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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Rating
Perfect 10 57 40.71%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 33.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 16.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 6.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.14%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.71%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-02-22, 19:31   Link #681
Kaijo
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One random thought I had... witches are punishment. Much like that one familiar that bounces you one time for each lie? That's an... odd way to prey upon humanity. If someone has never lied, then they are safe.

So some support for the "Kyube is evil" theory would be that he is interfering in the natural punishment of humans.

On the flip side, it's kinda like a religious thing. "I will punish humanity with these witches, but give them one hope. I will send a creature to earth, and if young girls will take up the mantle to fight, then they can help cleanse mankind of it's sins. But it must be their choice alone; they must bear the hardships."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
there's a difference between not knowing the wish & not having one.
I would argue that there is... considering Madoka still doesn't have a wish. I mean, she just wanted to fight before, and wasn't really concerned about a wish. ("How about cake?")

Quote:
saving humanity? or defeating witches? and the two are not the same. his goal could very well be collecting grief seeds. isnt that speculation?
Yep. Just like what you were saying is speculation.

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facts are facts. their interpretation is speculation
They are indeed.^^

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she had literally no choice but to either die or agree; not much of a choice
But you said the safer road was not to believe in him because he leads to death.

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the way it ended... there was at least the option of greater # of family members surviving the other way around. i can hardly call father butchering his family the right way to go.
How do you know he wouldn't have butchered them? Or maybe they would have died to starvation, Kyoko included? At least this way, she survived. Or maybe the kids would have been sold off. Or the father commits suicide, followed by the mother, leaving the two girls penniless, powerless and starving. Perhaps picked up and prostituted by slavers.

We know what happened, but there are plenty of worse alternatives that we can imagine, so you can't say this was the worst thing to happen to them.
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Old 2011-02-22, 19:41   Link #682
SagaraSouske
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
What is supposed to be destroyed by the MG system? Except witches and familiars.
MG themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Kyubei isn't responsible for said situations. Not for the accident, not for Kamijou's broken arm, not for Kyouko's family's misfortune. Also, they very well have a choice. And in each case, it was initially wiser to go for the wish. Mami could continue living. Kyouko's family achieved reputation and didn't have to starve any longer. Kamijou's hand was healed. Those are all good things. Kyubei just does what he does. Try making a contract with girls who can see him and who may have something they want changed. Whether the later happenings (Mami's death, Kyouko's familiy's downfall, Hitomi's revelation) are coincidences we don't know, but they're part of the tragedies at any rate which aren't directly linked to the MG system or the wish. In these cases, the girls mainly have a personal responsibility (and they're probably also rather unlucky but that's life for you).
QB isn't responsible for the problems in the girl's lives. He is however responsible for taking advantage of the situation and present just enough information (the good side) of the contract to entice them into becoming a MG without giving them the down side. He is also responsible to manipulate events that occurred that puts the girls in a position that left them between a bad choice and a worse choice and making it seems like contracting with him is the better one of the two.

Each circumstance of the MG when they contracted is already posted in details by several others and the arguments back and forth already made. In each case, an illusion of choice was offered but whether it is through withholding information (all, but Mami specifically), taking advantage of emotional vulnerability (Kyoko, Sayaka), creating circumstances that forces a choice to be made despite being reluctant (Madoka), the girls are being manipulated to contract with QB, except in Madoka's case Homura intervened.


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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
So even if you think it can't be justified (risking deaths should never be, agreed), what is your alternative solution? And if it's about statistics: there's 1~2 MGs per territory. But a random number of witches per territory, and each one has the potential to have several people killed. Well, damn. So I agree that it's not as big a threat as some make it out to be, but it is one anyway. And we don't know another solution besides having MGs fight them! The girls who have potential to become MG are left with a yes or no choice. But at least they have one. If they go for the offer without even knowing that they have to fight witches which are bound to be dangerous one way or another, then you can't blame everything on Kyubei either.
I don't know what the alternative solution would be. But MG system isn't a good solution.

And I am not blaming everything on QB, well not yet anyways unless it turns out the whole system was just created to farm grief seed as several people have speculated. I am just saying he needs to be accountable for his actions. Those actions are essentially destroying lives of many young girls.


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Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
I think it's not justified. But better have 1000 MGs fight for 10000 people than have 0 MGs and eventually 11000 people NOT saved. Even the characters have different views on this matter. Madoka says it's unfair, Homura says it's not even enough of a prize. But what can you do? And it's not like MGs are existances that purely are victims who cannot do much. They do at least receive superhuman abilities as a great back up and possibly passive attributes.
I am not saying to leave witches to do their damage. I am just pointing out MG system is not a justifiable means to an end.
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Old 2011-02-22, 19:46   Link #683
MikeyGrey
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I would argue that there is... considering Madoka still doesn't have a wish. I mean, she just wanted to fight before, and wasn't really concerned about a wish. ("How about cake?")
i did say earlier that madoka doesnt have a wish & thats the point. he wants her to be MG even though she doesnt have a wish
Quote:
But you said the safer road was not to believe in him because he leads to death.
lol "potential death" is what i said. and duh! if the choice is die now or die later then latter is the obvious pick. that doesnt make it the "optimal" choice.
Quote:
How do you know he wouldn't have butchered them? Or maybe they would have died to starvation, Kyoko included? At least this way, she survived. Or maybe the kids would have been sold off. Or the father commits suicide, followed by the mother, leaving the two girls penniless, powerless and starving. Perhaps picked up and prostituted by slavers.

