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Old 2011-02-20, 20:39   Link #8001
Miraluka
18 forever
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But personally? I would prefer if you guys use your mental Prowlness to discuss theories and ways to work with the Science and Magic of toaruverse.
When someone post there it seems not many are interested to keep the discussion and soon the thread becomes a bit of dead .

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But I guess I can't choose your solutions.
Fiiiiiixeeeed.

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P.S - Woot, 8000 mark!
Fine, 2000 left to reach 10 000 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I'm busy watching over the Toaru Majutsu no Index Wiki to participate. (Even deleted my last post.)Discussions like these are a big headache.
Good Job!
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Old 2011-02-20, 20:47   Link #8002
Marcus H.
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Quote:
Good Job!
You're not even contributing to the Wiki! O.o
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Spring 2014: No Game No Life, Date A Live II, Magica Wars, Fairy Tail and Isshukan Friends.


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MyAnimeList Status|| Watching: 35. Completed: 208. Plan to watch: 35.

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Old 2011-02-20, 20:50   Link #8003
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
You're not even contributing to the Wiki! O.o
I do time to time, only when I can and have a better device to access the Wiki, sometimes the "edit" and "login" can't be displayed on my mobile .

Actually my little contribution I do is inviting more people to watch this series.
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Old 2011-02-20, 20:59   Link #8004
Marcus H.
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Well, I hope they register, coz I've been getting more Unregistered Contributors lately. And it's giving TheObserver a headache as well.

By the way, I have read the Light Novels, but have skipped all of the arcs after The Book of the Law Arc. Is it still worth it to go back and read the arcs on the Daihaseisai and La Regina del Mare Adriatico?
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Spring 2014: No Game No Life, Date A Live II, Magica Wars, Fairy Tail and Isshukan Friends.


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Old 2011-02-20, 21:01   Link #8005
bizzi
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Actually my little contribution I do is inviting more people to watch this series.
I do the same XD
I made 3-4 friends like this series, and I do my best attracting people in the dark side by putting awesome screencap-wallpapers on my laptop, watching new RAW episodes at school (I'm in a computer science school so we all got laptops), putting Accel's famous "this is my victory march" quote as a sig on the school's boards, and finally "favoriting"/uploading Index-related content on my Youtube channel.
I'm evil

EDIT: I also wrote on the whiteboard at the top "too bad! from now on it's a one-way-road!" and "but still I've decided to stay the strongest in front of that kid... shitholes" in Japanese (while my friend was writing Korean!), but I guess no one understands that
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Old 2011-02-20, 21:03   Link #8006
Flere821
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I'd say reading the novels is worth it, it just have so much more details.

For example, wasn't there a argument on the previous page about Kuroko's action when Sherry attacked? Kuroko can only take two person at a time, and to save the trouble of discussing who to go first Kuroko just grabbed the two who are making the most trouble at the time and can't agree to Touma's auggestions. Kuroko also wanted to come back and grab the remaining person (Hyouka), but by then Touma ran off and Kazakiri ran after him, leading to Kuroko taking other civilians to safety instead of wasting time looking for people.

All that was in the novels, but I'm not sure if it was expilicitly stated in the anime.
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Old 2011-02-20, 21:07   Link #8007
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
By the way, I have read the Light Novels, but have skipped all of the arcs after The Book of the Law Arc. Is it still worth it to go back and read the arcs on the Daihaseisai and La Regina del Mare Adriatico?
La Regina del Mare Adriatico is a good read, in a way it brings a close to the book of law arc.

Plus it has that whole Dan Brown atmosphere going for it.

...And abit of Pirates of the C now that I think about it...
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Old 2011-02-20, 21:28   Link #8008
I_am_Kami
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Originally Posted by bizzi View Post
I do the same XD
I made 3-4 friends like this series, and I do my best attracting people in the dark side by putting awesome screencap-wallpapers on my laptop, watching new RAW episodes at school (I'm in a computer science school so we all got laptops), putting Accel's famous "this is my victory march" quote as a sig on the school's boards, and finally "favoriting"/uploading Index-related content on my Youtube channel.
I'm evil

EDIT: I also wrote on the whiteboard at the top "too bad! from now on it's a one-way-road!" and "but still I've decided to stay the strongest in front of that kid... shitholes" in Japanese (while my friend was writing Korean!), but I guess no one understands that
The dark side?
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Old 2011-02-20, 21:41   Link #8009
SuzushinaYuriko
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
I do the same XD
I made 3-4 friends like this series, and I do my best attracting people in the dark side by putting awesome screencap-wallpapers on my laptop, watching new RAW episodes at school (I'm in a computer science school so we all got laptops), putting Accel's famous "this is my victory march" quote as a sig on the school's boards, and finally "favoriting"/uploading Index-related content on my Youtube channel.
I'm evil

EDIT: I also wrote on the whiteboard at the top "too bad! from now on it's a one-way-road!" and "but still I've decided to stay the strongest in front of that kid... shitholes" in Japanese (while my friend was writing Korean!), but I guess no one understands that
Yes, they should come over to the dark side. We have cookies.

