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Old 2011-02-21, 13:35   Link #12081
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
This is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Gaddafi under threat as revolt hits Tripoli




A soldier serves his/her country, abides by his presidents orders so he/she could protect his/her own people. Why are they fucking shot for refusing to kill innocents?

The rule of the thumb is to protect the people, not the damn regime!
You are watching Libya collapse... as word of this spreads, it will split unit cohesion, more of the professional and technical classes will revolt... the army leaders are cutting their own throats in the end.

There was a point where I thought they might have worked it out ... but you kill enough cousins and uncles and aunts and friends -- and you piss *everyone* off.
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Old 2011-02-21, 13:55   Link #12082
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
This is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Gaddafi under threat as revolt hits Tripoli




A soldier serves his/her country, abides by his presidents orders so he/she could protect his/her own people. Why are they fucking shot for refusing to kill innocents?

The rule of the thumb is to protect the people, not the damn regime!
its done.
Gaddafi is done.
if things have come to the point where a dictator needs to use fear tactics against, not protesters, but the people who's job is to protect his regime FROM the protesters, then thats it.

might as well book a flight out of the country right then and there.
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Old 2011-02-21, 13:59   Link #12083
Vexx
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Libya - latest NY Times report, lots happening real fast:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/wo...er=rss&emc=rss
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:05   Link #12084
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You are watching Libya collapse... as word of this spreads, it will split unit cohesion, more of the professional and technical classes will revolt... the army leaders are cutting their own throats in the end.

There was a point where I thought they might have worked it out ... but you kill enough cousins and uncles and aunts and friends -- and you piss *everyone* off.
The problem is that Libya is an oil-exporting country. I don't really care if Gaddafi gets waxed the way Park Chung Hee does, but if he steps down it would be a whole lot easier on everyone's pockets for the rest of this year due to inflating oil prices. The King of Bahrain did it the smart way so he doesn't further the angst and dire economic conditions on his people due to withdrawing investments and hiking costs around the world.

Everyone is scared stiff and buying out all the oil in the market to hoard, forcing oil prices to rise. Soon more speculators will jump in to call longs and the price of oil is going to hit $2.50 at the pump ($1.97 now). This will result in increased transport costs, which then leads to increased logistical expenditure around the world, and the follow up will be rising prices of anything that can be shipped.

This includes food. Get ready to turn that lawn into a small potato garden.

P.S And if the state breaks down into a civil war, it is going to become another Afghanistan. It is a place where the rural and urban areas are very socially divided.
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:07   Link #12085
bladeofdarkness
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so now they are bringing in mercs from the outside to brutalize the protesters ?
a dictator that needs hired help to oppress his own people, doesn't inspire a whole lot of faith.
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:15   Link #12086
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
so now they are bringing in mercs from the outside to brutalize the protesters ?
a dictator that needs hired help to oppress his own people, doesn't inspire a whole lot of faith.
These African mercs aren't your normal "holidaying" Blackwater guys (read : moonlighting on "vacation") or Mossad sleeper agents creating slush funds, they are the stuff of West Side Boys and ex-FARC types who fought in the 1990s unrest of Africa - they are poorly armed and trained, but they have seen real action. AND they lack the FFI and combat ethics the former has.

They would just shoot anything they feel like. It is going to be a fucking genocide and a civil war.
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:23   Link #12087
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
They would just shoot anything they feel like. It is going to be a fucking genocide and a civil war.
in other words, the good old "if the cash is there, we do not care" mentality.
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Old 2011-02-21, 14:28   Link #12088
Asuras
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Apparently several Libyan pilots were told to bomb not just the protesters in Libya, but their own military bases to prevent civilians from arming themselves.
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Old 2011-02-21, 15:22   Link #12089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Apparently several Libyan pilots were told to bomb not just the protesters in Libya, but their own military bases to prevent civilians from arming themselves.
(to add a little detail)
Two of them did take off, armed with anti ground weapons. In the air, they got the order to bomb the demonstrators. Luckly, they rejected the order and landed in Malta.

EDIT:

Must correct myself here.

Looks like these two aircrafts from the lybish airforce werent weaponed.
Photo here.
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Old 2011-02-21, 16:14   Link #12090
Simon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
A soldier serves his/her country, abides by his presidents orders so he/she could protect his/her own people. Why are they fucking shot for refusing to kill innocents?

The rule of the thumb is to protect the people, not the damn regime!
Hopefully the people ordering the shootings will be brought to justice when the regime crumbles. But what about the Western nations that armed them?

