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Old 2011-02-22, 02:19   Link #12101
Jinto
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If you want to stop a revolution, the only thing that works, is generating so much fear among the people that they are just glad to be left alone. There is a fine line between a martyr and deterrence, but it defines the outcome of such a revolution. If a regime uses tactics similar to the tactics used by the SS/GeStaPo, chances are they will succeed with their murdering tactics.
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Old 2011-02-22, 05:02   Link #12102
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
By the same logic... would you propose selling Merkava tanks to Iran? .
the difference being that while Iran and Israel are enemies, the U.S and Libya are not.
why did Egypt's goverment act (relatively) tamely against the protesters while Libya is killing them by the hundreds ?
its because Egypt was dependent on U.S aid, while Libya is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
How much real political influence does the US have over Israel, for example, despite all the weapons sales?
much more then you think, and much, much more then most people in Israel are happy about.
to the point where there is an active discussion about just forgoing the U.S financial support altogether' because it comes with too many strings.
if it wasn't for the U.S's manufacturing capabilities, this would seriously be on the table.

as it stands, the general sense in Israel is that whenever a new Israeli prime minister is elected, his first task as prime minister is to go to the white house and hand over his balls, because he won't be needing them for the next 4 years.

now imagine if you could have that kind of influence on Gaddafi.
or Assad, or Ahmadinijad.
there is a very good reason why countries with U.S supported dictators are much more likely to have the dictator overthrown while countries like Libya or Syria are not.
a western supported dictator has a much shorter leash.
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2011-02-22 at 05:45.
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Old 2011-02-22, 09:17   Link #12103
ganbaru
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Egypt's military to move on cabinet, march expected
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...70O3UW20110222
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Old 2011-02-22, 11:30   Link #12104
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U.S. naval forces who were trailing the Americans' captured yacht with four warships quickly boarded the vessel after hearing the gunfire. They tried to provide lifesaving care to the Americans, but they died of their wounds, U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Florida said in a statement.


again i said, "Hang all Pirates"
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:01   Link #12105
ganbaru
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^ So much means used with so little result... maybe the time for being more ''proactive'' in the fight againts piracy ?
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:11   Link #12106
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
^ So much means used with so little result... maybe the time for being more ''proactive'' in the fight againts piracy ?
by "Pro-active" do you by any chance mean "kll them all and let god sort them out" ?
because i'm personally all for it.

I say we should bring back the whole "Hostis humani generis" thing back to life.
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:24   Link #12107
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
again i said, "Hang all Pirates"
Quote:
A member of a U.S. special operations force killed one of the pirates with a knife as he went inside of the yacht, said Vice Adm. Mark Fox, commander of U.S. naval forces for Central Command.
Badass is badass. So much for not bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
^ So much means used with so little result... maybe the time for being more ''proactive'' in the fight againts piracy ?
They couldn't snipe them like the Maersk Alabama pirates because of the conditions. This is a major screw-up, but there isn't much the ship can actually do because the yacht is much bigger than a lifeboat, so they can't corner the pirates and shoot them out.

Raiding anything bigger than a patrol boat sized craft will add casualties to the list -that point isn't just military doctrine, it is real logic.
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:38   Link #12108
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Badass is badass. So much for not bringing a knife to a gunfight.
the one i am using in my kitchen to cut apples is a knife. the stuff the marines use should be rightfully call a dagger.
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Old 2011-02-22, 12:39   Link #12109
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
They couldn't snipe them like the Maersk Alabama pirates because of the conditions. This is a major screw-up, but there isn't much the ship can actually do because the yacht is much bigger than a lifeboat, so they can't corner the pirates and shoot them out.

Raiding anything bigger than a patrol boat sized craft will add casualties to the list -that point isn't just military doctrine, it is real logic.
By ''means'' I was refering to the number of warship (4 ), not the method they raided the yacht. One or two would have been enough, no?
And for the ''proactive mesure'' I was more thinking about mesure to take before pirates take a ship.
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Old 2011-02-22, 13:05   Link #12110
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the one i am using in my kitchen to cut apples is a knife. the stuff the marines use should be rightfully call a dagger.
You CAN cut an apple with the knife/dagger. I think it is more appropriate to call it a knife since it can not only kill, it can also be used to dig holes, cut food, saw through trees (that is what the serrated edge is for) and of course, kill.

A dagger is a weapon with sharp edges on both sides. The Fairburn-Sykes Stiletto is an example of a dagger because it is solely used for combat purposes - the knife used is probably a standard issue with a serrated edge on one end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
By ''means'' I was refering to the number of warship (4 ), not the method they raided the yacht. One or two would have been enough, no?
And for the ''proactive mesure'' I was more thinking about mesure to take before pirates take a ship.
From what I know, there are two ways of action against enemies in asymmetric warfare : overt and covert.

Psychological pressure is under overt action, and probably what the ship crew is doing against the pirates with that many ships. A covert action would be like Maersk and Samho (earlier this year, raided by elements of 707th).

Piracy is impossible to prevent. There is no proactive measure as much as pundits (read : retarded over-optimistic dumbasses, they really have ROoDs in their heads) like to believe. Vigilance isn't a proactive measure, it is a requirement. But as Murphy's law dictates, anything can go wrong as long as there is a chance for it to do so. Boarding the ship, in any circumstance no matter how well the boarding party is trained, shit will still happen.

