AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Madoka Magica

Notices

View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-02-21, 02:11   Link #501
Scrooge McDuck
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
The whole QB is not human, therefore not subject to human morality fail to address how QB was able to successfully manipulate and deceive humans into contracting with him. Without a good understanding of humans, how can one know how to manipulate and deceive them?
Ah, but who's to say that Kyubey knowingly manipulate and deceive humans? Can't he simply be following some guidelines? Or, can't he be simply acting based on trial and error?
Scrooge McDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:18   Link #502
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
To be fair, I don't think anyone in this whole world would be happy forever just because a single wish of theirs is granted. (well, unless the wish is to be happy forever)
But _all_ MGs are struck with misery caused by being MGs afterwards.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:21   Link #503
Decagon
This was meaningless
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Not on this site no more.
Age: 27
There is a moral disconnect here between the perpetrator(s) of an action and the victim(s) of the action. Thanks to your guys' new "legal team" defense, I remembered this. The people you argue against most of the time seem to view QB from the perspective of the MGs--the supposed "victims" in this case,--and empathize with those characters through their inner turmoil, surprise revelations, and setbacks.
Spoiler for Sisko quotes:

I'm quite sure Sisko would be seen as evil by these Romulans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Science lists out facts, proposes a theory and then sees if the theory matches up. If other people point out flaws, the scientist is open-minded enough to go, "Hmm, you're right; I'll have to revise my theory."

Considering you haven't done that yet, you might not really want to go at this from a scientific angle, heh.
Those are called models. Theories are first proposed then tested with experiments that gather data to disprove that theory. As this is a work of fiction, the data is the information we take from the source material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Actually, we tend to offer up our own proof. Check Deconstructor's post, and you'll note he asks for the theory to be disproven... not proven. That implies right there that people know the theory isn't proven at all. Hell, most of the mods here agree with Triple_R and I. That might tell you something. ;p
Good job gloating . Theories must be described in a way to allow them to be disproven. There is no point to have others prove a theory one presents--if I say there are aliens behind your back who turn invisible when seen by people or machines, how can anyone disprove that? Therefore, the hypothesis needs to be posited in such a way that it can be disproven. By being unable to disprove something, it is verified. The issue with an ongoing story is what has yet to be revealed, of course.
Spoiler for examples:
After watching episode 7, I believe that Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyoko may think he is evil just for carrying out the rather literal dehumanizing take-your-soul-out-of-your-body soul gem process.

Do you people who defend QB allow the characters to see QB as evil, or do you need them to use some equivalent of evil when describing QB to allow that?

Last edited by Decagon; 2011-02-21 at 02:33.
Decagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:28   Link #504
Scrooge McDuck
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
But _all_ MGs are struck with misery caused by being MGs afterwards.
Well duh? As Kyubey explicitly state in Episode 2, they are to continuously risk their lives fighting monstrous enemies; of course there's plenty of misery there.
Scrooge McDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:33   Link #505
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Well duh? As Kyubey explicitly state in Episode 2, they are to continuously risk their lives fighting monstrous enemies; of course there's plenty of misery there.
More misery is spread around then just fighting witches, there are emotional pains of the wish you made (examples include Sayaka's wish, and Kyoko's wish) and the fact you might fight other magical girls for Grief Seeds, so you don't exactly have a partner and feel lonely (example includes Mami)
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:44   Link #506
Scrooge McDuck
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
More misery is spread around then just fighting witches, there are emotional pains of the wish you made (examples include Sayaka's wish, and Kyoko's wish) and the fact you might fight other magical girls for Grief Seeds, so you don't exactly have a partner and feel lonely (example includes Mami)
My point is, the wishes themselves don't really have a factor towards the girls' misery. Kyouko is an unfortunate case, but any sadness Sayaka and Mami have is more to the fact that they are a magical girl afterwards.

I shall not argue that becoming a magical girl does not suck. It does. But postulating that the miracles are specifically crafted just to make the girls miserable is kinda pushing it.
Scrooge McDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:48   Link #507
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
My point is, the wishes themselves don't really have a factor towards the girls' misery. Kyouko is an unfortunate case, but any sadness Sayaka and Mami have is more to the fact that they are a magical girl afterwards.