I've been trying my best, but not a lot of people seem to be interested to go into as much depth in Index as we do. I have, however, successfully converted my friend into an Accelerator fangirl (muahahahaha) and the advisor for our anime club is currently watching Index II each week.
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Old 2011-02-20, 22:01   Link #8010
I_am_Kami
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Originally Posted by yukirosuzuka View Post
Yes, they should come over to the dark side. We have cookies.

I've been trying my best, but not a lot of people seem to be interested to go into as much depth in Index as we do. I have, however, successfully converted my friend into an Accelerator fangirl (muahahahaha) and the advisor for our anime club is currently watching Index II each week.
Oh god an anime club. Wow. I've had quite a few friends watch this show. But it's a bit hard for me to do converting. Im raised in a neighborhood of dropouts and drugees who would find anime gay and they are my good friends. Though I myself ain't much of a tough guy. I just look it. Though this week I'm going with a group of friends to comicon.
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Old 2011-02-20, 22:58   Link #8011
EvilSamurai
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volume 15 chapter 3 done
chapter 3
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Old 2011-02-21, 02:37   Link #8012
IppoTsuko
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i'm born in a country where everyone is crazy about mousehunt and backyard monsters ==
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Old 2011-02-21, 05:41   Link #8013
Shinji103
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Everything in one go. Spoiler tags to save page space:
Spoiler for To yukirosuzuka:


Spoiler for To MonkeyDude:


Spoiler for To Wilfriback:


Spoiler for To I_am_Kami:


Fingers are a bit cold and a little stiff, so expect typos. Too tired and lazy to go back over everything though.
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Old 2011-02-21, 06:15   Link #8014
giorno
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
You're still missing part of my point; even if she's not useful (I'd still argue that she's not as useless as you say), it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't contribute. The Amakusa members and all those other characters don't have IB to cancel out the Front Seat members' broken abilities, yet they still help whenever they're around to.
they are part of that world. Mikoto isn't.

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And you're trying to limit the scope to just the broken bad guys; for example, what about Sherry Cromwell? The only reason Mikoto missed out on that fight was because of "convenient" (read, plot hole) reasons for her being absent at just the right time to miss the fight.
no, if anything, the plot hole here is Touma not waiting for Kuroko to come back to teleport Kazakiri to safety, and Kazakiri running off after him

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I know you've missed my point entirely there, because your whole first line sided with me. You're talking about Divine Punishment being a reason for why Mikoto wouldn't be in a fight; how so? Is she going to go "Oh crap, this guy has an ability that the readers know I can't beat" or something? So she's not going to know that she should stay out of a fight; she's not reading/watching a title called Toaru Index like us.
i agree with you. That said, do you actually think Mikoto should have fought Vento instead of listening to Touma and just do what he told her to do? (if so, you should go back and read that part again)


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The Railgun manga would like to have a word with you.
Mikoto has displayed she is fully capable of not only using great strategy and tactics to fight powerful opponents, but can also fend off multiple powerful opponents in succession while severely exhausted both mentally and physically. She took on Mugino immediately after Frenda, after already having been running around the city blowing up labs in the Railgun side of the SISTERS arc. She's far more capable than you think; like other things, the Index series just has a way of making Mikoto look dumber than she is
oh yeah, the railgun manga, when she was nearly killed by a much more experienced level 0 due to sheer difference in experience and tactics

Mikoto is a genius(being a level 5), is very creative in the use of her power and is quick to adapt in battle. That said, she's still just a middle schooler. One of the main differences between her and the guys who usually help Touma, is that they are experienced "pros", while she isn't. They are also already involved in that stuff, while Mikoto isn't

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"Horrid writing to keep including her for fanservice?" How does the Amakasua church members contribute to Touma fighting off Acqua any more than Mikoto would?
you're kidding, right? You're saying the Amakusa who knew what they were fighting against, had ways to fight him and even developed a specific magic to kill him wouldn't fare better than Mikoto against Acqua?

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What's horrid writing, is force-feeding us contrived and forced reasons to keep Mikoto out, which has been happening in Index for a long time. Teleporting a Level 5 out of danger before a helpless civilian? (or so they believed at the time, anyway)
Teleport doesn't take more than a few seconds. To Kuroko, all 4 of them are helpess civilians she should bring to safety. And with exception of Touma whom she can't teleport, she planned to teleport all 3 girls out.