We know what happened, but there are plenty of worse alternatives that we can imagine, so you can't say this was the worst thing to happen to them.
thats why i said "there was the option". QB is no holy grail. whether it be his own design or circumstance, none of the girls so far are happy. so isnt it the obvious logical choice to think of ways w/o his help that could "potentially" improve the situation? giving up being afraid of worst outcome is akin to being afraid to live in fear of dying.
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Old 2011-02-22, 19:49   Link #684
Silverwyrm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post

I am not saying to leave witches to do their damage. I am just pointing out MG system is not a justifiable means to an end.
Hypothetical question based on several assumptions but I'd like you to answer it.

Assuming these witches would cause greater and greater damage left alone. Assuming young girls were the only ones who could receive this magic and ability to see to combat them. What would you propose would be the best course of action?

I guess, is the means Kyubey contracts your problem, or the system itself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
lol "potential death" is what i said. and duh! if the choice is die now or die later then latter is the obvious pick. that doesnt make it the "optimal" choice.
Mami did feel it was the "optimal" choice, she said herself that "living like this is way better than having died back then"
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Old 2011-02-22, 19:54   Link #685
MikeyGrey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
Hypothetical question based on several assumptions but I'd like you to answer it.

Assuming these witches would cause greater and greater damage left alone. Assuming young girls were the only ones who could receive this magic and ability to see to combat them. What would you propose would be the best course of action?

I guess, is the means Kyubey contracts your problem, or the system itself?
system is flawed but it does function. in that case it needs improvement.
the first one i would like implemented is QB recruiting all and not just those that need a wish. who knows, some might decide to be one for a "cake".
another is to give out all the information straight up. MG's life hangs in the balance & they are dying without even knowing the whole thing. as i said earlier, destroying one life to save many others is not justified (everyone may not agree but thats my opinion)

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Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
Mami did feel it was the "optimal" choice, she said herself that "living like this is way better than having died back then"
that makes it better (or way better) not optimal. in my opinion, optimal would be for her to have the old life back. she paid a price (however insignificant doesnt matter so long as it isnt free) for the current life so its not optimal by default
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:00   Link #686
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the spear girl probably has the most sensible backstory...

Madoka and her friend are just spoiled rich-girls.
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:01   Link #687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
i did say earlier that madoka doesnt have a wish & thats the point. he wants her to be MG even though she doesnt have a wish
Really? Because looking above, it looks an awful lot like you're saying Kyube approaches those who have a wish. So if Madoka doesn't (and Sayaka doesn't), that would defeat the point.

Quote:
lol "potential death" is what i said. and duh! if the choice is die now or die later then latter is the obvious pick. that doesnt make it the "optimal" choice.
Newsflash for ya; life is 100% fatal. You're not gettin' out alive. Since we're all going to die someday, then Kyube's potential death is no different than any other. Hell, you could step outside tomorrow and get run down by a car. But if you had contracted, you would have survived it.

And really, I'm beginning to think this whole death thing is overrated. We've seen MG's kill tons of witches and familiars, and only one MG death. So while it may seem risky, it doesn't seem higher than some other activities people might participate in.

Quote:
thats why i said "there was the option". QB is no holy grail. whether it be his own design or circumstance, none of the girls so far are happy. so isnt it the obvious logical choice to think of ways w/o his help that could "potentially" improve the situation? giving up being afraid of worst outcome is akin to being afraid to live in fear of dying.
Kyoko is happy. She doesn't seem to be afraid of dying, jumping in without a second thought.

Quote:
another is to give out all the information straight up.
Question for you: If giving out all information leads to less girls recruited, such that more people are dying to witches and familiars, would you still go this route? Or would you hold back a little information so that you could get the troops you need to protect people?
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:07   Link #688
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Really? Because looking above, it looks an awful lot like you're saying Kyube approaches those who have a wish. So if Madoka doesn't (and Sayaka doesn't), that would defeat the point.
sayaka does (she didnt know it but she had one) & madoka doesnt (but qb still wants her). my point is qb wants people and doesnt care for the wish. the wishes make it easier for him to get people but his priority is recruiting
Quote:
Newsflash for ya; life is 100% fatal. You're not gettin' out alive. Since we're all going to die someday, then Kyube's potential death is no different than any other. Hell, you could step outside tomorrow and get run down by a car. But if you had contracted, you would have survived it.

And really, I'm beginning to think this whole death thing is overrated. We've seen MG's kill tons of witches and familiars, and only one MG death. So while it may seem risky, it doesn't seem higher than some other activities people might participate in.
yea life's one way road alright; just some people take the exit sooner. but thats no reason to go headlong into the shoulder. point is to enjoy the drive. and as for it being riskier, what has the higher odds of dying? walking along a path & getting eaten or seeking out the eaters?
Quote:
Kyoko is happy. She doesn't seem to be afraid of dying, jumping in without a second thought.
honestly? she looks happy to you? dont confuse acceptance with satisfaction.

