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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-21, 05:17   Link #521
MeoTwister5
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I'll go out on a limb and assume that a lot of people are getting headaches reading this thread so, for convenience, I'll summarize the issues being discussed in a friendlier and more civil manner. I'll also bring it up later again when we get more episodes.

1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others? This might have a gray area, but in the end is a yes or no question, and as to why one thinks that way. I am myself undecided.

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards. Again the possibility of a gray area, and maybe reconciling the two by having one justify the other may exist depending on your viewpoint. I lean towards a "no" answer, though not yet fully convinced.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame. At least this one has a gray area to choose from, of which I am inclined to put myself in.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power? I am, actually, more inclined to believe the latter, as I have yet to see a direct "bad" to result from choice a. That could easily change though.

So I'm still neutral. Or maybe I could just blame both sides (and thus earn the ire of Triple, Kaijo and Mentar ). Either way it would be best to at least try and distill the current debate in this thread into something simpler for all of us to understand, even those not actively participating.
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Old 2011-02-21, 05:26   Link #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and assume that a lot of people are getting headaches reading this thread so, for convenience, I'll summarize the issues being discussed in a friendlier and more civil manner. I'll also bring it up later again when we get more episodes.

1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others? This might have a gray area, but in the end is a yes or no question, and as to why one thinks that way. I am myself undecided.

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards. Again the possibility of a gray area, and maybe reconciling the two by having one justify the other may exist depending on your viewpoint. I lean towards a "no" answer, though not yet fully convinced.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame. At least this one has a gray area to choose from, of which I am inclined to put myself in.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power? I am, actually, more inclined to believe the latter, as I have yet to see a direct "bad" to result from choice a. That could easily change though.

So I'm still neutral. Or maybe I could just blame both sides (and thus earn the ire of Triple, Kaijo and Mentar ). Either way it would be best to at least try and distill the current debate in this thread into something simpler for all of us to understand, even those not actively participating.
You haven't raised my ire there. Truthfully, I'm not that far from you.

My own answers:

1. I myself am undecided.

2. I lean towards a "yes" answer, though I'm not yet fully convinced. I lean towards "yes" because my thinking is that when lives are at stake, it's probably worth it to use somewhat shady methods to save them. This is why I'm inclined to defend Ben Sisko more than I am to condemn him.

3. C

4. B


So, our only disagreement is on 2. On 3 out of 4 I agree with you.


Edit: I'll admit that posts are getting awfully long in this thread, and will accept my share of the blame for that. To anybody who may be wondering why I didn't respond to one of their posts to me, it's because of the sheer numbers of posts out there now addressed to Kaijo and/or myself, which when combined with Anime Suki rules, can make it very hard to get to each and every one of them. Due to Anime Suki rules (one poster can't have two consecutive posts in a thread), I can't respond to each one in a big string of separate short posts, so it's one big blob of responses in one long post, unfortunately. Sometimes, a particular line of discussion has to be dropped in order to fit the rest into one post.
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Old 2011-02-21, 05:52   Link #523
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Spoiler for post responding to:


OOh can i join? ^^

1. also undecided > also it's not just a particular girl's life at stake but the people around them. think kyoko's father, family & not to mention the countless people brainwashed to listen to his probably boring sermons every week. but seriously we should think about every person affected by the wish, the bigger the wish the greater the effect. I shudder of what the consequences would be for a "World Peace" wish. [ read Ursula K. Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven novel, great classic]
Spoiler for for Triple_R:


2. I lean towards"no" i never believed in "ends justifying the means", and i never believe in "no other way"
- oh no not I! rage against the dying of the light!

3. C as stated in my previous post

4. leaning towards A

Last edited by garbage; 2011-02-21 at 06:28.
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Old 2011-02-21, 06:00   Link #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Oh, sure, that's all fine. I wouldn't blame the surviving family members of those Romulans for perceiving Sisko as evil. People who have endured lost due to the actions of another person, even if those actions were not guided by evil intent, may still view that person as evil. I'm not disputing that.