Quote:
Missing the point again, guys. Mikoto doesn't know about any Arnold Schwarzenegger character; Acqua being powerful isn't relevant, because Mikoto doesn't know anything about that. That's out-of-series reasoning. Furthermore, having realized she's in love with Touma would only make her all the more willing to help him.
so you think Mikoto, in a very emotional moment, simply respecting Touma's will is a forced plot hole to keep her away from the fight. I wholly disagree

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Again, Mikoto wouldn't know anything about how powerful Fiamma is. But even if she did, it's Mikoto; that wouldn't stop her from trying to help.
this is a moot point, really. The only instances in which Mikoto could have actually been involved in the main fights are volume 3(and she WAS involved), volume 6, volume 8(again, she was involved), volumes 9-10(in which Touma didn't want her to be involved), volume 13(in which she IS involved) and volume 16

saying that she wouldn't be of any use against Fiamma, or Carissa, is useless, she never had a chance to be involved in those fights in the first place


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1. How so? Forcing inconsistency to move the plot forward os a plot hole; why didn't Kamachi at least find a way to bring about the revelation about Kazakiri without forcing a plot hole on us?
it's not such a big plot hole, we know Touma's like that and Kazakiri is just a panicked girl who doesn't know what to do in that situation, her following after Touma instead of waiting for Kuroko really that forced...
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Old 2011-02-21, 07:07   Link #8015
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
they are part of that world. Mikoto isn't.
You guys keep using the same "logic" for this ; why would Mikoto care what side is what?
When good writing is sacrificed to force characters on the sidelines, then it becomes not good writing.

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no, if anything, the plot hole here is Touma not waiting for Kuroko to come back to teleport Kazakiri to safety, and Kazakiri running off after him
Fyi, a plot hole is basically when inconsistency occurs to further the plot, i.e. Kuroko leaving a helpless civilian in danger to get a level 5 out of harm's way. Touma running off to the fight is not a plot hole; it's something he's been doing the entire series, hence not inconsistent. He's always jumping into fights that don't involve him.

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i agree with you. That said, do you actually think Mikoto should have fought Vento instead of listening to Touma and just do what he told her to do? (if so, you should go back and read that part again)
What reason does Mikoto have to listen to Touma and let him face the danger all alone? That is inconsistent with Mikoto's type of character, yet is constantly being forced to keep her out of the action. And no, I shouldn't have to go back and read it again.

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oh yeah, the railgun manga, when she was nearly killed by a much more experienced level 0 due to sheer difference in experience and tactics
erm, unless you're talking about Touma (who has Imagine Breaker and didn't actually use any tactics, but neither did Mikoto), then I have no idea who you're talking about; Mikoto never faced any Level 0s in the manga, let alone nearly get killed by one. Her worst fights were against Frenda and Mugino consecutively; fights that she won. (although admittedly she ran away when Mugino regained consciousness and came after her, but due in part to not needing to fight anymore)

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Mikoto is a genius(being a level 5), is very creative in the use of her power and is quick to adapt in battle. That said, she's still just a middle schooler. One of the main differences between her and the guys who usually help Touma, is that they are experienced "pros", while she isn't. They are also already involved in that stuff, while Mikoto isn't
Touma is only two years older than her and has handled plenty of fights by himself too. And Stiyl is Touma's age (15).........despite his appearance. Kaori is 18. Somehow I don't think age has much to do with it.

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you're kidding, right? You're saying the Amakusa who knew what they were fighting against, had ways to fight him and even developed a specific magic to kill him wouldn't fare better than Mikoto against Acqua?
Yeah, bad example and it was quite a bit off my point anyway, so let me just make a statement more to my point; Mikoto doesn't know about Acqua being super powerful, but even if she did, she wouldn't leave a battered and beaten Touma to go off and fight him alone, as far as she knew. Even if she knew he had help, she wouldn't just leave him in that shape. Just the same as with Touma; if he didn't have Imagine Breaker, would he still try to help people regardless of the danger? Absolutely.

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Teleport doesn't take more than a few seconds. To Kuroko, all 4 of them are helpess civilians she should bring to safety. And with exception of Touma whom she can't teleport, she planned to teleport all 3 girls out.
Irrelevant; priorities are priorities. You don't leave your bags out of sight in an airport for even a few seconds, and you don't leave civilians in harm's way for any longer than you can help; that means getting them out ASAP.
And to Kuroko, they were not all helpless; putting Touma aside since she knew she couldn't teleport him, Index and Hyouka were the helpless ones. Mikoto was a Level 5 Esper who had just earlier demonstrated, in front of Kuroko, that she can more than handle Sherry.

