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Old 2011-01-21, 17:27   Link #7361
azul120
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
There is no black and white, or good and evil in CG or our world for that matter Azul. The legitimacy of Lelouch's long term effort to bring down Britannia is irrelevant when it would drag the whole world into a war that a) would cause massive destruction all around the world b) cost millions if not billions of lives and c) he could very well lose.

That path is worse than not doing anything, or having a Zero Requiem IMO.

Perhaps the only righteous way of changing the system was Suzaku's, which admittedly was very unrealistic.
Not when Lelouch already HAD the means with the UFN, and would be able to get his sister back on his side who was also among those with Britannia and quite possibly be on the same page by then, Nunnally, to help get the ball rolling. In other words, win back Nunnally, beat Charles and checkmate Schneizel, Britannia defeated, victoly.

And again, you overlook the implications of the Zero Requiem, when it involves him being the worst person in the world, including Charles.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
So you'd rather see millions die because it would be the righteous thing to do?

what about those who shared Suzaku's views? he apparently had a lot of support hence why Deithard wanted Kallen to assassinate him. Those people just don't have a say? Starting a fight that will cost them their lives, a fight they didn't want midn you, is somehow righteous?
Who's to say as many if not more didn't die during the Zero Requiem?

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yes, I think both Euphie and Shirley's deaths were major turning points for Lelouch's character and the overall story potential. Zero Re:quiem is the best ending I believe we could have hoped for after it become clear Lelouch's path of carnage/revenge would be followed to completion. What Lelouch would have required is actual hope for the world to have chosen otherwise; and Euphie and Shirley's deaths each represented major losses of his few possible sources of it. I think for that reason, after their deaths, Euphie/Shirley would just be glad Lelouch eventually learned hope at all. Had they been alive and these things still happened though, I certainly agree they'd be very upset they let it get that far.
Lelouch never learned hope for himself though, to live on and keep the world running instead of bloodying it through a staged tyranny/assassination. He would be much more useful to the world alive than dead.

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Exactly. Personally, I think it is really important to note that despite his political ideals and secondary actions, Lelouch's motivation was explicitly a personal matter. Lelouch wanted to destroy Britannia for himself, not for the people; he wanted a gentle world for his sister to live in, not for the people. Lelouch was knowingly making sacrifices through the course of his revolution, which were fundamentally illegitimate in the context of happiness for all Japanese people. This is a foundational aspect of Lelouch's character, part of what makes him human, but it is also an immediate disqualifier for his revolution being evaluated as being 'correct' objectively. You cannot say that all Lelouch's actions were in fact justified, because he was only serving the portion of Japan amenable to his greater interests.

Remove every personal aspect from Lelouch's revolution, and I'm not sure if even Lelouch himself would believe it was right to have started it.

edit:

lol, Nogitsune, sorry for disagreeing with you right after you back me up on the Shirley issue. I think the important point of Suzaku's righteousness, is that the result he is looking at is actually Japan's happiness. For Lelouch, meanwhile, his desired result was actually Britannia's destruction, with Japan's happiness coming about as an after-effect. Or if we put it this way: for Lelouch, the result of Japan's happiness was also less important than the means of Britannia's destruction, just like Suzaku's result was secondary to his means of reforms internally. The difference is, one path embraced needless death and destruction for personal reasons, whereas the other one tried its best to prevent loss on either side, no matter the victim. Lelouch and Suzaku's characters both change throughout the series eventually--Lelouch slowly accepting more and more heroism as his responsibility (although still driven by revenge first and foremost I think), Suzaku meanwhile growing more and more uninhibited in his pursuit of power (again still for Japan; a fascinating contrast morally)--but at least at the start of the series, I think there is absolutely no question who is the more righteous one.
You're overlooking a few things. Lelouch actually did want to fix the world. It turned out he used Nunnally as an excuse when all was said and done.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
If all Suzaku cared about was dying to atone for killing his father, he would've committed suicide. He wanted, above all else, for his death to at least have some meaning. That's why when Jeremiah and Villetta frame him for Clovis' murder, he is fine with being executed for a crime he didn't commit. Sure, he is getting his punishment of killing his father, but he is also taking responsibility to save all the other Honarary Britannians from suffering. This is why he doesn't escape/join the resistance. He even says it on screen, "if I go, they'll go after all the honorary Britannians". Besides, Suzaku didn't lose faith in the system like Lelouch and Kallen...
This is true. He saw a "hero's death" on the battlefield more honorable than outright seppuku. Mao calls him out on getting himself into dangerous situations.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Why is the empire cruel though? Japan lost the war, but instead of getting over that fact they decided to dwell on the past and resist. They prevent any sort of reconstruction effort, allowing ghettos to exist and breed further terrorism.
If they won't bow down, they need to be put down.
Britannia is cruel for what they do, as Nogitsune put it. They are Lawful Evil. Thinking Elevens have no right to revolt is Lawful Stupid.