But I don't see why the perception of the victims of an action is the only one that should count. In the case of Sisko's actions, there were countless beneficiaries to them as well, which is why I (as an outside viewer, and not a Romulan directly negatively affected by Sisko) would not call Sisko "evil". Countless Federation and Klingon lives were likely saved by Sisko's actions, just like Kyubey's actions have saved some human lives by there being magical girls to combat the dangerous witches.
I think by being so concerned with defending QB as not being "evil" you tend to pass over the weight of his actions on Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyoko who have been portrayed as victims to such a simple omission as what a soul gem is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't see that as particularly dehumanizing given that Sayaka's body and personality seem as human as ever, but Ok.

/snip

I would have no problem whatsoever with one or more of the magical girls perceiving Kyubey as evil. But we here on this thread are outside the narrative, perceiving it from an omniscient third person perspective. I think it does a disservice to this excellent anime, and to our viewing experience, for us to not consider the perspectives of all the characters when making character assessments.
I highlighted what I don't agree with. This position should not keep us from evaluating the situation from a character's perspective. Isn't that what your defense team does when you defend QB by taking his possible position and speculating on his greater good motivations or speculating on his hardened by bloodshed personality? I think it should be apparent from their reactions in episode 6 and 7 that the girls are quite disturbed by that one revelation, especially Sayaka as this has become a major contributor to her mental breakdown. I think it's a disservice for your fellows to not ask yourself why these girls reacted in such a way to something you seem to dismiss and your cohorts see as an advantage. You said yourself it is a disservice to not consider the perspectives of all the characters, so 3/5 main characters being disturbed by the soul gem revelations isn't that light is it?

I'll elaborate since I'm sure someone would end up asking me to, but feel free to look up her dialog.

Sayaka does not see herself as human anymore--she quite flatly states that she's now some thing that no longer possesses the qualifications to pursue a romantic relationship with Kyosuke. Ever since she asked Mami about making a wish for others, and through her continuing visits to Kyosuke after making her wish, we know that she is interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with him. Her current state of being essentially means she squandered her wish which, according to some, is supposed to be due compensation for constantly risking her life.
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Old 2011-02-21, 06:22   Link #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
I think by being so concerned with defending QB as not being "evil" you tend to pass over the weight of his actions on Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyoko who have been portrayed as victims to such a simple omission as what a soul gem is.
Well, I think that you greatly overestimate the weight of those actions, because you're putting more emphasis on subjective and far from infallible character reactions than on the core facts of the matter.

Fact: The appearance and shape of Sayaka's body is completely unchanged. At least so far.

Fact: Sayaka's capacity for human emotion and feeling is completely unchanged.

Fact: Sayaka is still able to hug other people and cry, as demonstrated by this episode.

Fact: Sayaka still thinks as a human does. So does Kyoko. So did Mami. Only Homura seems a bit off here.

Fact: Sayaka is still able to go through her day-to-day life as though nothing has changed, with the only exception being the addition of her magical girl activities, of course. This is seen by how Sayaka attends school this episode, and the school day goes by as normal for her and her classmates (aside from the commotion that Kamijo's return caused, of course).

So how exactly has Sayaka been dehumanized in any relevant way? Fact is, she hasn't been. Her body may have been made sturdier and/or slower than what it was before, but that doesn't dehumanize her. I mean, to say that would be like saying that someone who takes steroids dehumanizes himself or herself by doing so.


Quote:
I highlighted what I don't agree with. This position should not keep us from evaluating the situation from a character's perspective.
Then you're not disagreeing with me, but rather agreeing with me. All I'm saying is you have to consider every character's perspective, not just "the victims".

So of course we should consider the situation from Sayaka's perspective. But we should also consider it from Kamijo's perspective, and we should also consider it from Hitomi's perspective (Hitomi being someone who would probably be dead right now if not for Sayaka's choice to become a magical girl), and we should also consider it from Homura's perspective (Homura being someone who said that Kyubey does not consider his own actions to be cruel, which if accurate obviously rules out evil intent on Kyubey's part), etc..., etc...


Quote:
I think it should be apparent from their reactions in episode 6 and 7 that the girls are quite disturbed by that one revelation,
Sayaka and Madoka are, but Kyoko seems to already be over it, and not care about it anymore. So why aren't you considering Kyoko's perspective as much as you are Sayaka's? Why aren't you saying "Well, maybe Sayaka is overreacting, given how well Kyoko is coping with it"?

I'm not going to consider Sayaka's perspective the only one worth considering here. That would be incredibly narrow-minded, in my view.