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so you think Mikoto, in a very emotional moment, simply respecting Touma's will is a forced plot hole to keep her away from the fight. I wholly disagree
I think Mikoto leaving the man she loves to go and face an opponent alone, while injured, is a forced plot hole. Absolutely. Positively. most definitely. Plot hole, bad writing, etc. Her being emotionally just means all the more that she'd give in to emotion and help him.

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it's not such a big plot hole, we know Touma's like that and Kazakiri is just a panicked girl who doesn't know what to do in that situation, her following after Touma instead of waiting for Kuroko really that forced...
Erm, I'm not talking that being a plot hole. (context ) The plot hole was Mikoto being teleported out instead of Hyouka, the (supposedly) helpless civilian. Which would mean that Kamachi would have had to think of a different way to reveal Hyouka's secret yes; but the part where Hyouka went after Touma isn't what I'm talking about, nor do I think it's a plot hole either.
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Last edited by Shinji103; 2011-02-21 at 07:19.
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Old 2011-02-21, 07:20   Link #8016
MonkeyDude
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
You're still missing part of my point; even if she's not useful (I'd still argue that she's not as useless as you say), it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't contribute. The Amakusa members and all those other characters don't have IB to cancel out the Front Seat members' broken abilities, yet they still help whenever they're around to.
And you're trying to limit the scope to just the broken bad guys; for example, what about Sherry Cromwell? The only reason Mikoto missed out on that fight was because of "convenient" (read, plot hole) reasons for her being absent at just the right time to miss the fight.
I'm not saying that she's completely useless as she does serve her purpose of defeating opponents with a rather staggering gap in power, but all she will accomplish "contributing" to the opponents Touma typically end up fighting would be at best getting somewhat injured (correct me if I'm wrong, but all she's experienced so far are minor cuts and bruises right?), at worst death since she's facing opponents far beyond the scope of her abilities.

The Amakusa is around 50 strong and with Itsuwa at the center challenged Acqua and still lost. Even with the support of Kanzaki they still lost. How the hell do you expect Mikoto to "contribute" here? The only logical conclusion here is that at best she'll become a liability and at worst...well someone will have to become a meat shield for her because she is someone to be protected (go go plot armor).

You keep bringing up Sherry and yeah you're right she could have contributed in that fight. I'm not exactly sure how that fight will end up given that Mikoto doesn't fight to kill and Sherry can pretty much endlessly reconstruct Ellis. Will including Mikoto really contribute anything to the plot if she were involved is the question at hand. We are at an impasse concerning this question so let's just say we agree to disagree.

And you really need to look up the definition of a plot hole. There was no such thing because while convenient, it was explained in a way that no such plot holes exist. So let's go over some simple vocabulary shall we? Convenient does not equal plot hole okay?

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I know you've missed my point entirely there, because your whole first line sided with me. You're talking about Divine Punishment being a reason for why Mikoto wouldn't be in a fight; how so? Is she going to go "Oh crap, this guy has an ability that the readers know I can't beat" or something? So she's not going to know that she should stay out of a fight; she's not reading/watching a title called Toaru Index like us.
As for if she could get around DP, I'd be willing to bet Mikoto would actually bee a good match for Vento. Bad guys not caring for peope around is nothing new for any hero/heroine.
So I can't even consider valid points you've made without it invalidating my argument? What's the point of even discussing this in the first place when one side doesn't even listen to valid points made by the other?

I'm not saying DP is a reason why Mikoto "wouldn't be in a fight" but I'm saying it's why she would serve no purpose even if she was involved in the fight. DP would just instantly KO her out of the fight since she would probably display some form of enmity against Vento if she witnesses a scene of say Vento attacking that building with innocent civilians in it. So DP kicks in and we just wasted pages just to see Mikoto get knocked out and become a liability to Touma.

You are just reiterating my statement of how I mentioned that if she could get around DP, then yes she can actually fight Vento to a degree. But since DP exists, it's a moot point so no real reason to dwell on it.

Quote:
The Railgun manga would like to have a word with you.
Mikoto has displayed she is fully capable of not only using great strategy and tactics to fight powerful opponents, but can also fend off multiple powerful opponents in succession while severely exhausted both mentally and physically. She took on Mugino immediately after Frenda, after already having been running around the city blowing up labs in the Railgun side of the SISTERS arc. She's far more capable than you think; like other things, the Index series just has a way of making Mikoto look dumber than she is.
Powerful opponents that are still weaker than her even in her weakened state (except Mugino, but wouldn't you say that it's rather convenient that she can form a shield to deflect her attacks?)...The only true opponent she has faced that was beyond her league is Accelerator and guess what happened? I can also say that the Railgun series has a way of over-glorifying her battle capabilities because hey...she's the damn protagonist. You can't really expect the protagonist to lose right? And hey she sure has a hard time fighting her opponents...with barely getting injured and all.