I shall not argue that becoming a magical girl does not suck. It does. But postulating that the miracles are specifically crafted just to make the girls miserable is kinda pushing it.
Strange, your post gave me the thought that Kyubey is actually setting up these miseries that the magical girls are facing now just so they can eventually turn into witches in the future and let future-generation magical girls kill them. Don't know why that came up in my mind, probably when Homura strangely said "She was not human" but I think she meant that because she has no human emotions possibly? But I wish to remain neutral towards Kyubey so I'll disclaim this thought.
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 02:50   Link #508
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Well duh? As Kyubey explicitly state in Episode 2, they are to continuously risk their lives fighting monstrous enemies; of course there's plenty of misery there.
*sigh*

We're not talking about the misery from fighting witches themselves. We're talking about the misery that results from those wishes being made. All wishes have been ironically ended up in the WORST CASE possible or close to it. There were no mixed results, but each wish always ended up with their wish backfiring completely on them.

1)Mami wish: wanted to live
Outcome: She lived a life of isolation and loneliness. Having no time for friends, herself, or even a crush due to fighting witches, she confesses to Madoka that her wish to live and consequential duty to becoming a magical girl was something she deeply regrets

2)Kyoko: Wished for people to listen to her father
Outcome: Her "kind and loving" father snaps after learning the truth and proceeds to murder the family and commit suicide himself as well.

3)Sayaka: Wished for Kamijo's hand to be healed.
Outcome: Unexpectedly, despite being Sayaka's childhood friend, and being discharged from the hospital Kamijo did not bother to tell Sayaka about such a joyous occasion and has seem to completely forgot about her, completely engrossed with his violin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
My point is, the wishes themselves don't really have a factor towards the girls' misery. Kyouko is an unfortunate case, but any sadness Sayaka and Mami have is more to the fact that they are a magical girl afterwards.

I shall not argue that becoming a magical girl does not suck. It does. But postulating that the miracles are specifically crafted just to make the girls miserable is kinda pushing it.
........

I really hope to god that you are just pulling our leg with this.
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 03:03   Link #509
Scrooge McDuck
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
*sigh*

We're not talking about the misery from fighting witches themselves. We're talking about the misery that results from those wishes being made. All wishes have been ironically ended up in the WORST CASE possible or close to it. There were no mixed results, but each wish always ended up with their wish backfiring completely on them.

1)Mami wish: wanted to live
Outcome: She lived a life of isolation and loneliness. Having no time for friends, herself, or even a crush due to fighting witches, she confesses to Madoka that her wish to live and consequential duty to becoming a magical girl was something she deeply regrets

2)Kyoko: Wished for people to listen to her father
Outcome: Her "kind and loving" father snaps after learning the truth and proceeds to murder the family and commit suicide himself as well.

3)Sayaka: Wished for Kamijo's hand to be healed.
Outcome: Unexpectedly, despite being Sayaka's childhood friend, and being discharged from the hospital Kamijo did not bother to tell Sayaka about such a joyous occasion and has seem to completely forgot about her, completely engrossed with his violin.
As I said, Kyouko is an unfortunate case. So I'll just focus on Mami and Sayaka.

What if after their wish is granted, they did not become a magical girl.

1. Mami: she survives! And she has time for friends, herself, and a crush!
2. Sayaka: Kamijyo's hand is healed! Now she can properly confess to him without reservation!

See that in case of both of these girls, the direct cause of their misery is being a magical girl rather than some malicious wish-granting. With Mami having no time to socialize properly and Sayaka having reservations due to her "zombie" status.

Also, note that Mami herself said that she doesn't regret her wish. That being a magical girl sucks grand time, but sure still a whole lot better alternative than dying.

Last edited by Scrooge McDuck; 2011-02-21 at 03:16.
Scrooge McDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 03:15   Link #510
Silverwyrm
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Folsom, CA, USA
Age: 28
Mami said being a MG sucks but she never said she regrets it. In fact, she did say it was better than dying and she DOESNT regret it.
Silverwyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 03:30   Link #511
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Reasoning 1: We did not see the witches actually attack them at all. We don't know what would have happened if Mami didn't interrupt.