Quote:
I think it's a disservice for your fellows to not ask yourself why these girls reacted in such a way to something you seem to dismiss and your cohorts see as an advantage. You said yourself it is a disservice to not consider the perspectives of all the characters, so 3/5 main characters being disturbed by the soul gem revelations isn't that light is it?
Wait, who are the three characters?

I only see 2 being disturbed for any significant length of time. Those two being Madoka and Sayaka.

Quote:
I'll elaborate since I'm sure someone would end up asking me to, but feel free to look up her dialog.

Sayaka does not see herself as human anymore--she quite flatly states that she's now some thing that no longer possesses the qualifications to pursue a romantic relationship with Kyosuke. Ever since she asked Mami about making a wish for others, and through her continuing visits to Kyosuke after making her wish, we know that she is interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with him. Her current state of being essentially means she squandered her wish which, according to some, is supposed to be due compensation for constantly risking her life.
That's just what Sayaka thinks. Just like Mami thought she never had time for friends, which seems extremely dubious to me given how Sayaka has time for school.
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Old 2011-02-21, 06:55   Link #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, I think that you greatly overestimate the weight of those actions, because you're putting more emphasis on subjective and far from infallible character reactions than on the core facts of the matter.

Fact: The appearance and shape of Sayaka's body is completely unchanged. At least so far.

Fact: Sayaka's capacity for human emotion and feeling is completely unchanged.

Fact: Sayaka is still able to hug other people and cry, as demonstrated by this episode.

Fact: Sayaka still thinks as a human does. So does Kyoko. So did Mami. Only Homura seems a bit off here.

Fact: Sayaka is still able to go through her day-to-day life as though nothing has changed, with the only exception being the addition of her magical girl activities, of course. This is seen by how Sayaka attends school this episode, and the school day goes by as normal for her and her classmates (aside from the commotion that Kamijo's return caused, of course).

So how exactly has Sayaka been dehumanized in any relevant way? Fact is, she hasn't been. Her body may have been made sturdier and/or slower than what it was before, but that doesn't dehumanize her. I mean, to say that would be like saying that someone who takes steroids dehumanizes himself or herself by doing so.
So you consider her view of her own self-worth to be too subjective to consider? Being able to hug and kiss people? If you finish that quote you can see she means that figuratively. Since you want to state her emotional range and interpret her personal thoughts, a subjective assessment I'm sure you'd agree, as a fact:
Fact!:She spent a whole day depressed in bed about this!
Fact!:She considers her current state of being as dead!
Fact!:She cut her pain off from her body when Elsa Marie was tearing into her body!

What do drugs even have to do with this? Her soul exists in a container and her body is just a doll she manipulates. What is not dehumanizing about not being human? If she doesn't consider herself to be human, why should your "facts" matter?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Then you're not disagreeing with me, but rather agreeing with me. All I'm saying is you have to consider every character's perspective, not just "the victims".

So of course we should consider the situation from Sayaka's perspective. But we should also consider it from Kamijo's perspective, and we should also consider it from Hitomi's perspective (Hitomi being someone who would probably be dead right now if not for Sayaka's choice to become a magical girl), and we should also consider it from Homura's perspective (Homura being someone who said that Kyubey does not consider his own actions to be cruel, which if accurate obviously rules out evil intent on Kyubey's part), etc..., etc...
I was elaborating on Sayaka's breakdown which you rather unconveniently cut up and replied to in several different quotes. Why would you want me to evaluate one character's train of thought through the perspective of every character?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sayaka and Madoka are, but Kyoko seems to already be over it, and not care about it anymore. So why aren't you considering Kyoko's perspective as much as you are Sayaka's? Why aren't you saying "Well, maybe Sayaka is overreacting, given how well Kyoko is coping with it"?

I'm not going to consider Sayaka's perspective the only one worth considering here. That would be incredibly narrow-minded, in my view.

Wait, who are the three characters?

I only see 2 being disturbed for any significant length of time. Those two being Madoka and Sayaka.

That's just what Sayaka thinks. Just like Mami thought she never had time for friends, which seems extremely dubious to me given how Sayaka has time for school.
Madoka, Sayaka, and Kyoko. Your "significant length of time" is your own subjective opinion. It was disturbing enough to Kyoko to make her treat Sayaka kindly and even offer her food instead of KILLING her, which she was still trying to do the night before.