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"Horrid writing to keep including her for fanservice?" How does the Amakasua church members contribute to Touma fighting off Acqua any more than Mikoto would? What's horrid writing, is force-feeding us contrived and forced reasons to keep Mikoto out, which has been happening in Index for a long time. Teleporting a Level 5 out of danger before a helpless civilian? (or so they believed at the time, anyway) Sphinx running off just before the bad guy attacks? Bleh.
I also again submit that you far underestimate Mikoto.
Please read Volume 16 in its entirety again. Actually no forget it. Reading through v16 again won't destroy your illusion of how Mikoto would be more useful than the Amakusa. Read this again...the entire Amakusa organization with their Supreme Pontiff. If you think that Mikoto would be able to contribute any more than the organization THAT ACTUALLY FOUGHT AND DEFEATED ACQUA...then not even IB can destroy that illusion of yours. Don't forget that Touma didn't do much of anything besides blocking Acqua's final attack.

And I submit that you far overestimate Mikoto. At least use that line when you were referring to Sherry or hell even Vento. But Acqua? And it's the novel where Mikoto actually got some great development...not exactly sure what you want anymore really.

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Erm, I strongly dispute this; Kuroko is a responsible member of Judgement who is tasked with upholding the peace and protecting the citizenry. So much so, that she clearly and specifically told Mikoto that she would fight against her if Mikoto became an enemy of Academy City; yet she decides to leave a (assumed) Level 0 in danger to get the Level 5 out? Plot hole.
Again you need to look up what plot hole means since you love to use it incorrectly. Mikoto isn't exactly causing any problems to AC so why would Kuroko fight her? This means that no sense of duty for Judgment would supersede her desire to protect her Onee-sama. Add in the fact that she's not exactly too keen on the idea of leaving "that brute" and her Onee-sama alone together even for a brief period of time and hey she's easily candidate #1 of 2 for that teleport slot.

*sigh* I don't even know why I'm bothering replying to this since you aren't even considering OUR points at all. You have at least 4 guys rebutting you and you are still rather steadfast in your beliefs. I'm not exactly sure whether I should commend you or call you delusional, but I wanna go back to lurking so please don't even bother replying to my 'rant' so I won't be compelled to make a reply.

Hell I want to see more Itsuwa, but you don't see me raising a storm as to how and why she deserves more screen time. Though actually I'm wanting to see more of Index since her character and importance recently just clicked in my head and it all suddenly makes sense now...anyway, /lurks
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Old 2011-02-21, 07:24   Link #8017
I_am_Kami
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You say plothole we say a part of the plot. Really we are going back and forth on this argument that really is no big deal. Your "plotholes" are really just very minor thing compared to big plot holes that are later on filled up in this series.

one plot hole im looking for being solved was after touma is crushed by Biaggios crosses why didn't he die or at least come back looking close to death. I've said its "Its" fault and im still waiting.
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Old 2011-02-21, 08:04   Link #8018
bizzi
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Quote:
Kuroko leaving a helpless civilian in danger to get a level 5 out of harm's way
Come on guys. Just face the truth. Stop trolling.
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Old 2011-02-21, 08:18   Link #8019
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
I'm not saying that she's completely useless as she does serve her purpose of defeating opponents with a rather staggering gap in power, but all she will accomplish "contributing" to the opponents Touma typically end up fighting would be at best getting somewhat injured (correct me if I'm wrong, but all she's experienced so far are minor cuts and bruises right?), at worst death since she's facing opponents far beyond the scope of her abilities.
There you go again with the underestimating. I'm not sure why you think she'd be brought to near death against all the bad guys; sure she wouldn't be steamrolling anybody, but "far beyond the scope of her abilities" is pushing it.
Anyway, you're still missing my point; you're looking at it from an out-of-series view. I'm talking about it being how Mikoto wouldn't just leave him alone when he goes off to fight. So it's forced how Kamachi keeps coming up with forced reasons for keeping her out when she's around to help.

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The Amakusa is around 50 strong and with Itsuwa at the center challenged Acqua and still lost. Even with the support of Kanzaki they still lost. How the hell do you expect Mikoto to "contribute" here? The only logical conclusion here is that at best she'll become a liability and at worst...well someone will have to become a meat shield for her because she is someone to be protected (go go plot armor).
Now you're taking my point a bit too straight there. By "contribute," I don't mean to make a difference so much as to try to contribute. Even if Mikoto knew that she wouldn't be able to defeat Acqua, she would still go and try to at least make a difference that could help Touma win; that's just her kind of character. Touma would do the same, even if he didn't have Imagine Breaker. Mikoto wouldn't be any more of a liability than everybody else that was getting their butts kicked though, so from your point of view, why did any of them bother to help Touma at all if they were just going to get beaten down by Acqua? Same reason that Mikoto would; to try and help. To make an effort instead of sitting on their hands and doing nothing.