Quote:
Question for you: If giving out all information leads to less girls recruited, such that more people are dying to witches and familiars, would you still go this route? Or would you hold back a little information so that you could get the troops you need to protect people?
real life potential scenario:govt created a full body armor that completely prevents all damage... be it bullet or nuke. actually its bs but they need soldiers to protect the people. is that justified?
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:10   Link #689
Silverwyrm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
system is flawed but it does function. in that case it needs improvement.
the first one i would like implemented is QB recruiting all and not just those that need a wish. who knows, some might decide to be one for a "cake".
another is to give out all the information straight up. MG's life hangs in the balance & they are dying without even knowing the whole thing. as i said earlier, destroying one life to save many others is not justified (everyone may not agree but thats my opinion)


that makes it better (or way better) not optimal. in my opinion, optimal would be for her to have the old life back. she paid a price (however insignificant doesnt matter so long as it isnt free) for the current life so its not optimal by default
Well I'm satisfied with your first answer personally and agree with most of it. The system could use improvement (assuming the above is all true of course). I don't think Kyubey sees that himself though. Even if more information turned more/most away, assuming the potential pool isn't very small, appealing to more would likely end up with the same or nearly the same amount of MGs.

Well I suppose your right there, but I guess my point was she didn't feel cheated or regret it (said so herself). More or less, she was "happy"(lack of better word) with the opportunity she was given.

edit: I would say Kyoko looks more or less "content" with her current life, she certainly doesn't seem depressed anymore (Im sure she was after that deal with her family) or hateful of being trapped in the system.
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:27   Link #690
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
sayaka does (she didnt know it but she had one) & madoka doesnt (but qb still wants her). my point is qb wants people and doesnt care for the wish. the wishes make it easier for him to get people but his priority is recruiting
The definition you're trying to give is so broad as to make it meaningless; it could apply to everyone, because everyone could probably come up with a wish if they thought long enough, if they didn't have one initially. Madoka may have one she is afraid of voicing.

Quote:
yea life's one way road alright; just some people take the exit sooner. but thats no reason to go headlong into the shoulder. point is to enjoy the drive. and as for it being riskier, what has the higher odds of dying? walking along a path & getting eaten or seeking out the eaters?
Some people climb cliffs and mountains. Some walk tightropes above a canyon. Some jump over many cars on a motorcycle. Some engage in rough competitive sports or fights. Some sit in a small capsule and light a fiery candle under their ass and get launched into the cold voice of space.

And all of them enjoy doing it, and some of them die. Hell, Steve Irwin enjoyed playing around with dangerous animals, and it eventually killed him.

Chance of death is not the most important determinant for a life decision, because we humans have been making much more dangerous ones for thousands of years. Ever since Grog bet his buddy Ugg that he could wrestle a saber-toothed tiger barehanded, heh.

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honestly? she looks happy to you? dont confuse acceptance with satisfaction.
I don't. She looks happy to me. Or maybe content or satisfied. She's doing what she wants, using the power she has, completely fine with the price. At the least, she doesn't seem nearly as angsty as Sayaka, nor as cold as Homura; the latter of which I would say was merely "acceptance."

Quote:
real life potential scenario:govt created a full body armor that completely prevents all damage... be it bullet or nuke. actually its bs but they need soldiers to protect the people. is that justified?
You didn't answer my question. It's polite to answer an opponent's question, before posing one of your own. But I have a problem with your question because no one would buy that a suit of armor protects against everything. Media would have a field day stripping that down, the first time it fails to protect against a bullet, it would be exposed. You'll need a slightly better theoretical question.

But let me spin a yarn about a hypothetical that might match what you're trying to get across.

In WW2, the British had cracked the German's secret code, and intercepted a message that the Germans planned to bomb a certain British town. Churchill had a problem; if they warned the town and evacuated them, the Germans would know their code had been broken. If they said nothing, they could use this advantage at a major point in the invasion, but it would mean sacrificing the town and everyone in it.

What would you do?

Churchill ordered that no one be told, thus sacrificing the town. However, this story isn't exactly true, more of an urban legend, but it serves to illustrate the point. It's a call I would make though, sacrificing a town for a chance at winning the war.

Hopefully, that might address your question. If it does not, feel free to come up with another one. Oh, and would be appreciated if you would answer mine (or this one).
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:36   Link #691
Elestia
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Took a while, since I went quote diving to make some points.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
No, you can't compare anime physics of a sci-fi show to reality. But you can apply real world psychology to a show that is trying to portray human psyche and emotions realistically. Ever watch the anime Monster? A lot of the plot depends on the natural human reaction and psychology to drive the plot.
I agree. We use those analysis techniques to help us understand how and why people react the way they do, which is the main driving force behind the study of psychology. But you are taking them one step further and then claiming that is what will happen in as fact. When there is no evidence in the show, you bring up evidence from reality to support your speculation. You are grasping for straws to support a speculation when you can't find any proof in the anime.That's where I have problem with your methods.