And yes, what you quoted from me is just what Sayaka thinks. I said I was going by Sayaka's perspective to make a case for why she would think Kyubey would be evil.
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Old 2011-02-21, 08:46   Link #527
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phew! you guys are pretty enthusiastic about all of these. I guess you all need some rest for it. XDD

BTW, just dropping by to say, i can't wait for ep 08!! XDD
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Old 2011-02-21, 10:22   Link #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Mami could not have predicted that she would have been a magical girl when she made the wish, being a life and death situation. Consider it from her perspective. She's going to die in a few minutes, she needs help and wants to live. She gets her wish! She gets to live! Oh happy days! But wait, oh shucks. Her wish backfires because suddenly her life isn't her own anymore because, guess what, you have to fight witches now. It was just plain coincidence that her wish directly corresponded to her own personal will to live, but being tied down by being a magical girl.

As for Sayaka..... really? You really believe in 100% of your being that Sayaka's main grief stems from the fact that she is a Magical girl? Just... really? If Kamijo didn't exist and she became a MG do you think she was still would be as miserable as she is now?
If there's no Kamijyo, she wouldn't make the wish in the first place. But oh, let's just have some fun and conjure a scenario where they do not make a wish at all.

1. Mami. Dead. Oops.
2. Sayaka. Kamijyo spirals more into depression, and Sayaka can't even see him that much anymore due to life as a magical girl. And the whole zombie thing.

If the miracles are indeed corrupted, people would be better off without them. Clearly this is not the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
Please I beg of you. Just. Please. Don't insert your own voice to what a Mami plainly says. You are not Mami, you do not have a say to what she really meant or feels, when, and I quote again, she said at timestamp 15:40-16:30 of episode 3 "there's nothing good being a MG".

I take more faith in her true feelings when she confessed to Madoka than anything she said before that point as the biggest indication that she DID have regrets in becoming a magical girl.
Episode 3 04:40 - 04:47:
"Its not like I regret my decision. I think my current way of life is much better than having died back there."

Episode 3 16:30 - 16:32:
"A magical girl's life isn't great at all".

I see no contradiction here. By her own admission, she's grateful that she's alive but that doesn't mean she likes being a magical girl. Separate the job and the payment, please.

Note that I never argued that Kyubey didn't do a bad thing to these girl. I do have objection that he's doubly a jerk by trading their lives with corrupted miracles. You can hate the job at your company, but that doesn't mean that they pay with Monopoly money.

The only question is: are those miracles a fair trade? Homura and Mami certainly think so. I say it depends on the wish.
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Old 2011-02-21, 10:40   Link #529
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I think only question no.4 is the only one that feel concrete enough to lean towards, since I think what MGs do with their newfound power is something that is completely within the judgment of the contractees to decide. The contractees have inalienable right to their own personal views and judgments, and how they manifest their views to be is perhaps sufficiently solid of an indicator on the merits or faults to those actions.

My feelings over no.3, on higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into is complicated by how much would I weigh on the ability for 14 years old to judge for themselves and be held accountable for their own actions. In truth, I think it may be an affront to one's own faculty to place all the blame onto Kyubey. I am, as such, undecided.

The methods of Kyuubee being justifiable or not becomes irrelevant if one rejects the notion of morals and ethics. No.2 is something that I have invested time into over the Kyuubee thread to discuss, and it will be repetitive to duplicate them here. No.1 as such has to do with whether the potential of saving lives that aren't even aware of this conflict and as such has never authorized anyone into protecting them... and whether or not if saving lives is all that desirable. That I also did not discuss here.


I am straying from episode 7 discussion since the crux of the matter now should not be discussed in the scope of the episodic discussion. Pardon me for the reminder.
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Old 2011-02-21, 10:40   Link #530
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Just a quick question I want to ask, given that I have a peripheral background in the medical world: Has there been informed consent?

The act of yanking out a MG's soul and putting it into a soul jar and turning their body into a husk would, on the balance, qualify for a situation requiring informed consent.

In fact, I shall argue that this is a form of surgery, and thus informed consent on what is supposed to happened should have taken place.

By any chance, are Triple_R and Kaijo legal students using this as a way to brainstorm and keep their minds fresh while dealing with the workload of reading Law?