Or need I remind you of Nazi Germany or any number of historical tyrannies?

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
When Lelouch gets over things, he gets over them (well, or at least: he doesn't keep moping). It was the same with Nunnally's becoming governor, and even when she "died". It's not that Lelouch doesn't care, it's that he doesn't show it in a way you consider valid.
You mean to say he makes the most of things.

Last edited by azul120; 2011-01-21 at 18:23.
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Old 2011-01-21, 18:00   Link #7362
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
You mean to say he makes the most of things.
Yeah, pretty much.
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Old 2011-01-21, 20:36   Link #7363
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
What about Shirley, Milly, Rivalz, C.C.,...? Lelouch certainly proved that he cared about them on occasion - even in S1. He just wasn't obsessed with them.

He also only got his Geass because he was the only one who could be bothered to help the victims of a car accident. The same can't be said for, oh, I don't know, Rivalz and about a hundred other people?

In episode 5, Lelouch talked to C.C. about the suffering he had witnessed as a child and about how he wanted to end it. He and Suzaku were saying the exact same things until they arrived at how they were going to go about it. Just because Suzaku has no idea what he is doing, doesn't mean he's a better person.

Lelouch didn't intentionally kill innocents until fairly late in the series. Even Narita was a miscalculation - yeah, he got ahead of himself, but he never resolved to kill civilians (most of whom had probably been evacuated already, anyway). He was surprised by the extend of the damage done to the mountain side.



Oh, come on. Just because Lelouch didn't care about them nearly as much as he did about Nunnally, doesn't mean he didn't care about them at all. Lelouch has issues. So does Suzaku - killing himself and Zero at the same time would have screwed the Japanese over, too, but do you think he gave a damn at that moment? I could as well claim Suzaku only cared about his death wish and was just using Japan as an excuse, but it's disregarding an important part of his character, and that's what you're doing with Lelouch right now. If Lelouch lied to himself (and C.C.) in episode 5, then so did Suzaku - it doesn't make sense, though.



Doesn't he? If I support a cruel empire and help kill those who fight against it, can I really claim not to have any innocent blood on my hands? If I try to take away people's last hope without a second thought, does that make me righteous?



The rules of an evil empire != "what is right".
Suzaku sticks to the rules because he's afraid of doing anything else - because the last time he didn't, he kiled his own father and watched his people suffer the consequences. One could argue that he's not being righteous in the slightes, but a coward. It'd be slightly over the top in my opinion, but it seems more valid to me than the claim that Lelouch didn't give a damn when he explicitly stated otherwise even when it didn't benefit him.



Lelouch and Kallen do something to change the world. Suzaku becomes an accomplice of Britannia's at first, even if he claims otherwise. Only because of the Lancelot and, more importantly, Euphie did he get the chance to achieve any noteworthy results at all. Narita -- see above.



Without Lelouch, the JLF would have already been finished by then. Yeah, what he did sucked, but Suzaku was worse, in my opinion, ready to kill the JLF after they'd surrendered because of the orders of an evil empire he was supporting.




You make Kallen sound like Rolo.