Well Mami says they'd be dead and considering the minions were yelling in german "those are unknown flowers,lets cut them off" while holding scisors it doesn't seem they cared if they were MG or not



Quote:
Reasoning 1: The witch may not want to kill Madoka but merely trying to display her guilt back to her like a mirror, for what purpose we do not know. If a witch can kill Mami by biting her head off with such ease, there is no reason Madoka would survived so long if this witch had the intention of killing her.
I like this but maybe she's just enjoying mentaly torturing Madoka before she finishes her off.

But really it seems to me all witches have their personalities so we can't judge all of them based on one.




Quote:
The whole QB is not human, therefore not subject to human morality fail to address how QB was able to successfully manipulate and deceive humans into contracting with him. Without a good understanding of humans, how can one know how to manipulate and deceive them?
The QB defense team would tell you he hasn't been manipulative, I completely disagree but thought I'd point it out.

Quote:
. If QB is a shady salesman, then dealing with literately lives and souls of young girls is worse then selling drugs.
But for the salesman metaphor to work he needs to profit from the situation somehow,what's in it for him;he doesn't have possession of the girls' souls,so that's not it,he does "eat" grief seeds though,that's one possibility people have come up with but I'm not fully certain.

In the end (and what this episode showed) is that making a contract with QB is likely a bad idea,especially if you make a selfless wish,wether that makes him evil or not is not really what I care about anymore.
__________________
totoum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 03:31   Link #512
Squarecrow
Supreme Ruler of Crowatia
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
But _all_ MGs are struck with misery caused by being MGs afterwards.
And most magical girls are the source of their own misery.

Mami says MGs can't date or have friends or do this or that but... she has enough time to go to school. Homura has the time to stalk Madoka/Sayaka, Kyoko has the time to play DDR. Mami was miserable because she didn't try. Sayaka is miserable because she doesn't think of herself as human which is all in her head (she still functions exactly the same as long as her gem is with her). Kyoko, well, she's lonely but I wouldn't say miserable. Homura doesn't seem miserable but time will tell what's really going on with her.
Squarecrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 03:56   Link #513
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Crow View Post
And most magical girls are the source of their own misery.

Mami says MGs can't date or have friends or do this or that but... she has enough time to go to school. Homura has the time to stalk Madoka/Sayaka, Kyoko has the time to play DDR. Mami was miserable because she didn't try. Sayaka is miserable because she doesn't think of herself as human which is all in her head (she still functions exactly the same as long as her gem is with her). Kyoko, well, she's lonely but I wouldn't say miserable. Homura doesn't seem miserable but time will tell what's really going on with her.
I agree. I guess there is time for one more post before bed...
For me, it is not about how sad the Puella Magi is after they have been contracted, but how sad she is when Kyubey does the contract.

Every girl Kyubey has turned into a Puella Magi was miserable at the time of their contraction. Kyoko (father killed whole family, including himself), Sayaka (love interest just about gave up on life), Mami (car crash)... well, we don't know too much about Homura.

Originally, I went farther than that and said that all contracted girls were miserable before Kyubey approached them. That would imply that Kyubey has some ability to sense sadness, and that Kyubey is evil for manipulating emotionally scarred girls into becoming his mindless zombies.

That may be a step too far, but it is certainly what I think. The only good exceptions, as pointed out by Kyubey defense team, are Sayaka and Madoka. Sayaka wasn't that miserable when Kyubey met them.

However, I have a response to that too. I think Kyubey was primarily interested in Madoka, and merely offered Sayaka the contract to influence Madoka's decision. Madoka is an exception because she has the potential to become an extremely powerful Puella Magi (as noted by Kyubey).

Kyubey might have thought that by turning Sayaka, Madoka would follow. More evidence of this is seen in episode 5 when Kyubey suggests Madoka use her wish to stop Sayaka from fighting. And Sayaka turned out to be rather miserable anyway, come episode 4. Everything that has transpired fits... so far.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 04:10   Link #514
Elestia
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
As I said, Kyouko is an unfortunate case. So I'll just focus on Mami and Sayaka.

What if after their wish is granted, they did not become a magical girl.

1. Mami: she survives! And she has time for friends, herself, and a crush!
2. Sayaka: Kamijyo's hand is healed! Now she can properly confess to him without reservation!