Edit: I think I should also, in the interests of honesty, point out that I don't care very much for Kyuube's methods at all. Infantry leadership can be summed up in two words: "Follow me." You don't lead people by manipulating them into unfair contracts.

Then again, that may be because I'm comparing Kyuube to this man, whose catchphrase was "Follow me."
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Old 2011-02-21, 10:45   Link #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Ah, but who's to say that Kyubey knowingly manipulate and deceive humans? Can't he simply be following some guidelines? Or, can't he be simply acting based on trial and error?
He cannot be as manipulative as he is adapting to different situations if he is simply following guidelines. Even if all his knowledge is gained through trial and error, that does not change the fact that he has an understanding from the results of trial and error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Well Mami says they'd be dead and considering the minions were yelling in german "those are unknown flowers,lets cut them off" while holding scisors it doesn't seem they cared if they were MG or not

I like this but maybe she's just enjoying mentaly torturing Madoka before she finishes her off.

But really it seems to me all witches have their personalities so we can't judge all of them based on one.

The QB defense team would tell you he hasn't been manipulative, I completely disagree but thought I'd point it out.


But for the salesman metaphor to work he needs to profit from the situation somehow,what's in it for him;he doesn't have possession of the girls' souls,so that's not it,he does "eat" grief seeds though,that's one possibility people have come up with but I'm not fully certain.

In the end (and what this episode showed) is that making a contract with QB is likely a bad idea,especially if you make a selfless wish,wether that makes him evil or not is not really what I care about anymore.
I am just pointing out the method they are using to argue. I am not trying to be a witch defense lawyer as such will not go in length to further makes each argument more logically sound. As for his profit or motive, this doesn't matter in regards to discussion of his actions. If a drug dealer is selling drugs to support his family, does it make any difference to the people whose lives are destroyed due to the drug addiction fed by his actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Your analogy here is very flawed because the magical girls are on record as to clearly stating the danger and threat level posed by witches, to both human civilians, and magical girls.

For your analogy here to be valid, it would be necessary for experienced magical girls to talk about how evil or predatory Kyubey is. And even Homura, of all people, didn't say that.

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that Homura's stated take on Kyubey doesn't seem to have shifted the views of the "Kyubey is evil" camp at all. If there's anybody who would want Madoka to perceive Kyubey as rotten and evil, it would be Homura. And yet, her stated take on Kyubey is not terribly dissimilar at all from the defense that Kaijo, I, and some others have made of him.
My analogy seemed flawed to you because you have not taken all the consideration of possible defense for the witches as you have done with QB. If you would to do so, something like MGs stating the danger level of witches would not be sufficient deterrent to make a defense for witches. One can say the MGs only stated such info because they were told by QB so. One can also say that if their sole existence after they become MG is to kill witches, then they have to rationalize their actions to themselves to stay sane - by treating witches as a threat to humanity regardless if they truly are. Kyoko does not seem to regard witches the same way as Mami for example and that stems from her world view is reshaped towards only self interest and she has no need to define witches as threat to humanity since she isn't trying to be a savior.

MGs are being manipulated by QB. Since when does a subject under manipulation know they are being manipulated? We saw even Kyoko was shocked to hear about how MG's soul was stored in the soul gem. QB was forced to diverge that piece of information because of Madoka's actions. Most MGs are likely totally unaware that their soul has been ripped out of their body during contract. Sayaka clearly have some understanding of how predatory QB is after the reveal and is confronting him, only to be pushed more towards despair by more manipulation/threat from QB.

Homura on the other hand, only have one interest on her mind, preventing Madoka from becoming a MG. She isn't trying to save humanity or even preventing QB from making more MGs. So her agenda and actions are only focused around Madoka. Sayaka getting saved is merely an extension of that purpose. Her opinion of QB is made quite clear when she was trying to kill him in order to prevent Madoka from meeting him. The reason why she doesn't try to tell Madoka that QB is rotten and evil is the same reason she didn't tell Madoka about the contract and all the negative clause in the first place (Homura stated that when asked by Madoka) - Madoka would not have believed her and she has to see it with her own eyes, especially considering how Madoka and QB first met and Madoka's initial reaction. There may or may not be a reason behind her ceasefire at killing QB, the biggest one though might be the writer's excuse. If QB was killed, there would be no story to tell.
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Old 2011-02-21, 10:52   Link #532
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Actually nvm I'll do it now.