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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Then you don't know people very well. I know plenty of others who are quite content and happy with lone wolf lives. Others aren't really bothered about the duties they have to perform, which no one will thank them for. There really are all types of people in the world.
Really? Cause I don't know many people who share the same situation that MGs do. You must have some amazing supernatural friends.

People who want to be alone, want to be alone? Wow, I would have never guess that. It must hold the same fo- oh wait, nevermind. Mami-san wanted friends, she wasn't a lone wolf who abstained companionship. Mami-san was bothered deeply that she had all her free time dedicated to witch hunting.

And yes, there are people in the world that are exactly what you described, but I state that Mami does not fall into any of those categories.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
The problem is not that you don't believe she's 100% happy; she's not, and that much should be obvious. The whole point to this debate that spiraled out, was that Mami was glad for her second life. Watch that scene again in episode 3. Madoka asks what Mami's wish was, which prompts some silence, and prompts Madoka to backtrack and Mami to elaborate.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
No. Because happiness is dependent upon you. Mami was happy after a fashion, because she got to live, and became happier when Madoka was planning to stick with her. Kyoko is happy, because she adjusted her viewpoint.
*cough*

No, the main discussion spiraled out is because that you claimed that Mami was happy with her life because she was saved. But she wasn't happy her current life being a magical girl either. Then you try to blur the distinction between being glad she was saved as the same as being happy as the same thing with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
So, being glad does not mean being happy. Hmmm... let's check a thesaurus here, and see if the two words have incredibly similar meanings, by any chance...

And again my scene where Mami confesses happens at the very moments before she died, the scene that you point to doesn't hold the same weight to what she says at the beginning of the episode. She didn't regret choosing to live, but she did regret in becoming a MG, and at that time she didn't know she would be contracted into being a MG at the time. She was choosing to be less miserable, not less happy.

4:34 of Episode 3

Mami: Dieing back there would have been worse than living like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Note that she's not saying she wouldn't have become an MG if she had a choice. That says a lot to me, because if she really felt the MG life was so horrible, she would be like Homura, not wanting others to get involved, and she would have siad: "If I had the opportunity to choose, I probably wouldn't have."
I'm pretty sure that's saying she didn't want to be a magical girl, although she did want more time to make a wish. But was there a time where she said she wanted to be a MG?


16:33 of Episode 3

Mami: There is nothing good about being a Magical Puella


And no the reason why she didn't become like Homura, was because she wanted friends. Friends she could relate to and friends who can share the burden with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
So, even as an MG, Mami doesn't consider her life that bad. At least not bad enough to say she'd rather not be an MG, and wouldn't want others involved. Hence, she's not in the pit of despair you might like us to think.
GG Subs
16:04 Episode 3
*Mami let goes of Madoka's hand after being praised*
16:05
Mami: It won't be easy
16:07:
Mami:You'll get hurt, won't have time for dates or friends
16:13
*more Madoka aspiring to be like Mami*
16:18
*Mami stops walking*
16:19
Mami: I'm not someone to dream about.
16:24
Mami: I'm just being cool by pushing myself too hard.
16:26
Mami: Even if I'm having a hard time, or having a hard time, I can't talk to anyone. All I can do is cry by myself.
16:33
Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI

She says some pretty darn depressing stuff who someone who isn't in despair. So in conclusion make the following statements:

1) Mami was glad she was saved
2) Mami is "miserable" with her life as a MG.
3) Mami's life in general, prior to meeting Madoka or Sayaka has been a miserable life.
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:38   Link #692
SagaraSouske
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverwyrm View Post
Hypothetical question based on several assumptions but I'd like you to answer it.

Assuming these witches would cause greater and greater damage left alone. Assuming young girls were the only ones who could receive this magic and ability to see to combat them. What would you propose would be the best course of action?

I guess, is the means Kyubey contracts your problem, or the system itself?
Assuming witch left alone will wipe out humanity, and young girls are the only option. Then make everything clear up front and ask for volunteers. If not enough volunteers, form an institution from governments and draft laws to allow drafting young girls as soldiers for war.

Under those assumptions, the problem I have is QB's methods, and not the system.

However, those are not my assumptions and I question both the system and QB's methods.
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Old 2011-02-22, 20:54   Link #693
fukarming
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About the whole happiness thing, it is too broad to use the word happy/ unhappy. Let's put in some numbers.

+100 means living in utopia, 0 means neutral, -100 means living in hell

When do you think people would choose suicide over a miserable life? Everyone is different but I assume it is somewhere between -50 to -80?

For mami, I believe she is around -20, Kyoko +20, Homura - too little information, Sayaka - -50 (She is going "crazy")

Let's put in what you think where they are and then the discussion would be more constructive
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Old 2011-02-22, 21:01   Link #694
Kaijo
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Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
I agree. We use those analysis techniques to help us understand how and why people react the way they do, which is the main driving force behind the study of psychology. But you are taking them one step further and then claiming that is what will happen in as fact. When there is no evidence in the show, you bring up evidence from reality to support your speculation. You are grasping for straws to support a speculation when you can't find any proof in the anime.That's where I have problem with your methods.
Oh, I never claimed it was absolute. I only brought out that reasoning to show that it was possible that Kyoko might not have had any better of a life if she didn't make the wish. With or without the wish, it is likely Kyoko's life would have still sucked, and could have sucked in even greater ways had the wish not been made.