See that in case of both of these girls, the direct cause of their misery is being a magical girl rather than some malicious wish-granting. With Mami having no time to socialize properly and Sayaka having reservations due to her "zombie" status.
Mami could not have predicted that she would have been a magical girl when she made the wish, being a life and death situation. Consider it from her perspective. She's going to die in a few minutes, she needs help and wants to live. She gets her wish! She gets to live! Oh happy days! But wait, oh shucks. Her wish backfires because suddenly her life isn't her own anymore because, guess what, you have to fight witches now. It was just plain coincidence that her wish directly corresponded to her own personal will to live, but being tied down by being a magical girl.

As for Sayaka..... really? You really believe in 100% of your being that Sayaka's main grief stems from the fact that she is a Magical girl? Just... really? If Kamijo didn't exist and she became a MG do you think she was still would be as miserable as she is now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Also, note that Mami herself said that she doesn't regret her wish. That being a magical girl sucks grand time, but sure still a whole lot better alternative that dying.
Please I beg of you. Just. Please. Don't insert your own voice to what a Mami plainly says. You are not Mami, you do not have a say to what she really meant or feels, when, and I quote again, she said at timestamp 15:40-16:30 of episode 3 "there's nothing good being a MG".

I take more faith in her true feelings when she confessed to Madoka than anything she said before that point as the biggest indication that she DID have regrets in becoming a magical girl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
Mami said being a MG sucks but she never said she regrets it. In fact, she did say it was better than dying and she DOESNT regret it.
Right cause she was absolutely fine with being a magical girl, because her wish turned out fine and dandy. You know, except suffering from a deep sense of isolation from everyone and everything, even from herself. But you're right, just because being forced into a contract with no idea what contents it contained, as opposed to dying as the slightly better alternative. Instead, now living a life wherein contemplating the idea that maybe DIEING WASN'T SO BAD. So yeah, didn't regret becoming a magical girl, no sirree. No such thing as a fate worse than death, not in the vocabulary.

And the whole confession in the end, it was to point out that being magical girl was not something to regret. But just saying made her feel all the much better, no oblique hidden meaning there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Crow View Post
Mami says MGs can't date or have friends or do this or that but... she has enough time to go to school. Homura has the time to stalk Madoka/Sayaka, Kyoko has the time to play DDR. Mami was miserable because she didn't try. Sayaka is miserable because she doesn't think of herself as human which is all in her head (she still functions exactly the same as long as her gem is with her). Kyoko, well, she's lonely but I wouldn't say miserable. Homura doesn't seem miserable but time will tell what's really going on with her.
Oh of course, I'm sure you made a lot of friends just by attending school only. Who needs to spend time outside of school to hang out with your friends, or have someone to talk to about your harrowing witch hunts, which would make for a great ice breaker for those awkward moments. No, all the time you need to make friends is the time allotted to you in those brief hours between breaks, lunch, and maybe a bit of time afterschool. It's not like relationships are built over time.

What is with the people who blame the girls so much and QB so little, really makes me wonder why they are fixated on human faults we are suppose to be all prone to and yet be the harshest on them. It's like we don't have the ability to empathize or feel sympathy for them as fallible characters and instead use our own higher moral ground to say that it is there own fault for the situation they are in.

Rather does no one sees that their lives became much worse, after they made a contract?
Elestia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 04:39   Link #515
Silverwyrm
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Folsom, CA, USA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post


Right cause she was absolutely fine with being a magical girl, because her wish turned out fine and dandy. You know, except suffering from a deep sense of isolation from everyone and everything, even from herself. But you're right, just because being forced into a contract with no idea what contents it contained, as opposed to dying as the slightly better alternative. Instead, now living a life wherein contemplating the idea that maybe DIEING WASN'T SO BAD. So yeah, didn't regret becoming a magical girl, no sirree. No such thing as a fate worse than death, not in the vocabulary.

And the whole confession in the end, it was to point out that being magical girl was not something to regret. But just saying made her feel all the much better, no oblique hidden meaning there.