Quote:
1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others? This might have a gray area, but in the end is a yes or no question, and as to why one thinks that way. I am myself undecided.

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards. Again the possibility of a gray area, and maybe reconciling the two by having one justify the other may exist depending on your viewpoint. I lean towards a "no" answer, though not yet fully convinced.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame. At least this one has a gray area to choose from, of which I am inclined to put myself in.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power? I am, actually, more inclined to believe the latter, as I have yet to see a direct "bad" to result from choice a. That could easily change though.
I add the following:

5. Regarding QB and morality, the current arguments are a) QBs amorality makes is difficult to use objective standards to judge him; or b) The question of his morality is irrelevant because he must be judged by the standards at large regardless of what he believes in. I mentioned in his character thread that there might be a more gray choice, that he does possess some sort of morals, only that it is fundamentally different from the one at large and makes it seem he is amoral. In retrospect, that does not necessarily absolve him of culpability in all this.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-02-21 at 11:03.
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Old 2011-02-21, 11:19   Link #533
SagaraSouske
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and assume that a lot of people are getting headaches reading this thread so, for convenience, I'll summarize the issues being discussed in a friendlier and more civil manner. I'll also bring it up later again when we get more episodes.

1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others? This might have a gray area, but in the end is a yes or no question, and as to why one thinks that way. I am myself undecided.

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards. Again the possibility of a gray area, and maybe reconciling the two by having one justify the other may exist depending on your viewpoint. I lean towards a "no" answer, though not yet fully convinced.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame. At least this one has a gray area to choose from, of which I am inclined to put myself in.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power? I am, actually, more inclined to believe the latter, as I have yet to see a direct "bad" to result from choice a. That could easily change though.

So I'm still neutral. Or maybe I could just blame both sides (and thus earn the ire of Triple, Kaijo and Mentar ). Either way it would be best to at least try and distill the current debate in this thread into something simpler for all of us to understand, even those not actively participating.
Question 1 itself is under question. Are the MGs really saving countless other lives? The whole contract system and QB's actions does seem to be oriented towards saving lives but rather producing grief seeds.

Question 2 has the same issues as 1.

Question 3 one party is the manipulator, the other are victims. It's clear who the blame should be laid on. There is no gray area. It's like saying religiously indoctrined children that became suicide bombers are to be blamed for terrorism.

Question 4 there are things worse then death: being MG is one of them. Finding out more and more info about the contract and system just makes it worse, as we evidently see Sayaka's change in episode 7. Clearly Kyoko regrets her wish and now Sayaka as well. Even if she has not said so, her action speaks louder then words. Mami's confession clearly showed that her smile is merely a front, a facade she put up to both befriend Madoka and Sayaka and to ease her own mind. All the words about being careful about what you wish for from multiple characters, the particular background story of Kyoko that was chosen and Sayaka's tragedy all reinforce that become MG is a lose lose proposition.
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Old 2011-02-21, 11:42   Link #534
FlavorOfLife
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
By any chance, are Triple_R and Kaijo legal students using this as a way to brainstorm and keep their minds fresh while dealing with the workload of reading Law?
Eh, Kyubei's actions are unlawful. A poster a few weeks back mentioned the relevant term for Kyubei's failure in law so that person might be a law student. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem

Of course some will try to say "oh thats human law"
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Old 2011-02-21, 12:13   Link #535
panzerfan
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I raised the issue of contra proferantem to discuss the matter in relation to contract law when Kaijo was attempting to distance application of that with Kyubey. In the framework of social contracts, one would actually go so far as to say that human laws would be applicable to an alien that has the ability to be aware of such statues and still infringed them.

*I am not a law student though. Moreover, I am not convinced about jurisdictional matter applying itself onto something that the society at large can't even see.

@Deconstructor: Raising Duress, unconsciousability and Undue Influence clauses might be helpful if you want to further in this, but we digress.
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Old 2011-02-21, 12:18   Link #536
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Even if Kyuubei is not human, Kyuubei is on earth. He is making contracts with humans of earth. Minors, no less. Human law applies.
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Old 2011-02-21, 12:30   Link #537
Deconstructor
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife View Post
Eh, Kyubei's actions are unlawful. A poster a few weeks back mentioned the relevant term for Kyubei's failure in law so that person might be a law student. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem
At first, this looks to apply to Kyubey.