Quote:
Really? Cause I don't know many people who share the same situation that MGs do. You must have some amazing supernatural friends.
Ever thank the garbageman when he comes around? Not many do.

Quote:
People who want to be alone, want to be alone? Wow, I would have never guess that. It must hold the same fo- oh wait, nevermind. Mami-san wanted friends, she wasn't a lone wolf who abstained companionship. Mami-san was bothered deeply that she had all her free time dedicated to witch hunting.

And yes, there are people in the world that are exactly what you described, but I state that Mami does not fall into any of those categories.
There are people who can get along fine being alone or in social situations. So being alone in and of itself does not lend one to automatic depression. You might feel that Mami doesn't fit into these categories, but considering she doesn't regret her life, you'd have to be wary of making that assumption.

Quote:
No, the main discussion spiraled out is because that you claimed that Mami was happy with her life because she was saved. But she wasn't happy her current life being a magical girl either. Then you try to blur the distinction between being glad she was saved as the same as being happy as the same thing with this:
I never claimed she was 100% happy. Nothing there contradicts, as what you might be implying. I think she's pretty average, myself. It's possible to be average and be satisfied, which is a kind of happiness.

Quote:
And again my scene where Mami confesses happens at the very moments before she died, the scene that you point to doesn't hold the same weight to what she says at the beginning of the episode. She didn't regret choosing to live, but she did regret in becoming a MG, and at that time she didn't know she would be contracted into being a MG at the time. She was choosing to be less miserable, not less happy.

4:34 of Episode 3

Mami: Dieing back there would have been worse than living like this.

I'm pretty sure that's saying she didn't want to be a magical girl, although she did want more time to make a wish. But was there a time where she said she wanted to be a MG?
Eh, it's a job. Many humans go to work at places that they aren't too thrilled about, but they get through the day. Could always be better, but could always be worse. That's the feeling I get from her.

Here's the important part thought: If she really felt the life was so bad, she wouldn't be trying to pull Madoka and Sayaka into it. That's what Homura is doing, which is a clear contrast. Mami also didn't state that if given the choice (as in, not currently dying so have time to think about it), that she wouldn't become an MG.

With Homura as a contrast, you can see a clear difference in outlook and ideals. The fact that Mami is not Homura, tells me she is much more okay with her situation.

Quote:
Mami:THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT BEING A PUELLA MAGI

She says some pretty darn depressing stuff who someone who isn't in despair.
Which can be explained by someone pushing another away as a last ditch effort(she's really going to stick with me? It couldn't be... I have to make sure...). Or making sure that Madoka would know all the bad shit that could happen, so she was going in with eyes wide open. Or one of many other explanations that would not contradict her already apparent feelings on the matter. So if there are multiple explanations, why cling to the one that contradicts earlier feelings and statements?

Hell, I have a job that leaves me tired each day, and it would be nice not to have to work so I'd have more time to go out with friends, or make new friends, or go out on dates... but I'm not upset at my life, either, since I make good money. I suspect many people here are similar in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Assuming witch left alone will wipe out humanity, and young girls are the only option. Then make everything clear up front and ask for volunteers. If not enough volunteers, form an institution from governments and draft laws to allow drafting young girls as soldiers for war.

Under those assumptions, the problem I have is QB's methods, and not the system.

However, those are not my assumptions and I question both the system and QB's methods.
General: (Raises an eyebrow at the two girls in his office) "So, let me get this straight... we are under attack from magical creatures that most people can't see, and yet you have this invisible creature on your shoulder that only some young girls can see, who can give said young girls magical powers to fight these invisible magic creatures, and you want me to help you organize a government department dedicated to finding and training young girls into being... Puella Magi did you say?"

Madoka and Sayaka nod firmly.

General: "Right." *coughs* "Well, I'll start a file on that, but sadly we don't have the funds to create something like that right now. But I'm sure you and your friend and your invisible magical creature can handle this. I have faith in you!"
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Old 2011-02-22, 21:15   Link #695
Scrooge McDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
in addition, he reminded sayaka when she was alone in the barrier before mami arrived that he can make her MG right away. also, when kyoko & sayaka were fighting, he said that only way to stop them was for madoka to become MG. not to mention the sole reason that he allows madoka to accompany sayaka every night is so that she can also become MG (& that is not speculation either; that little telepathic talk was proof enough) hell, he even tried sayaka to help madoka make the decision to become MG in order to fight off kyoko. hmm... QB also called only madoka for help in the 1st ep. mami certainly wasnt expecting company judging from her expression. er...this list can keep going lol but the main point has been made by now: guy is choosing the contractees with precision.
So he persists in recruiting people. Hardly what I'd call "manipulating events". Unless you want to argue that he somehow he also created all those circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
if he keeps singing the same tune, obviously suspicion will rise. to give the illusion of free choice, you cant keep on asking repeatedly. experience is on QB's side.
So when characters are acting against your conceived notion of them, they are being deceitful.
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Old 2011-02-23, 01:44   Link #696
Deconstructor
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
So he persists in recruiting people. Hardly what I'd call "manipulating events". Unless you want to argue that he somehow he also created all those circumstances.
Ah, I don't think Kyubey is manipulating events.
He knows tragic events will happen merely if he continues to campaign Madoka to be a magical girl. Such is the world Kyubey introduces Madoka to... Puella Magi fighting to the brink with evil witches.