Quote:
In May 2008, the US firm General Dynamics inked a $165m (£102m) contract to equip the Libyan army's elite second brigade with sophisticated communications systems.

This force, led by Mr Gaddafi's son Khamis, was deployed to the streets of al-Bayda - a city east of Benghazi and near the border with Egypt - where it has unleashed live ammunition on protesters.

Export licences for British arms to Libya in the first nine months of 2010 were valued at over £200m, spanning military cameras and sniper rifles.
Source
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Old 2011-02-21, 16:20   Link #12091
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Hopefully the people ordering the shootings will be brought to justice when the regime crumbles. But what about the Western nations that armed them?



Source
i wouldn't consider "sophisticated communications systems" like what GD is said to have sold them, as an example of Western nations having to do with the violence against the protesters.

besides, having these kinda regimes dependent on Western weapon suppliers is actually good, as it gives the west something to pressure them with.
if Libya's army was more dependent on U.S support like Egypt's army is, things in Libya might have looked different.
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Old 2011-02-21, 16:21   Link #12092
Rag
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Apparently several Libyan pilots were told to bomb not just the protesters in Libya, but their own military bases to prevent civilians from arming themselves.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/internat...libya-1.344843

Death toll jumps to 600.

I pray this doesn't get as bad as the Tiamese Square incident.
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Old 2011-02-21, 16:59   Link #12093
Ithekro
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I guess the real question will be "Will the Western powers be able to deal with the new governments in North Africa and the Middle East once this is over?" Will the tensions finally end?
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Old 2011-02-21, 17:05   Link #12094
Asuras
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There will be tension now more than ever, as the people argue with each other over the next step; who will take the lead?
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Old 2011-02-21, 17:29   Link #12095
Simon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
i wouldn't consider "sophisticated communications systems" like what GD is said to have sold them, as an example of Western nations having to do with the violence against the protesters.
OK, I should have said "equipped" rather than "armed", but the point stands: soldiers need more than guns to operate effectively, and companies like GD have helped the Libyan armed forces to do that. And to be fair, the likes of China and Russia have probably done exactly the same - oil revenue buys a lot of friends.

Quote:
besides, having these kinda regimes dependent on Western weapon suppliers is actually good, as it gives the west something to pressure them with.
I've heard this claim before, but frankly I'm highly dubious of it. How much real political influence does the US have over Israel, for example, despite all the weapons sales? Maybe that's not a good example because US domestic politics also comes into play there, but in general it seems that once you give leaders like Gaddafi material support they're quick to forget whatever promises they made. At most they might try to save their suppliers embarrassment by keeping their actions out of the media, but that hardly counts as a moral victory.
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Old 2011-02-21, 18:21   Link #12096
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
...
besides, having these kinda regimes dependent on Western weapon suppliers is actually good, as it gives the west something to pressure them with.
if Libya's army was more dependent on U.S support like Egypt's army is, things in Libya might have looked different.
By the same logic... would you propose selling Merkava tanks to Iran? Its just about money, other things are almost completely irrelevant for most weapon exporters in the west... unless it is a strategic decission not to do weapon deals with a certain regime, because it is imminently dangerous for the own people or allies.
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Old 2011-02-22, 00:45   Link #12097
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
By the same logic... would you propose selling Merkava tanks to Iran? Its just about money, .
Exept than Iran do produce their own tanks ( don't know how good they are thought ... )

If you stop to sell ''non-lethal'' munitions to such countries, would they use more easiely conventional munitions ?
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Old 2011-02-22, 01:23   Link #12098
Simon
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65 dead in Christchurch earthquake, death toll expected to rise

This is shaping up to be New Zealand's worst disaster since the 1979 Mt Erebus air crash.
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Old 2011-02-22, 01:35   Link #12099
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Exept than Iran do produce their own tanks ( don't know how good they are thought ... )

If you stop to sell ''non-lethal'' munitions to such countries, would they use more easiely conventional munitions ?
If you had a pepper spray would it stop you from using your gun (when you think a gun must be used to solve the conflict)?
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Old 2011-02-22, 01:48   Link #12100
Ithekro
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Depends entirely on the situation. Does your pepper spray have the range to take down the person? Will it render him "harmless" to you so you can end the conflict?

However there are non-lethal bullets that can be used that will have the range to knock him out at range. Trouble with revolutions is, do you want the revolutionary to still be alive to continue revolting after he gets back up? Will reducing the number of revolutionaries help your government, or will it create a martyr?
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