However, I think Kyubey is exempt from this. Kyubey did not include any ambiguous terms in his verbal contract explanation; everything he said was clearly explained.

The problem is that Kyubey is under no obligation to reveal the full details of a Puella Magi contract. For example, the Soul Gem was introduced in episode 2. To Sayaka and Madoka, there was no ambiguity or confusion. They did not know the Soul Gem's true purpose, and never asked about it. Four episodes later, the Soul Gem is revealed to be the actual soul of a Puella Magi.

If a charge is to be raised against Kyubey, I think it not to be Contra Proferentem, but withholding of crucial information. Kyubey summarized the terms of his contract to Madoka and Sayaka; in doing so, he has omitted less important information, such as the true nature of the Soul Gem. Logically, you would not read every word of a 40 page contract - you would take the most important parts and summarize. I think Kyubey is guilty is in his interpretation of what is considered relevant enough to be explained.

So, if being a Puella Magi means living in sheer depression for the rest on one's life, that is something that should be mentioned by Kyubey before the actual contraction.
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Old 2011-02-21, 12:34   Link #538
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Whew, just woke up, and there has been quite a few responses since I went to bed, so forgive me if I don't reply to any of them. If there is a specific point that you would like me to address, then reply to my post and let me know. But just remember, the odds of me doing so, are based on whether you reply to the important specific points I request.

A little Quid Pro Quo, to use another legal team. ^_~

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I'll go out on a limb and assume that a lot of people are getting headaches reading this thread so, for convenience, I'll summarize the issues being discussed in a friendlier and more civil manner. I'll also bring it up later again when we get more episodes.

1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others? This might have a gray area, but in the end is a yes or no question, and as to why one thinks that way. I am myself undecided.

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards. Again the possibility of a gray area, and maybe reconciling the two by having one justify the other may exist depending on your viewpoint. I lean towards a "no" answer, though not yet fully convinced.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame. At least this one has a gray area to choose from, of which I am inclined to put myself in.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power? I am, actually, more inclined to believe the latter, as I have yet to see a direct "bad" to result from choice a. That could easily change though.

So I'm still neutral. Or maybe I could just blame both sides (and thus earn the ire of Triple, Kaijo and Mentar ). Either way it would be best to at least try and distill the current debate in this thread into something simpler for all of us to understand, even those not actively participating.
Heh, you don't earn my ire at all. Indeed, you just earned a lot of respect form me. What we really want is for people to be open-minded and consider the possibility, at least waiting until the anime is finished to form a more concrete view, which is exactly what you are doing. As Triple_R put it, we're playing Devil's/Kyube's advocate, mainly, so the sig is partially tongue-in-cheek (not everyone gets the humor, though, heh). But I'll answer your points:

1. I'd say yes. It is regrettable, but I follow the Vulcan logic of "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." From experience, I know real life rarely has perfect answers, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty.

2. In the General section, there is a thread on "Was the nuclear bombing of Japan in WW2 justified?" It's easy for us to lean back and be an armchair quarterback, judging those who were in the position, since we have 20/20 hindsight and a comfy chair. To that end, I feel I can't be all self-righteous, and just say that war is a dirty business, and will dirty all those that participate. So that's why I'm initially leaning to justifiable (which says nothing in regards to morality) because it saves lives. But this is contingent upon whether there is another, better way that Kyube may have ignored, or that he wasn't responsible for the whole situation. If new evidence comes up, I am more than willing to shift my position to "not justifiable."

3. Definitely C. What a lot of people miss in our arguments, is that we aren't so much defending Kyube, as stating that blame is not solely his. We are each responsible for our own actions and decisions. To place it all on Kyube, is to abdicate any sense of personal responsibility. You can't protect an idiot from themselves, and Kyube's lack of human values makes his methods come across douchy, especially when he doesn't tell them. I understand why he didn't, but it's a tough choice to make. Again, if new evidence shows him in a different light, I will change my view.

4. B. Like you, I have seen no direct connection. The bad things have been purely a result of what the girls do after the wish is granted. Also, Homura bears this out when she says he offers true miracles. And given how many Magical girls she must have come across, I see no reason to doubt her in this regard (unless she's lying, but I see no reason to doubt that at this time; I only doubt what her ultimate goal is). In short, Homura is more of an expert than I, if she really has seen many, many other MG wishes. Given that she has every reason to not like Kyube, her defending his notions speaks volumes to me.