In addition, he may be operating under a set of rules that restrict him from doing anything to persuade Madoka directly. Suppose Kyubey could only approach people, offer them the contract, and explain that offer - nothing more. The only way he can do anything to persuade Madoka is to hang around and show her the terror of witches as part of his "explanation."

Or, maybe he can recruit others that would help persuade Madoka. Such as Sayaka.

Too sleepy to continue. I hope other people will try and rationalize their gut feeling that Kyubey is evil.

Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-02-23 at 02:27. Reason: Adding reason from other thread.
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Old 2011-02-23, 02:10   Link #697
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
What i mean is by comparing to normal statistics for suicide rate from explainable causes in a normal society. The unexplainable suicides are generally the minority. When you have a normal person that do not suffer depression, have a successful life and normal family suddenly suicide, then it is hard to explain. If witches were rampant, such occurances were sure to rise. It such unexplainable suicide happens to frequently, then society will notice.
Right,now I get where you're getting at,thanks.


Quote:
If you want me to strictly stick to the context of the world the show is in, where witch 'possibly' always existed, then one can say MGs 'possibly' always existed and the reason for them not escalate into a larger issue that society will notice is due to the MGs limiting the effect of the witches. This I do not dispute.
You pretty much anticipated what I was going to say!Ok,point taken.

Quote:
Several people seem to misunderstand my point. I am not saying to leave the witches alone and let them propagate and continue to kill people. I am saying the current MG system is not a good solution to the problem. It is not one made with best intention in mind. QB does not have the welfare of humans in his best interest. He is just presenting info to the MG candidates in that manner to entice them into contracting with him.
Right,I have more meta reasons to think of this,notably the manga tagline about not being able to fight darkness with darkness and needing light to do it.Because right now I'm not seeing much light from QBs system.

Quote:
I am also speculating like others that the problem may have been formed in the first place to create the MG system to generate grief seeds. Whatever or where ever QB comes from, he either caused witches to come into existence in the first place and then start offering wishes to contract MGs as a solution or MGs turn into witches and he is creating an vicious cycle to generate grief seeds.
Well,I can't deny him "eating" grief seeds looks suspecious and I'd have no problem with the story going there.
Right after episode 7 came out and hearing Kyoko talk bout the need for balance between hope and despair I started thinking QB was just there to make sure that balance is kept,grief seeds weren't what he was interested in.
Problem I started having with this is when I watched episode 7 again and I heard Homura mention that he's making miracles happen,and selling them.Miracles pretty much go against any kind of balance there is so it looks like things are more complicated than that.
Which leads to me to doing all kinds of different speculating that I won't post here,I guess that while QB doing all this to get grief seeds is definatly one possibility,it seems just too "easy" and I don't get much fun speculating that way so I look for alternatives,but again I'd have no problem with the show going that route.

edit:

Quote:
So he persists in recruiting people. Hardly what I'd call "manipulating events". Unless you want to argue that he somehow he also created all those circumstances.
I already discussed this with kaijo quite a bit after episode 6 but I still stand by what I said back then,the only reason Madoka showed up at the Sayaka/Kyoko fight in episode 6 was because QB went out and got her,so he created the situation "Madoka sees Kyoko and Sayaka fight" in the hope that after seeing Sayaka on the verge of death she'd decide to become a MG to save her life.Things didn't go as planned but I still believe that was his original intent when going to get Madoka.

I remember what Kaijo said,what I'm interested in is your points.
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Last edited by totoum; 2011-02-23 at 02:45.
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Old 2011-02-23, 04:36   Link #698
Sol Falling
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Edit: lol, okay this top part was basically self-advertising. I'll leave it here though. I finished the speculation I mentioned before and have posted in the thread appropriate for it. In terms of some ideas/assumptions about Kyubey which emerged from that thinking which will inform any further posts I make discussing him, here are two hooks for you guys to go check out my theory:

- What if Kyubey is the cause/origin of WalpurgisNacht due to all the darkness/Grief Seeds he is accumulating?
- What if Kyubey's interest in Madoka is because she is the only Puella Magi candidate who has the potential to contain all that negative energy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Assuming witch left alone will wipe out humanity, and young girls are the only option. Then make everything clear up front and ask for volunteers. If not enough volunteers, form an institution from governments and draft laws to allow drafting young girls as soldiers for war.

Under those assumptions, the problem I have is QB's methods, and not the system.

However, those are not my assumptions and I question both the system and QB's methods.
With regards to all the talk of Kyubey's "methods" here, I have a question:
What is exactly the cause of Sayaka's suffering right now? Here are two options for you:
- the fact that she has been made into a shiny rock/soulless zombie, OR
- the fact that she knows about it?