That's what Lelouch tells himself, in case you missed how much the whole Shirley thing devastated him. He was angry at himself for hesitating even though he'd already killed Clovis with his own two hands. It was Lelouch's resolve, and he shared his convictions with Kallen. Lelouch is not a selective sociopath. He is guy with issues who way too often lets his emotions screw with him, but the same could be said for Suzaku.
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Old 2011-02-15, 11:53   Link #7364
justastranger
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you people donīt know anything about lelouch or about light,, light was someone who wanted to save the world of crimminals at the bginning but later he went insane and killed who ever was about to come in his way, In the end he couldn't take the world over and was killed by ryuk,,, lelouch was someone who wanted to take over Britannia and wanted revenge from his dad and on the same time wanted to create peace for his litter sister ( Nunally) and then everyone tought he went insane but everything was planned by the genius Lelouch Lamperouge ( he was the 99th emperor for a while ) he let all the anger of the world focus on him and then let the person in the zero mask ( suzaku ) kill him on purpose and then there was world peace.
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Old 2011-02-15, 11:56   Link #7365
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Old 2011-02-15, 17:57   Link #7366
azul120
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Originally Posted by justastranger View Post
you people donīt know anything about lelouch or about light,, light was someone who wanted to save the world of crimminals at the bginning but later he went insane and killed who ever was about to come in his way, In the end he couldn't take the world over and was killed by ryuk,,, lelouch was someone who wanted to take over Britannia and wanted revenge from his dad and on the same time wanted to create peace for his litter sister ( Nunally) and then everyone tought he went insane but everything was planned by the genius Lelouch Lamperouge ( he was the 99th emperor for a while ) he let all the anger of the world focus on him and then let the person in the zero mask ( suzaku ) kill him on purpose and then there was world peace.
The plan itself was insane. He ended up causing more damage than he had done earlier on. The ZR was rather unnecessary IMO, especially considering the avoidable circumstances that led to it.
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Old 2011-02-16, 00:09   Link #7367
Xander
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An insane plan by an insane man...who always thought the ends justified the means even when he was sane.

It's worth specifying that Lelouch's own brand of insanity is very different from Light's though.

Avoiding some of the tragedies would be easy, or so it seems, but unless you change the man...

...you're asking for a change in the universe around him where all the bad luck is replaced with good fortune.

That way we would have a more constructive story but perhaps things would have been more boring as a result.
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Old 2011-02-16, 00:16   Link #7368
azul120
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Except that with ZR, he'd completely lost his shit by the end.

Anyways, how about less bad luck, enough so that the ZR could be averted? Things wouldn't necessarily become boring, and more importantly, things wouldn't be as contrived as they were. Win-win.
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Old 2011-02-17, 01:47   Link #7369
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Wow people still going over about this?

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Originally Posted by justastranger View Post
you people donīt know anything about lelouch or about light,, light was someone who wanted to save the world of crimminals at the bginning but later he went insane and killed who ever was about to come in his way, In the end he couldn't take the world over and was killed by ryuk,,, lelouch was someone who wanted to take over Britannia and wanted revenge from his dad and on the same time wanted to create peace for his litter sister ( Nunally) and then everyone tought he went insane but everything was planned by the genius Lelouch Lamperouge ( he was the 99th emperor for a while ) he let all the anger of the world focus on him and then let the person in the zero mask ( suzaku ) kill him on purpose and then there was world peace.
No he wanted to destroy Britannia and everything related to his Father. Funny though his Father did it to protect him and Nunnally from his crazy brother.

Ironically after having an ephiphany his older Brother takes over his Black Knights while he accepts his destiny and takes control of Britannia and uses it to achieve his goals.

That's why I love the guy. In the end he ends up taking control of it.
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Old 2011-02-19, 08:14   Link #7370
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ZR can be seen as a mirror to what Treize did in Gundam Wing.

Both Lelouch and Treize had a dead wish, so the world can be inherited by a bloodless, innocent person. Can Lelouch and Treize rule the world and make the world better? Absolutely. But there will always be people who oppose them because they represent the opposite factions. Kinda like an invader invade your country. Even if they rule better than the previous ruler, there are always people oppose them because they are the "invader" and "overthrown" our society causing death in the progress.

A simpler example: I kill your love ones. Even if I did plenty of good after I kill your love ones, you would still want to kill me and the only way to break the chain of hate, is for me to die.
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Old 2011-02-19, 14:17   Link #7371
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It wasn't so much hatred towards Lelouch himself as it was hatred in general, and directing it towards a single person, that was invoked. Imagine if someone tried that during World War II. It would not end well.

Besides, there were other people in the series who got off scot free who in real life would be put up for war crimes.

And Lelouch had a death wish because as far as he knew either was dead or out of his reach. Including Nunnally in the FLEIJA blast. Except, wait, she wasn't, but he didn't find out until it was too late to turn back. Doh.
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Old 2011-02-19, 15:35   Link #7372
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We're both fortunate and unfortunate then, since Code Geass isn't meant to be an animated World War II documentary but a sci-fi/fantasy drama.