So, in short, those are where my views are. I have more respect for people like you, who keep their minds open, even if they initially feel that Kyube is evil. As long as they are willing to see things through, and be willing to change their minds, then I respect that, even if I ultimately disagree with your viewpoint at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Just a quick question I want to ask, given that I have a peripheral background in the medical world: Has there been informed consent?
It's actually not that clear, which is why there is some contention. Kyube made his offer, informed them of a lot of details (both himself, and through Mami). Not everything was covered, but Sayaka had to know that her body would change. She just never asked how that would happen.

So, she agreed to a procedure, but never thought to ask how the doctor would operate on her, even knowing she was going in for an operation. She had a degree of informed consent, but if we are really treating this from a medical standpoint, Kyube was partially a bad doctor for not covering himself from the possible legal ramifications, by not fully telling her everything.

Which is why I do place some blame at his feet, but also why I blame Sayaka. She basically said, "Okay, I'll go under the knife!" without asking what that would entail. And now is complaining when she learns the procedure has a certain side effect (that really hasn't changed much except her own perception).

Quote:
By any chance, are Triple_R and Kaijo legal students using this as a way to brainstorm and keep their minds fresh while dealing with the workload of reading Law?
Heh, not really. Just a fascination for certain subjects, which is why I brought up the Read the Fine Print section in tvtropes. We're not exactly dealign with a straightforward situation that could be judged in our court system. At least, no legal precedent has been set for magical contracts, heh. Let me quote a relevant part:

"Tropers should rest (mostly) assured that contract law has clauses against "obviously egregious" terms written into a contract. That said, there's plenty of non-egregious ways a contract can harm you not to mention what counts as legally "egregious" is only extremely outrageous things or something specifically mentioned in law. Judges don't like to overturn a contract unless it is clearly illegal. And the law very often does not prevent "unfair" contracts. "

Bold part is my emphasis. The legality of Kyube's contract would depend greatly upon the judge. The law doesn't exist to protect stupid people, so "unfair" contracts can exist, if you stupidly sign your name to it. This is what I feel Sayaka did. He's a douche, but Sayaka is an idiot.

And I'm real big on personal responsibility, and that the decisions and actions we take, are our fault alone. I won't blame anyone else for what happens to me, if it was my decision that led me to that.
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Old 2011-02-21, 12:36   Link #539
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
At first, this looks to apply to Kyubey.

However, I think Kyubey is exempt from this. Kyubey did not include any ambiguous terms in his verbal contract explanation; everything he said was clearly explained.
No it wasn't. He used ambiguous terms that didn't mean anything to anyone (but him, *maybe*).
Quote:

If a charge is to be raised against Kyubey, I think it not to be Contra Proferentem, but withholding of crucial information. Kyubey summarized the terms of his contract to Madoka and Sayaka; in doing so, he has omitted less important information, such as the true nature of the Soul Gem. Logically, you would not read every word of a 40 page contract - you would take the most important parts and summarize. I think Kyubey is guilty is in his interpretation of what is considered relevant enough to be explained.
i'd say both.
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Old 2011-02-21, 12:51   Link #540
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
No it wasn't. He used ambiguous terms that didn't mean anything to anyone (but him, *maybe*).
I could be wrong, but I remember Kyubey being very straightforward with his explanations.

Of course, if you could provide me some ambiguous terms, I would be happy to re-consider.

Just remember that Kyubey can play the "unimportant" card. He did not tell Sayaka about the Soul Gem because he thought it was unnecessary to know. Kyubey has a case in this regard... Sayaka functioned without said knowledge.

However, this does not exempt Kyubey from hiding crucial information. Things such as: A Puella Magi will never die. Wishing to become a Puella Magi causes tragedy. Evil wishes cause you to become a witch, while good wishes cause you to become a Puella Magi.

I do not know that Kyubey is hiding these things... but the fact that Kyubey is hiding some things is enough to raise suspicion on Kyubey. Combine this with the observation that all of Kyubey's contractors were miserable at the time of their contraction, and you start to wonder what other dark secrets lie behind that cat smile.
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