Where did she say she was contemplating dying? Where did she say it was worse than death? She stated all the ways it sucked, but said neither of those.

episode 3, starting at 4:39 and ending at 4:57
Quote:
Mami: It's not Like I regret it.
Mami: I think my current way of life is much better than having died back there.
Mami: Biut you know, its better for a girl to carefully consider what they want if they have the opportunity to do so.
Mami: Especially since I didn't have the opportunity to do so you know?
Not seeing her regretting it or contemplating dying, she does wish she had a chance to think about it, but prefers her current life style to having died.
Silverwyrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 04:42   Link #516
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Look. There is not a single MG that I know about who found non-temporary happiness by having her wish granted. How many times are you trying to deny this simple fact?
I haven't denied that at all. As it pertains to the wishes, all I've pointed out is that some happiness came from the wishes.

As Scrooge McDuck said, who in their right mind would expect eternal happiness to come from any wish that wasn't specifically for eternal happiness?


Quote:

Great job ignoring the fact that she herself stated that she's sitting in her apartment crying and lonely, and that there's nothing good being a MG.
I'm not ignoring that at all. All I'm doing is presenting the other side of the story, by showing how Mami did have moments of considerable happiness after she became a magical girl. Moments of considerable happiness that do never occur if not for her wish.

I don't think that anybody here is ignoring or denying that Mami expressed considerable dissatisfaction with the magical girl role, and with her lonely life after she became a magical girl, but before she met Madoka and Sayaka.

But even so, you've never heard an exasperated person say "There's nothing good about my job" or "There's nothing good about my life" during a bad day? Are people not allowed to exaggerate, use hyperbole, or vent?

Not saying that's what Mami is doing here, but it is a possibility. Kyoko certainly doesn't seem to think that there's nothing good to being a MG, does she?


Quote:
That's a quote.
Sure. And these are Mami quotes too:

"And we can all have a party to celebrate you and me teaming up as magical girls!" - Mami to Madoka, emphasis mine

"It's like my body is floating... This is the first time I've been this happy in a fight!"

"I'm not afraid anymore!"

"Because I'm not alone!"

What was making Mami unhappy wasn't that she was a magical girl, per se. What was making her unhappy was that she was lonely, period. But being a magical girl didn't mean she had to stay alone.

Honestly, some of the magical girls have made false assumptions about their own roles. Mami argued that a magical girl has no time for friends or dating boys. But then Sayaka clearly has time to go to school still, and still hang out with Madoka a lot. If Sayaka still has time for that (when I don't think that Mami was even going to school), then Mami had time for friends and dates.


Quote:

Some big happiness that is. We're not talking some fleeting temporary high here. Mami was UNHAPPY.
Yes, because she was lonely. Period. Notice how happy she becomes just when she has a new friend, even with her still being a magical girl.


Quote:
That's why she so wished for Madoka to join her.
And perhaps Madoka should have...

If Madoka had become a magical girl prior to Mami's final fight, maybe the two of them together would have overcome the witch, Mami would still be alive, and Mami would have gone to be very happy in a magical girl partnership with Madoka.

Maybe Madoka was wrong for not becoming a magical girl sooner...

It's a defensible argument.


Quote:
Irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant if Kamijo's happiness was one of the goal's of Sayaka wish, and while her wish had a selfish element to it, I don't believe for a second that Sayaka wasn't happy for Kamijo being more happy for his own sake. Kamijo is not an "outsider" to Sayaka.


Quote:
AND. LOOK. AT. HER. NOW!!!
Who's to say that the way she is now is a permanent state? They even had an interview with Homura's seiyu, IIRC, where it was stated that Sayaka will have a glimmer of hope right to the end.

Sayaka might yet recover from this. We'll just have to wait and see.


Quote:

So tell me: In this example, what's more important? A fleeting feeling of happiness due to ignorance,
It's not "ignorance" at all. Her happiness was due to a real situation right in front of her eyes. That situation was the boy that she loved fully recovered, and playing music again.

Quote:
or the lifelong feeling of despair later?
Who's saying that it's going to be "lifelong"? Does Kyoko look to be in constant despair to you?

The fact that you feel you need to add in highly questionable qualifiers to your rhetorical questions, in order for them to have the effect that you want them to have, says a lot about how your position is not as strong as you think it is.


Quote:

Before Sayaka was involved in this whole MG mess, she was a bright, cheery girl.
I see. I guess Deconstructor's earlier core argument goes entirely out the window then.


Quote:
Now she's an emotional wreck loathing what she's become without being told, on her way to self-destruction.
We will see if she self-destructs or not. That has not happened yet.