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You keep bringing up Sherry and yeah you're right she could have contributed in that fight. I'm not exactly sure how that fight will end up given that Mikoto doesn't fight to kill and Sherry can pretty much endlessly reconstruct Ellis. Will including Mikoto really contribute anything to the plot if she were involved is the question at hand. We are at an impasse concerning this question so let's just say we agree to disagree.
Touma doesn't fight to kill either; he could bring a nice knife and stab people in the face instead of Falcon Punch them. So Mikoto not killing is irrelevant, and she has plenty of ways to incapacitate without killing, mainly just electrocute them.
Plenty of characters in anime, not even just in Index, have jumped in to help with a fight despite having no contribution to the fight. Heck, in US comics like Teen Titans, the Justice League would show up just to do nothing more than eat a combined superhero weakness grenade (flashbang, kryponite, etc.) while Deathstroke makes his escape. (and I speak of a specific issue; it was a whle ago, but yes this did happen )
It's more important to stay consitant in this case. Mikoto wouldn't have made the plot any different, but she wouldn't have hurt it either.

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And you really need to look up the definition of a plot hole. There was no such thing because while convenient, it was explained in a way that no such plot holes exist. So let's go over some simple vocabulary shall we? Convenient does not equal plot hole okay?
Yes I know what it means:
"A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic."
And actually, it is in a way a result of plot holes (i.e. inconsistencies) that Mikoto was excluded from the Sherry fight; Kuroko's inconsistency of priorities in getting people out of danger (Hyouka was in far more danger than Mikoto, as far as they all knew), and Sphinx, who is always content to stay around Index in her shirt, suddenly jumps out and runs away at just the right time. Convenient and inconsistent.

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So I can't even consider valid points you've made without it invalidating my argument? What's the point of even discussing this in the first place when one side doesn't even listen to valid points made by the other?
Umm, huh? I've been directly addressing your points. I'm not sure how I can respond directly to your points without listening to them......you just misunderstood my point which led to you making a statement that agreed with me.

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I'm not saying DP is a reason why Mikoto "wouldn't be in a fight" but I'm saying it's why she would serve no purpose even if she was involved in the fight. DP would just instantly KO her out of the fight since she would probably display some form of enmity against Vento if she witnesses a scene of say Vento attacking that building with innocent civilians in it. So DP kicks in and we just wasted pages just to see Mikoto get knocked out and become a liability to Touma.
And if this was anybody besides mikoto, say Kaori, Kamachi would have undoubtedly "wasted pages just to see her become a liability." You're looking at this far too much from an out-of-series point of view.
To come at this from another approach, say for example, two partners who are always side-by-side in a show. One of them is going to fight a bad guy while the other is incapacitated and helpless to do anything; should the writers violate the consistency of their partnership and split them up for the scene just to avoid "wasting time" with the useless character? The only difference here is that Mikoto and Touma aren't actually partners, but she'd still come to help him against Vento in a heartbeat.
And just so you know, the above scenario happens all the time even between non-partners in a show; lots of shounen animes for example. One guy gets mowed down right away and is there bleeding and forced to watch or just lay unconscious while the other guy struggles to beat the bad guy, and sometimes even the second guy gets mowed down too. from you're point of view, it's a waste of screentime. Yet it's still done. (and no not just in shounen anime) So why is that so wrong here? Not that I want to see Mikoto lying in a pool of her own blood mind you, but Ido want to see consistency for Mikoto's character, not see her get sidelined by forced reasoning.
Although strictly speaking, it might actually help Mikoto develop as a character to be nearly killed; a near-death experience is defintely a good to obtain perspective.

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You are just reiterating my statement of how I mentioned that if she could get around DP, then yes she can actually fight Vento to a degree. But since DP exists, it's a moot point so no real reason to dwell on it.
Refer to above. (don't want to type all that again )