In our particular context, what fukarming wrote is entirely applicable as a possible parallel. Lelouch had far more personal baggage involved, to be sure, but the man himself also came to believe that was a workable plan for reasons that, for better or for worse, went beyond those concerns. Doesn't mean he was right though.

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Besides, there were other people in the series who got off scot free who in real life would be put up for war crimes.
Winners -which in this case would be the opposition to Lelouch- don't tend to end up on trial for war crimes.

We've been down this road before, but it's worth making the point again for the sake of those who might let the spirit of modern international law get to their heads, as opposed to the cruel reality of what actually happens after a war has ended in the vast majority of recorded cases. The list of those accused at Nuremberg wasn't chock full of Russians or Americans, to say the least, and certainly not because they hadn't committed war crimes.

Last edited by Xander; 2011-02-19 at 15:45.
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Old 2011-02-19, 21:07   Link #7373
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Well, maybe not in the same sense, but those extricated by way of being Designated Heroes were still Karma Houdinis for what they did.
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Old 2011-02-20, 11:38   Link #7374
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lelouch

bisexual and awesome.

May u rest in peace.
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Old 2011-02-20, 17:26   Link #7375
wredsa
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lelouch

bisexual and awesome.

May u rest in peace.
Lelouch is 100% straight, get your facts right.
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Old 2011-02-20, 17:53   Link #7376
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Lelouch is 100% straight, get your facts right.
HAHAHA--... echem.

Yes, Lelouch is awesome... and whether ZR would have happened had he not lost so many people close to him towards the end shall forever remain a mistery. Probably not, but it is undeniable than in Mutuality, he strongly implied that his personal feelings of guilt were a deciding factor.
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Old 2011-02-21, 13:08   Link #7377
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Well, he was screwed up at the time, and was already essentially looking to end his existence right after Nunnally's apparent death and the betrayal. Before that, the endgame was the more sensible one of fixing the world by beating the Britannian Empire with the help of the UFN.

It's too bad Nunnally had been hidden away and used as a pawn against him once again, not to mention that Villetta once again screwed him over. Lelouch was one unlucky bastard.
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Old 2011-02-21, 13:54   Link #7378
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Well, he was screwed up at the time, and was already essentially looking to end his existence right after Nunnally's apparent death and the betrayal. Before that, the endgame was the more sensible one of fixing the world by beating the Britannian Empire with the help of the UFN.

It's too bad Nunnally had been hidden away and used as a pawn against him once again, not to mention that Villetta once again screwed him over. Lelouch was one unlucky bastard.
He may be really unlucky, but he was still able to pull off the stunt that would bring the world peace (for now??) so that's probably what made him a genius in my opinion. But with him being screwed up, I think that was before Nunnally's apparent demise. With the apparent betrayal from his best friend Suzaku, that's when I saw that Lelouch lost it.
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:01   Link #7379
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He may be really unlucky, but he was still able to pull off the stunt that would bring the world peace (for now??) so that's probably what made him a genius in my opinion. But with him being screwed up, I think that was before Nunnally's apparent demise. With the apparent betrayal from his best friend Suzaku, that's when I saw that Lelouch lost it.
I say he lost it when his father told him to go and die as a child! xD

Well, actually, it really is difficult to say with Lelouch. I suppose if either Shirley or Nunnally had been around or even a C.C. with her memories intact, the chances for Zero Requiem would have decreased drastically. Suzaku seemingly betraying him was also pretty bad, but I bevlieve he could have recovered from that under different circumstances - at least to a notable extent.
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:06   Link #7380
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I say he lost it when his father told him to go and die as a child! xD

Well, actually, it really is difficult to say with Lelouch. I suppose if either Shirley or Nunnally had been around or even a C.C. with her memories intact, the chances for Zero Requiem would have decreased drastically. Suzaku seemingly betraying him was also pretty bad, but I bevlieve he could have recovered from that under different circumstances - at least to a notable extent.
Could have also lost it when Shirley died. But yeah, the Zero Requiem only happened because of C.C's current situation, so if anything happened to C.C beforehand then it would have been a much longer time before Lelouch eventually started it.
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