With regards to Kyubey’s methods, the first is something unchangeable (an inherent part of the ‘becoming a mahou shoujo’ process) whereas the second isn’t. In terms of how this knowledge actually affects Mahou Shoujo’s survivability, it is actually completely a benefit, so we cannot say that Kyubey not telling them has made the job more dangerous.

However, let us put this further question forward: if, from this point forward, Kyubey were to notify all prospective Puella Magis that the transformation process involves having their soul be extracted, how exactly would this impact the lives of a general Puella Magi?

- Well, first, rather than preventing anything, future girls who decide to become Puella Magi anyway might develop a mental block limiting their own happiness;
- and two, people who already are magical girls and are now forced to discover this have the potential to become as miserable as Sayaka (though that's not likely, but maybe like Kyouko they'll probably have at least a (mostly pointless) initial shock over it).

Is there in fact any benefit to changing Kyubey’s “method” of withholding this information?

Of course, there is the possibility that Kyubey is also withholding other information, the lack of knowledge of which perhaps does in fact impact Magical Girls’ potential happiness or survivability negatively. However, as the only payment promised is a ‘wish’ which should be considered carefully, and as Mahou Shoujos are indeed directly told that the fighting can be very dangerous, I do not in fact see any further warnings which would not already be covered in these categories already. The general and most important information for most magical girls is certainly already offered before a contract already. Unless, of course, the 'information' you're imagining are ideas to the effect that the system is in really working against them (i.e. that their wishes will deliberately be twisted poorly, that they could turn into witches, etc. etc.), but that would fundamentally change the premise here and presently lies in the realm of speculation.

I think no advantage or explanation yet has been given for why Kyubey not talking about the Soul Gem is a bad thing. Most people are instead confusing that with the fact that the Soul Gem is taken out at all, which many gut instincts/reactions seem to scream out to be terrifying or evil. However, at least in the show thus far, both Kyubey and Homura have explained this to be simply an inevitable/natural part of wish granting and becoming a mahou shoujo. From an objective perspective, you could basically say that moving the soul into a Soul Gem doesn't really affect anything (or is even a good thing). From a personal perspective, many people might in fact be better off or prefer it if they didn't know in the first place. So unless it is true that Soul Gems darkening will make you a witch and send you to an eternal hell in Kyubey's bowels (or other such negative effects), then in the end there will not have been very much wrong at all with Kyubey keeping this fact a secret.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
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God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-02-23 at 05:01.
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Old 2011-02-23, 05:53   Link #699
garbage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Contradicts with Mami's statement that she was glad for her second chance of life

You don't quite know what effects poverty has on a family, do you?

"Levels of stress in the family have also been shown to correlate with economic circumstances. Studies during economic recessions indicate that job loss and subsequent poverty are associated with violence in families, including child and elder abuse. Poor families experience much more stress than middle-class families. Besides financial uncertainty, these families are more likely to be exposed to series of negative events and “bad luck,” including illness, depression, eviction, job loss, criminal victimization, and family death. Parents who experience hard economic times may become excessively punitive and erratic, issuing demands backed by insults, threats, and corporal punishment."

Oh yeah, sounds so much better than what happened. I actually view Kyoko as being in a no-win scenario, almost similar to Sayaka. The only difference being Kyoko was screwed no matter what happened(well, almost, if she had just kept her mouth shut...), while Sayaka does still have a chance to claim some happiness... if she gets over her own issues.
Quote:
You're more than welcome to look up psychology if you like. And while it is speculation, psychology generally holds that people work up to a snapping point. I've posted above about the well known effects of poverty on a family, so what follows is simple extrapolation.

So speculation, yes, but based on the real world.

REALLY NOW! and you know this for a FACT? really you make it sound that the wish was the best thing that could have happened to kyoko and her family. wow

then may i ask you this. Are you poor? have you ever been poor? have you ever been hungry? have you ever been in a situation where you cant think on anything else but were to get the next meal? well I HAVE, I experience it first hand. in fact a lot of people i know is in that situation. you think my mom is on the way to butchering my bro & sisters? you think my friends are??? WOW. you think what happened to kyoko's family is better than what it was before? DOUBLE WOW

the only reason i'm able to do this, watch anime and use the internet is because of my hardworking mom and my family. I myself have been working and earning since early teen years while studying. And that's exactly it, family is the most important thing for a lot of us. we can go hungry at times that doesn't mean we just give up and suddenly START KILLING OURSELVES! in fact we go on because our family is there. and we still have our REASON FOR LIVING, hard as it may be.
even if we are in a poor community, in a poor city in a third world country. we can still be KIND, LOVING & HAPPY!

And since you're so into statistics & studies then why don't you look up the happiness index statistics for that matter. you'll be surprised how some third world countries are so much more happier than those in rich countries.