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Powerful opponents that are still weaker than her even in her weakened state (except Mugino, but wouldn't you say that it's rather convenient that she can form a shield to deflect her attacks?)...The only true opponent she has faced that was beyond her league is Accelerator and guess what happened? I can also say that the Railgun series has a way of over-glorifying her battle capabilities because hey...she's the damn protagonist. You can't really expect the protagonist to lose right? And hey she sure has a hard time fighting her opponents...with barely getting injured and all.
Frenda was hardly weak; just because officially she's a lower level doesn't make her a pushover. She used her abilities combined with tools and strategies to become a formidable opponent.
I can't really say anything to her barely being injured, especially since those were my own criticisms of the series , but then again that was mostly the anime; she actually took some lickings during the fight with Mugino, and some close calls against Frenda. Either way it doesn't change that she used top-notch tactics in conjunction with her skills to beat two formidable opponents in a row while already being weakened.
As for Accelerator, well, it's Accelerator. Honestly, he;s not so much powerful as much as hax. Just a different kind of hax from Divine Punishment and such. He's number 1 because his power has the ability to make him physically (not mentally, i.e. DP) invinceable. The only thing besides magic that can have a chance in hell of beating him is Imagine Breaker, only because it cancels out Accelerator's power. It doesn't matter how powerful you are when your power is just deflected, not overpowered. Mikoto could have the power to blow up a city block in one shot and with ease; Accelerator would just deflect everything, the blast, the debris, even the wind.

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Please read Volume 16 in its entirety again. Actually no forget it. Reading through v16 again won't destroy your illusion of how Mikoto would be more useful than the Amakusa. Read this again...the entire Amakusa organization with their Supreme Pontiff. If you think that Mikoto would be able to contribute any more than the organization THAT ACTUALLY FOUGHT AND DEFEATED ACQUA...then not even IB can destroy that illusion of yours. Don't forget that Touma didn't do much of anything besides blocking Acqua's final attack.
I forgive you for not getting what I actually meant since you of course didn't read this post before making that post , but I'll say it again; like all those other characters who were swept aside by Acqua, it isn't so much that she contribute to the fight so much as she be consistent with her character and try to contribute. Just like all those others.

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And I submit that you far overestimate Mikoto. At least use that line when you were referring to Sherry or hell even Vento. But Acqua? And it's the novel where Mikoto actually got some great development...not exactly sure what you want anymore really.
Refer to above; and what I want is for consistency with Mikoto's character, i.e. not see her letting the guy who saved her and her sisters' lives, let alone being the man she loves, go off to fight and not lift a finger to help him regardless of what he says.

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Again you need to look up what plot hole means since you love to use it incorrectly. Mikoto isn't exactly causing any problems to AC so why would Kuroko fight her? This means that no sense of duty for Judgment would supersede her desire to protect her Onee-sama. Add in the fact that she's not exactly too keen on the idea of leaving "that brute" and her Onee-sama alone together even for a brief period of time and hey she's easily candidate #1 of 2 for that teleport slot.
Plot hole = (generally) inconsistency with plot/story events; in this case inconsistency with Kuroko handling her role as a member of Judgement in getting the more safe Level 5 out of harm's way before the helpless civilian Hyouka.
First off, what does it matter why they would fight? The fact of the matter is Kuroko specifically said that she would fight Mikoto, right to her.
Second I guess you haven't read the manga, at least not that much, because that's where this line was said.

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*sigh* I don't even know why I'm bothering replying to this since you aren't even considering OUR points at all. You have at least 4 guys rebutting you and you are still rather steadfast in your beliefs. I'm not exactly sure whether I should commend you or call you delusional, but I wanna go back to lurking so please don't even bother replying to my 'rant' so I won't be compelled to make a reply.
There's....really no need to start being offensive. I listen to your points and I debate them. That's what happens in a debate, which is what's going on here. Of course I don't agree with you and am debating with you.
Just because four guys are debating against me means I'm wrong? Furthermore, how do you know there aren't 10 guys here who agree with me but just don't want to bother taking part? That's....rather ignorant. In fact, I think we can safey say that there are a lot more than that who agree with me across the Internet; just because they're not here doesn't make me wrong in what I think or believe.

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Hell I want to see more Itsuwa, but you don't see me raising a storm as to how and why she deserves more screen time. Though actually I'm wanting to see more of Index since her character and importance recently just clicked in my head and it all suddenly makes sense now...anyway, /lurks
What I "raised" was a comment in the episode 19 thread that people disagreed with me on. I find no fault in that, but I do find it insulting when somebody starts mentioning words like "delusional" just because I don't agree with them. You don't see me saying people are delusional for being steadfast in what they think. Should I just conform to the majority then?
Most of all though, it looks like the part where you got really frustrated with me was the part where you misread my point (again), that point being that I wouldn't expect Mikoto to be able to do anything against Acqua, but to be consistent with her own character and try, just like everybody else Acqua defeated.