Quote:
You can babble about "personal responsibility" or "she didn't ask" all you want, but in the end, it's the simple fact that she made a decision without knowing what she'd be getting into (she said so herself), and the MG business is about to kill her. And strangely, this is exactly what Homura warned Madoka of in ep1. She said she has seen countless MGs perish the same way, and I strongly doubt that she's been lying.
I don't think she's lying there either. But then, how many innocent people die and/or endure great suffering from witches and familiars if they're not stopped by somebody? That's a part of this equation that you've rarely, if ever, grappled with.

Practically all you do is go on and on and on about how bad this is for the magical girls, without considering the harm that they prevent by being magical girls.


Quote:
This is obviously a very typical outcome, but this is NOT what QB tells them when he tries to contract.
To me, it seems obvious that if you're going to engage in fighting against powerful supernatural foes, that you may die doing that.

Keep in mind that Kyoko doesn't seem to resent Kyubey for that aspect of the magical girl role at all. She simply became temporarily upset with him over the soul removed and placed in a gem aspect, something that she quickly came to comfortable terms with.


Quote:
Until I see clear evidence to the contrary, I consider the MG business to be a racket to exploit unsuspecting kids created and maintained with malicious intent. The "circumstantial evidence" is way too compelling to ignore for me.
I don't think that it's compelling at all. But to each their own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
To be fair, I don't think anyone in this whole world would be happy forever just because a single wish of theirs is granted. (well, unless the wish is to be happy forever)
Well said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Let me use the line of argument consistently being used by QB Defender camp.
Your analogy here is very flawed because the magical girls are on record as to clearly stating the danger and threat level posed by witches, to both human civilians, and magical girls.

For your analogy here to be valid, it would be necessary for experienced magical girls to talk about how evil or predatory Kyubey is. And even Homura, of all people, didn't say that.

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that Homura's stated take on Kyubey doesn't seem to have shifted the views of the "Kyubey is evil" camp at all. If there's anybody who would want Madoka to perceive Kyubey as rotten and evil, it would be Homura. And yet, her stated take on Kyubey is not terribly dissimilar at all from the defense that Kaijo, I, and some others have made of him.


Quote:

Just like no matter how many hints, trends and events demonstrate how QB manipulates, deceives and appears to have good grasp of human psychology by taking full advantage of human weaknesses from MG candidates, we have people that believe his words as honest and true.
Unless I missed something, nothing he's said so far has been shown to be incorrect. So why should we think that what he's stated is incorrect? Keep in mind that it's not hard to imagine how giving false information could be very helpful to Kyubey in contracting magical girls. Yet that appears to be a line that he won't cross.

There is a difference between holding back pieces of information, and giving out false information. Both are deceptive, but the latter goes a bit father than the former.


Quote:
The whole QB is not human, therefore not subject to human morality fail to address how QB was able to successfully manipulate and deceive humans into contracting with him. Without a good understanding of humans, how can one know how to manipulate and deceive them? At best one can say QB does not agree with or care about human morality but understand the concept enough to employ it against humans to do his job.
Kyubey has not made moral appeals. He has not said "Come join me in a glorious crusade to kill all the witches that are hurting humanity!"

Just because Kyubey knows what humans like (their wishes coming real!) and dislike (their soul being put into a gem) doesn't mean that he understands human morality.

Heck, I can understand what another human being likes by simply observing what makes him or her happy, and yet I still might not fully grasp his or her personal moral code in some cases.


Quote:

People are ready to make any excuse or arguments to defend their position on QB and yet on witches they make no such attempts because defending witches with the same type of reasoning may invalidate their defense of QB.
No, we make no such attempts in defending witches because we have the words of magical girls (such as Mami, and even the arguments between Kyoko and Sayaka to some extent) to go by there. We have no such words to go by in declaring Kyubey evil. Indeed, the only magical girl to talk about him at all basically disagrees with you.