And what about kyoko's father & family for that matter. Again he is much more the victim than kyoko is. Everything was FORCED onto him, he never got any say in the matter. he never got any contract nor a wish. So where is the justice, the balance? And QB and his wish "interpretation" or whatever you call it just invalidated his whole life existence, the meaning of his life. no wonder he cracked up. He became a pastor why? to be rich ? famous? to always have food?NO, (because definitely there are better ways than this,if he really wanted that) he wanted to be heard and help people to change people's life for the better (or at least he thought), what he got was a bunch of automatons brainwashed to attend his service. In fact kyoko didn't even have to tell him about the wish. it could have happened like this :

on a certain service: Pastor made a slip and said a bad word during sermon > congregation just kept on smiling and listening. Pastor apologized but thought its kinda strange, but didn't mind it. congregation continue attending.

next service : he made a controversial sermon, one he knew is not so popular > congregation applauded without a single objection or even a single question. Pastor now has this funny feeling. congregation keeps on attending

next service : Pastor decided to test, he mentioned something totally against the teaching of their church but put it in joke form ( like it's okay to rape etc.) > congregation applauded wholeheartedly and agreed. they didn't even think it's a joke. congregation keeps on attending. Pastor now starting to loose his mind ( what the hell is happening?)

next service : Pastor just babbled nonsense , read a couple of comic books during sermon > congregation kept on applauding his "wisdom" : congregation keeps on attending . THE WISH PRACTICALLY GUARANTEES IT REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER IS DONE DURING SERVICE.

last service : pastor already out of his mind , hurled expletives F*CK ALL OF YOU@(*$#)*^!)#)#%*)%@*)# t, )(#&*)^*(%$)*%@)*%*$#) and so on and so forth.
> congregation kept on smiling , applauding and THANKING HIM > it is clear to the pastor they will still attend next service. Pastor broke. he would never conduct a service again. it's useless.

some time after, seeing whats happening, kyoko's confesses to her father what's really happening. this is the last straw. (why would my daughter do such a thing , why would she destroy me?) he went on to kill everyone in the family. but see even if kyoko never opened her mouth. the pastor is already broken.

sorry for being emotional, but yeah that hits to the bone we don't need no well to do guy from well to do country telling us we're fucked up and miserable because we're poor, and to hell with all their psychological "studies"
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Old 2011-02-23, 09:12   Link #700
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post


With regards to all the talk of Kyubey's "methods" here, I have a question:
What is exactly the cause of Sayaka's suffering right now? Here are two options for you:
- the fact that she has been made into a shiny rock/soulless zombie, OR
- the fact that she knows about it?

With regards to Kyubey’s methods, the first is something unchangeable (an inherent part of the ‘becoming a mahou shoujo’ process) whereas the second isn’t.
Really now? Kyuubey actually talks like it's a choice to make a soul gem like it is. So, no.

Quote:
In terms of how this knowledge actually affects Mahou Shoujo’s survivability, it is actually completely a benefit, so we cannot say that Kyubey not telling them has made the job more dangerous.
of course we can. it's like not telling someone he can only dies if someone touch his right eye.

He'll have no clue to protect the right eye. IT is pretty obvious MG would fight very differently if they knew the soul gem is their sole weakness.

Quote:
- Well, first, rather than preventing anything, future girls who decide to become Puella Magi anyway might develop a mental block limiting their own happiness;
Or maybe they'd actually know in what they are getting into, and so wouldn't mind.
Quote:
- and two, people who already are magical girls and are now forced to discover this have the potential to become as miserable as Sayaka (though that's not likely, but maybe like Kyouko they'll probably have at least a (mostly pointless) initial shock over it).
your point?
Quote:
snipped usual speculations saying nothing at all
Quote:
I think no advantage or explanation yet has been given for why Kyubey not talking about the Soul Gem is a bad thing. Most people are instead confusing that with the fact that the Soul Gem is taken out at all, which many gut instincts/reactions seem to scream out to be terrifying or evil. However, at least in the show thus far, both Kyubey and Homura have explained this to be simply an inevitable/natural part of wish granting and becoming a mahou shoujo.
No they haven't. Kyuubey said it was to make magical girl *more* effective (as in, they could be less effective magical girls without it).

Quote:
From an objective perspective, you could basically say that moving the soul into a Soul Gem doesn't really affect anything (or is even a good thing).
You could say it's not a bad thing if they were aware of the fact and chose it. In hte present situation, they don't know to protect it so it doesn't help half as much as it could, and they have no choice about it either.

Quote:
From a personal perspective, many people might in fact be better off or prefer it if they didn't know in the first place. So unless it is true that Soul Gems darkening will make you a witch and send you to an eternal hell in Kyubey's bowels (or other such negative effects), then in the end there will not have been very much wrong at all with Kyubey keeping this fact a secret.
Of course there is, like the fact kyuubey collect/eat grief seeds which are the witch's soul/egg, and witch eat MG. So we do wonder what could be in the grief seeds.

There is also the simple fact that a MG that has her body being destroyed won't be able to heal without the help of kyuubey when if they knew about it they could have contigencies and so on.

Basically, the only reason for kyuubey to withold the truth (as we have seen kyuubey doesn't care if the MG is happy at all) is because a°) he can't be bothered to do the usual ranting about MG being stupid or b°) because soul gems being what they are might clue the MG in about other, darker stuff.
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