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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
You say plothole we say a part of the plot. Really we are going back and forth on this argument that really is no big deal. Your "plotholes" are really just very minor thing compared to big plot holes that are later on filled up in this series.
It's a plot hole because it's inconsistent with Kuroko being a responsible a member of Judgement, which happens to be the definition of "plot hole." You get the people in most danger out first; it's common sense, no matter what you say. This point I can't concede on. And of course I'm focusing on these plot holes and not the other ones; those plot holes don't have anything to do with my stance that Mikoto shoud get some more action time when she appears.
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Last edited by Shinji103; 2011-02-21 at 08:29.
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Old 2011-02-21, 08:35   Link #8020
giorno
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
You guys keep using the same "logic" for this ; why would Mikoto care what side is what?
When good writing is sacrificed to force characters on the sidelines, then it becomes not good writing.
it's not about Mikoto wouldn't care, it's Mikoto is not going to get involved unless somebody else involves her, or she happens to stumble upon it


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Fyi, a plot hole is basically when inconsistency occurs to further the plot
yep, which is why Kuroko teleporting Index and Misaka who are bitching and losing time over who should be teleported first instead of grabbing Kazakiri and Index is not a plot hole

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i.e. Kuroko leaving a helpless civilian in danger to get a level 5 out of harm's way.
you are saying we should consider the fact that Kuroko knows that Misaka may be able to defend herself, and not the fact that Kuroko is still a first year middle schooler, is alone, has to evacuate as many people as she can in as little time as possible, and Mikoto and Index are the closets to her, and are actively bitching about who should be teleported first, and making them all lose time because of it

And also the fact that Kuroko plans on teleporting back right away to take Kazakiri to safety as well


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Touma running off to the fight is not a plot hole; it's something he's been doing the entire series, hence not inconsistent. He's always jumping into fights that don't involve him.
yes, but he's always generally tried to keep other people out of harms way, before/while running into battle

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What reason does Mikoto have to listen to Touma and let him face the danger all alone? That is inconsistent with Mikoto's type of character, yet is constantly being forced to keep her out of the action. And no, I shouldn't have to go back and read it again.
Spoiler:


how is this inconsistent, exactly? Actually, how is she NOT actively helping them, exactly?

And keep in mind that this is all she knows about what's going on, Touma and Index are trying to save their friend who's currently been turned into "something"(mikoto has no idea about what kazakiri has been turned into, just that she needs to be saved, and quickly), and the hound dogs are chasing them to stop them

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rm, unless you're talking about Touma (who has Imagine Breaker and didn't actually use any tactics, but neither did Mikoto), then I have no idea who you're talking about; Mikoto never faced any Level 0s in the manga, let alone nearly get killed by one.
I'm talking about Frenda, you know, the one who nearly killed Mikoto, and probably would have succeded if she didn't make her snap with her monologue about how she likes to kill


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Touma is only two years older than her and has handled plenty of fights by himself too.
Yes, way more fights than Mikoto, in fact. Which is why he's so much more experienced than Mikoto.

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And Stiyl is Touma's age (15).........despite his appearance. Kaori is 18. Somehow I don't think age has much to do with it.
in fact age doesn't matter, what matters is that they are magicians, and have been involved with the affairs of magicians all their lives, which means they have a lot of experience in that.

Mikoto is just a civilian middle schooler who's had way less experience than them, and most of the time didn't even know what she was getting involved into

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Mikoto doesn't know about Acqua being super powerful, but even if she did, she wouldn't leave a battered and beaten Touma to go off and fight him alone, as far as she knew. Even if she knew he had help, she wouldn't just leave him in that shape. Just the same as with Touma; if he didn't have Imagine Breaker, would he still try to help people regardless of the danger? Absolutely.
Of course. Except Touma pretty much made her understand that it was HIS fight, not hers

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Irrelevant; priorities are priorities. You don't leave your bags out of sight in an airport for even a few seconds, and you don't leave civilians in harm's way for any longer than you can help; that means getting them out ASAP.
which is precisely what Kuroko was doing

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And to Kuroko, they were not all helpless; putting Touma aside since she knew she couldn't teleport him, Index and Hyouka were the helpless ones. Mikoto was a Level 5 Esper who had just earlier demonstrated, in front of Kuroko, that she can more than handle Sherry.
they were all civilians to be evacuated in the shortest time possible, regardless of whether they could defend themselves or not

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I think Mikoto leaving the man she loves to go and face an opponent alone, while injured, is a forced plot hole. Absolutely. Positively. most definitely. Plot hole, bad writing, etc. Her being emotionally just means all the more that she'd give in to emotion and help him.
i think you have a different idea of Mikoto's character than what she actually is...

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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
It's a plot hole because it's inconsistent with Kuroko being a responsible a member of Judgement, which happens to be the definition of "plot hole." You get the people in most danger out first; it's common sense, no matter what you say. This point I can't concede on.
and you are completely ignoring BOTH the circumstances AND Kuroko's character
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