Quote:
They readily take screen evidence and declare witches are evil and is a threat to humanity and ignore similar evidence where QB is concerned.
It's not just "screen evidence". It's also what the magical girls themselves have said about the witches.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
There is a moral disconnect here between the perpetrator(s) of an action and the victim(s) of the action. Thanks to your guys' new "legal team" defense, I remembered this. The people you argue against most of the time seem to view QB from the perspective of the MGs--the supposed "victims" in this case,--and empathize with those characters through their inner turmoil, surprise revelations, and setbacks.
Spoiler for Sisko quotes:

I'm quite sure Sisko would be seen as evil by these Romulans.
Oh, sure, that's all fine. I wouldn't blame the surviving family members of those Romulans for perceiving Sisko as evil. People who have endured lost due to the actions of another person, even if those actions were not guided by evil intent, may still view that person as evil. I'm not disputing that.

But I don't see why the perception of the victims of an action is the only one that should count. In the case of Sisko's actions, there were countless beneficiaries to them as well, which is why I (as an outside viewer, and not a Romulan directly negatively affected by Sisko) would not call Sisko "evil". Countless Federation and Klingon lives were likely saved by Sisko's actions, just like Kyubey's actions have saved some human lives by there being magical girls to combat the dangerous witches.

Now, if Kyubey is playing both sides (i.e. intentionally creates both magical girls and witches), then he obviously gets no credit for saving lives that he endangered in the first place. I'm not saying otherwise. But until we have evidence of that (which we currently don't have at all, really), that's not something that can legitimately be factored into a discussion on him, imo.

From what we know right now, Kyubey's actions have both victims (just as Sisko's did), but also results in saved lives (just as Sisko's did).


Quote:
After watching episode 7, I believe that Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyoko may think he is evil just for carrying out the rather literal dehumanizing take-your-soul-out-of-your-body soul gem process.
I don't see that as particularly dehumanizing given that Sayaka's body and personality seem as human as ever, but Ok.

I doubt that Madoka views him as evil after what Homura said to her.

I doubt that Kyoko views him as evil given how easily she got over the soul gem revelation.

Sayaka perhaps does view him as evil, though. That I could easily see.


Quote:
Do you people who defend QB allow the characters to see QB as evil, or do you need them to use some equivalent of evil when describing QB to allow that?
I would have no problem whatsoever with one or more of the magical girls perceiving Kyubey as evil. But we here on this thread are outside the narrative, perceiving it from an omniscient third person perspective. I think it does a disservice to this excellent anime, and to our viewing experience, for us to not consider the perspectives of all the characters when making character assessments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
As I said, Kyouko is an unfortunate case. So I'll just focus on Mami and Sayaka.

What if after their wish is granted, they did not become a magical girl.

1. Mami: she survives! And she has time for friends, herself, and a crush!
2. Sayaka: Kamijyo's hand is healed! Now she can properly confess to him without reservation!

See that in case of both of these girls, the direct cause of their misery is being a magical girl rather than some malicious wish-granting. With Mami having no time to socialize properly and Sayaka having reservations due to her "zombie" status.

Also, note that Mami herself said that she doesn't regret her wish. That being a magical girl sucks grand time, but sure still a whole lot better alternative that dying.
That's an interesting point. Perhaps happiness is kept in balance in this world due to the happiness brought about by the wishes canceling out with the sadness brought about by having to be a magical girl. So, in a sense, Sayaka traded her own long-term happiness for Kamijo's, hence overall balanced is maintained. Perhaps this is why it's been argued in the anime that it's bad to make a wish for anybody but yourself. Since you pay for the wish with your own sadness, it's a serious net loss for you if you don't at least get some personal happiness from your wish.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-02-21 at 05:03.
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 04:42   Link #517
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Crow View Post
And most magical girls are the source of their own misery.
No. The SOURCE of the girls' misery is what the MG system is doing to them. Some girls are able to cope better (Kyoko/Homura), some worse (Mami and particularly Sayaka). Of course you can argue that they agreed to become MGs, so it's their own responsibility. But to that I can only point out that so far, no MG seems to have known the full picture when she committed. And some had no choice in the first place.

If all girls would have really known and understood what they were getting into, THEN I'd able to accept this reasoning. But that's quite obviously not how things were. For none of them.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 04:48   Link #518
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
"there's nothing good being a MG".

And you're interpeting that as saying she has regrets but that's not what she said.

To me you're already likely to have your life ruined by becoming a MG , making the kind of wish Sayaka and Kyoko made just adds insult to injury.
__________________
totoum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 05:08   Link #519
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
The QB defense team would tell you he hasn't been manipulative,
Kaijo may have objected to that, but I haven't. IIRC, I said that Kyubey is manipulative, but only on the level of a shady door-to-door salesman.