Though I am surprised that the VBSS killed the pirate with a dagger instead of bludgeoning him to death with an OC spray. At least the armskote is smart enough not to issue any of them tasers (any naval combat group shouldn't be equipped with tasers, it is totally stupid and impractical due to the environment they operate in).
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-02-22, 13:07   Link #12111
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
the one i am using in my kitchen to cut apples is a knife. the stuff the marines use should be rightfully call a dagger.
Daggers are double edged. US combat knives tend to be single edged modern versions of a bowie knife.
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Old 2011-02-22, 13:08   Link #12112
Ithekro
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If it were legal I can imagine several Americans signing on as privateers specifically to hunt pirates for money from the US Government.
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Old 2011-02-22, 13:29   Link #12113
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If it were legal I can imagine several Americans signing on as privateers specifically to hunt pirates for money from the US Government.
So would most VBSS/SOF operators. How would you like it if you have to radio back to your superior, only to have him put you on hold while he contacts the politicians who can't decide amongst themselves to shoot or capture those pirates?

Although a doctrine I know states "shoot those who are still holding their weapons, capture/incapacitate those who aren't", the rule of "ask first" still overrides that. The problem is that there is no time limit tagged to the latter.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2011-02-22, 13:29   Link #12114
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
the difference being that while Iran and Israel are enemies, the U.S and Libya are not.
why did Egypt's goverment act (relatively) tamely against the protesters while Libya is killing them by the hundreds ?
its because Egypt was dependent on U.S aid, while Libya is not.
Oh, of course that was so obvious I just did not see it. Imagine this, I was thinking that Libya is ruled by an insane dictator and Egypt was ruled by a corrupt regime with a corrupt yet not insane president.
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Old 2011-02-22, 13:40   Link #12115
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Oh, of course that was so obvious I just did not see it. Imagine this, I was thinking that Libya is ruled by an insane dictator and Egypt was ruled by a corrupt regime with a corrupt yet not insane president.
There were reports that Mubarak ordered a crackdown and the Egyptian Army refused to carry out those orders. Note that I am unsure of the reliability of that blog, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 2011-02-22, 14:08   Link #12116
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Oh, of course that was so obvious I just did not see it. Imagine this, I was thinking that Libya is ruled by an insane dictator and Egypt was ruled by a corrupt regime with a corrupt yet not insane president.
Mubarak is only gone because of U.S pressure.
if not for that, he'd still be around, and the protesters in Egypt could spend the next six months protesting away.
half a million protesters means less then 1% of Egypt population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
There were reports that Mubarak ordered a crackdown and the Egyptian Army refused to carry out those orders. Note that I am unsure of the reliability of that blog, so take it with a grain of salt.
the reports are NOT accurate.
Mubarak wouldn't have ordered the Military to violently crack down on the protesters, as it would negate the whole point of having the military there in the first place.

if he wanted to crack down, he would have used the security forces, which was what happened in the first few days.
but then, when that didn't work, he changed strategies and police and security forces back and instead called in the army, not to crush the protesters, but to present them with targets they couldn't just attack.
a protester attacking police and security forces would have been viewed as perfectly legitimate in the eyes of many in Egypt.
a protester who tries attacking a soldier would immediately singled himself out as scum in the eyes of most Egyptians.

bringing the army in was a brilliant move from a Machiavellian standpoint, and had the U.S not forced (by threatening to cut off aid) the army to tell Mubarak to go, he would have stayed in power.
the absence of such pressure points in Libya, Syria and Iran, is why the leaders of THOSE countries can get away with using much more violent methods against protesters.
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Old 2011-02-22, 14:40   Link #12117
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
So would most VBSS/SOF operators. How would you like it if you have to radio back to your superior, only to have him put you on hold while he contacts the politicians who can't decide amongst themselves to shoot or capture those pirates?

Although a doctrine I know states "shoot those who are still holding their weapons, capture/incapacitate those who aren't", the rule of "ask first" still overrides that. The problem is that there is no time limit tagged to the latter.
Bonus exercise: imagine all the fun to be had when an American privateer attacks a Chinese one, or vice versa, due to some kind of miscommunication...
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Old 2011-02-22, 17:25   Link #12118
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Bonus exercise: imagine all the fun to be had when an American privateer attacks a Chinese one, or vice versa, due to some kind of miscommunication...
If it was the only problem than it would cause... but think about how the official ( aka the millitary) would distinguish betweem those privateers and the pirates.
It might even facilitate the pirates's life as they have to pass themself as fishmens before assaulting a boat, to pass as privateers could be even easier and more practical.
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Old 2011-02-22, 17:29   Link #12119
Ithekro
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As they say, cursed to live in interesting times.
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Old 2011-02-22, 18:17   Link #12120
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Mubarak is only gone because of U.S pressure.
if not for that, he'd still be around, and the protesters in Egypt could spend the next six months protesting away.
half a million protesters means less then 1% of Egypt population.
I thought that had more to do with his Military bassically ignoring his orders. The US certainly didn't pressure that.

US support evaporated because he had no real control on the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Badass is badass. So much for not bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Most spec forces ussually keep a utility knife on them anyways. He probably found himself to close to use his gun, so he switched to his knife.



Though regardless of all the chest thumping, this really is a complex situation to deal with. I'm not sure that sending in more warships is going to help solve the fundemental problem going on here. That Somalia is completely lawless and that there's no way to prevent pirates from setting sail from there.
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