the script into something more readable and often, with more pizzazz to the dialogue. At least, that's what I've found.

I suppose most groups don't really worry too much about that though?
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Old 2011-02-12, 10:51   Link #8
Heibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Two editors makes no sense and I've frequently seen it lead to literal edit wars and drama (the sort of person who wants to be a fansub editor is often completely unable to admit that they are wrong or that someone else has a better idea). If your first editor isn't good enough to make the script make sense by himself, why did you recruit him in the first place? Sure, he might want to ask the opinion of someone else in some tricky spots, and/or you might want to have a second set of eyes checking for typos and copy editing errors, but two full-time editors work on the same show is dumb and a waste of resources.

This post brought to you by the gg Philosophy of Personal Responsibility Fansubbing.

(edit: also, proto-gg was a completely different environment compared to today's gg. unlike the Enterprise Fansubbing giants, gg has always strived to reinvent itself.)
I can see where that might happen. The first editor in our case takes care of the basics and gets it in a format for me to work with. A timeable format with all the common errors removed - then gives it to me(that will be the first time I look at it). Then I time, type-set, edit line length, breaks and reword where necessary, fix my timing errors, and the rest of all that stuff. And if I have any questions on different ways to word something I'll ask my other Central Anime folks. We've always done it this way and it is very efficient. And I get the final say anyway.
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Old 2011-02-12, 17:00   Link #9
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Two editors may work out well, if they have the capacity to collaborate = being decent folks, in some way sharing the same approach. Otherwise I've found that a good QC crew can do about the same thing. As long as there is no prestige involved, you just juggle suggestions and end up with something decent. My experience from L-E is pretty good in that respect.

As for the gg approach, well if it works out for you, fine. My experience from the real world, doing software development for many years, is that competence is not the issue. Overall, collaborative efforts just end up better.
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Old 2011-02-13, 04:09   Link #10
Schneizel
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What Fluff really means is "gg has 2 editors max and it'd be retarded if they subbed every show together."
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Old 2011-02-13, 11:59   Link #11
Heibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
What Fluff really means is "gg has 2 editors max and it'd be retarded if they subbed every show together."
True, since gg has more than one show at a time have both editors working every show would be counterproductive and a waste of resources. Since we only do one series at a time our method works very well.
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Old 2011-02-18, 03:44   Link #12
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Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Would you or your group ever consider going to two editors again? Does your group still use the two editor system (I think AONE still might...)? Or are you a one-editor group all the way?
One reason that no one has really touched on yet is trust or secrecy. A group that edits directly from the raw + script must give an editor access to both. The same goes for QC encodes and QC'ers. The more QC'ers have access to a QC encode, the greater chance it has of escaping 'into the wild' before the group makes a formal release.

Otherwise it's mainly just a matter of communication, or lack thereof. Having two editors who don't communicate properly, instead choosing to engage in 'edit warz' where certain lines change back and forth several times before the release is the worst. It can also lead to problems with concurrent edits / version control if people aren't disciplined in that respect.
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Old 2011-02-18, 06:06   Link #13
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Originally Posted by Access View Post
One reason that no one has really touched on yet is trust or secrecy. A group that edits directly from the raw + script must give an editor access to both. The same goes for QC encodes and QC'ers. The more QC'ers have access to a QC encode, the greater chance it has of escaping 'into the wild' before the group makes a formal release.
That's why you put new members on trial-periods with reduced access until they are proven to be trustworthy. Even once trusted, only give people access to things they need access to. Things should almost never be leaked unless your group is a bunch of sleazebags and drama-queens, in which case, leaks are to be expected.
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Old 2011-02-18, 07:29   Link #14
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Why would you even care about leaks when the files are going to get released publicly anyway?
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Old 2011-02-18, 08:00   Link #15
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Indeed, I haven't worked with anyone who was at all concerned about files leaking out in several years.
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Old 2011-02-18, 12:57   Link #16
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Hmm... never knew that there was a two editor system going on for some groups. But anything is possible as they always say.

But frankly speaking, if you want to have a translated episode with English that doesn't make you go "wth am I reading now", all that's really needed is one GOOD editor. Too many cooks spoil the broth anyway.

The only problem is that most people nowadays have sub-par English and think that they know a lot. (Even I will get pwnt hardcore if I went up against someone really proficient at English)

Note to all: "Anyways" is NOT a word but you see it popping up in practically half the subs out there. Whatever dictionary that says it exists is just "cake". It's at best a verbal term that is over-used by people with poor English. (Like the word "Irregardless")

Then again, different groups make the various roles do different things. (Some groups require the editor(s) check for everything and some only requires them to be grammer nazis) So it's pretty much subjective.
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Old 2011-02-18, 13:32   Link #17
asunder
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Some of ANBU's projects use the two editor system (sunred being one of them). It can be useful in assessing people's abilities or to produce a well polished script. The requirements though are complementary editing styles and an inherent extra delay by adding another stage of editing.

A bit off-topic but...
The usage of "Anyways" in subs is acceptable and perhaps even appropriate depending on the speaker and the context. Since we're writing subtitles of spoken dialogue, we should be thinking how that character would naturally talk. Some of this might also be reflected in the original japanese.

Would you really expect a space admiral who's addressing his fleet to have the same style of speech as some teenage girl gossiping to her friends at school?
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Old 2011-02-18, 13:54   Link #18
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Originally Posted by asunder View Post
Some of ANBU's projects use the two editor system (sunred being one of them). It can be useful in assessing people's abilities or to produce a well polished script. The requirements though are complementary editing styles and an inherent extra delay by adding another stage of editing.

A bit off-topic but...
The usage of "Anyways" in subs is acceptable and perhaps even appropriate depending on the speaker and the context. Since we're writing subtitles of spoken dialogue, we should be thinking how that character would naturally talk. Some of this might also be reflected in the original japanese.

Would you really expect a space admiral who's addressing his fleet to have the same style of speech as some teenage girl gossiping to her friends at school?
I agree with the fact that we're subtitling from the perspective of spoken dialogue. However, it depends on whether we are trying to simulate characteristics of the person speaking it. Also, I feel (Personally) that it's inappropriate to assume that the characters have poor English. (Students for example)

I will take IS (Infinite Stratos) and Bleezebub for comparison. Both have students as the main focus in the show. However, one has international representatives and the other has deliquents. I think it's pretty clear which one you should use proper (Not to be mistaken as formal) English speech and for which you should. (Even so, not all deliquents necessarily speak poor English and not all "honor" students speak good English)

Exception being if the character is explicitly stated to have poor English (Like some characters in "Little Busters" [Manga]) or some other unique cases (Decision left to the editor).

Then again, using "anyways" for practically everything is not exactly excusable by "characterising the speech" or "from a spoken perspective."

PS: For the count, "anyways" is only one out of the many examples.
PPS: I agree with most of the stuff written by this guy, but not all of it.
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Old 2011-02-18, 17:21   Link #19
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Can't pass an excuse to pull out the magnifying glass and my trusty OED1 (1933) Compact Edition.
Spoiler for Anyways:
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Old 2011-02-18, 20:07   Link #20
False Dawn
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On a sub-related topic: I don't use "anyways" mostly because it looks and sounds ugly more than whether it's proper English or not. I just cringe thinking about it. It's also definitely more American than British (or rather, it's more of an archaic word to us nowadays).
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