I don't mind people viewing Kyubey as a bit deceptive and/or a bit manipulative. I just think it's getting blown out of proportion.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-02-21, 05:15   Link #520
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I haven't denied that at all. As it pertains to the wishes, all I've pointed out is that some happiness came from the wishes.

As Scrooge McDuck said, who in their right mind would expect eternal happiness to come from any wish that wasn't specifically for eternal happiness?


Okay, then let me ask this way round: Do you think that Sayaka would have formed a contract if she had known that things would turn out like this? Do you think that Kyoko would have formed a contract if she had known that things would turn out like this? Or would both of them more likely think that their wish had backfired?

Quote:
But even so, you've never heard an exasperated person say "There's nothing good about my job" or "There's nothing good about my life" during a bad day? Are people not allowed to exaggerate, use hyperbole, or vent?
But this was no hyperbole. In this scene Mami was seriously warning Madoka that becoming a MG would suck donkey balls. And she was moved to tears that Madoka was willing to pick up this burden to lighten Mami's load and team up with her. Do you think that Mami had recommended to Madoka to become a MG if it hadn't been to gain a friend?

Quote:
Not saying that's what Mami is doing here, but it is a possibility. Kyoko certainly doesn't seem to think that there's nothing good to being a MG, does she?
You think so? Even if we forget the minor fact that she lost her family, do you feel that Kyoko is happy? For real? Kyoko copes better than Sayaka, but she's not happy.

Quote:
Sure. And these are Mami quotes too:

"And we can all have a party to celebrate you and me teaming up as magical girls!" - Mami to Madoka, emphasis mine
See above. She was happy to find someone who'd team up with her regardless of the downsides. Someone who still didn't know of the horrors of MG-dom back then.

Quote:
"It's like my body is floating... This is the first time I've been this happy in a fight!"

"I'm not afraid anymore!"

"Because I'm not alone!"
*CHOMP* *NOM NOM NOM*

Yet another unfortunate coincidence.

Quote:
What was making Mami unhappy wasn't that she was a magical girl, per se. What was making her unhappy was that she was lonely, period. But being a magical girl didn't mean she had to stay alone.
Is this so? To use a quote you love so much: We don't know that. We know from Homura that according to her, losing everyone you love is a direct result of becoming a MG, she said she's seen it happen all too many times. We don't know all factors involved here yet. For example, it could very well be that being close to people as a MG means that they could be involved and harmed by attacking witches. So you opt to disregard Homura's warning?

You're making it sound like being a MG is just like picking up a side job like delivering newspapers, and life goes on normally otherwise. I don't think this is accurate.

Quote:
Honestly, some of the magical girls have made false assumptions about their own roles.
Yupyup, MGs. Listen to the advice of the QB defense team

Quote:
Yes, because she was lonely. Period. Notice how happy she becomes just when she has a new friend, even with her still being a magical girl.
...and immediately she died. Always these coincidences.

Quote:
Who's to say that the way she is now is a permanent state? They even had an interview with Homura's seiyu, IIRC, where it was stated that Sayaka will have a glimmer of hope right to the end. Sayaka might yet recover from this. We'll just have to wait and see.
If she recovers in some way, it will be due to outside help. The MG meatgrinder in conjunction with the "unfortunate coincidences" is currently killing her.

Quote:
Is she crying blood, or was she pierced near her eyes by the enemy witch?
Is there ANY limit to what you're trying to defend? ^_^;

Quote:
It's not "ignorance" at all. Her happiness was due to a real situation right in front of her eyes. That situation was the boy that she loved fully recovered, and playing music again.
But this happiness has immediately been superseded by the truth - once she learned about it. Sayaka was ripped off - either by a "unfortunate coincidence", or something more sinister could be in effect here. Keep in mind what was said about "equal exchange" of happiness and grief.

So, I'll agree with Homura for the time being: Don't become a MG. You'll lose everyone dear to you and be screwed over.

Quote:
Who's saying that it's going to be "lifelong"? Does Kyoko look to be in constant despair to you?
Yes. That she's unhappy becomes obvious by the strong outbursts of anger she shows when she talks to Sayaka. She's better at controlling it, but she's got serious issues.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.