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Old 2011-02-23, 01:45   Link #441
Scrooge McDuck
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Yes, I think you follow my logic now.
Very well. What you propose is a possibility, but I don't find it convincing because:

1. It's not a very dependable method considering that its effectiveness highly depends on, well, everything. Or do you think that Kyubey actively influence the circumstances surrounding Madoka?

2. I can't find a point of distinction that separates this method from what other magical familiars in other shows do, or the progression in any other shows featuring an inconvenient truth. What makes this one torture and the others not?
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Old 2011-02-23, 01:59   Link #442
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
1. It's not a very dependable method considering that its effectiveness highly depends on, well, everything. Or do you think that Kyubey actively influence the circumstances surrounding Madoka?
No, I do not think Kyubey is that powerful.
In fact, I think he is very limited in what he can do. Kyubey himself said he must obey some "rules." My theory works best when the relevant rule is as follows:

1) Kyubey cannot directly influence his contractor's choice. However, he can recruit whoever he wants.

Under this very restrictive system, all Kyubey can do is show up and hope that people die around Madoka, causing her enough guilt. He can recruit others (such as Sayaka) in the hopes that they influence Madoka's decision. Of course, the rules are completely unknown, so this is speculation. All we know is that some "rules" exist.

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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
2. I can't find a point of distinction that separates this method from what other magical familiars in other shows do, or the progression in any other shows featuring an inconvenient truth. What makes this one torture and the others not?
Good point.

Well, the mascots in other shows consider human emotion in their pleas, and show emotions themselves. Kyubey is more like "Do you wish to become a magical girl? Press 1 for yes, 2 for no, and 3 to learn more."

Also, the familiars in other shows would probably be very sad to see people dying (if their clients refused their offer). Kyubey has shown no remorse... frankly, no emotions at all.
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Old 2011-02-23, 02:11   Link #443
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Good point.

Well, the mascots in other shows consider human emotion in their pleas, and show emotions themselves. Kyubey is more like "Do you wish to become a magical girl? Press 1 for yes, 2 for no, and 3 to learn more."

Also, the familiars in other shows would probably be very sad to see people dying (if their clients refused their offer). Kyubey has shown no remorse... frankly, no emotions at all.
So the point of distinction is that Kyubey does not possess the same axis of morality the other have. But does that necessarily mean that he intentionally causes distress? Does that completely eliminate the possibility that he is simply trying to do his job (albeit dispassionately) of recruiting girls when shit happens beyond his control or prediction?
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Old 2011-02-23, 02:24   Link #444
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I was just thinking... Kyubey sais Homura was an irregularity because, among other things, he couldn't predict her actions. This implies he somehow is able to predict what other magical girls/potential magical girls are going to do.

If he does have such ability, then manipulating events and situations to serve his interests wouldn't take any sort of super powers, just some clever ideas and some sweet talking.

I do believe he operates this way. I think there's already a good amount of clues pointing that way.
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Old 2011-02-23, 02:28   Link #445
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
So the point of distinction is that Kyubey does not possess the same axis of morality the other have. But does that necessarily mean that he intentionally causes distress?
I do not think Kyubey intentionally causes distress.
I think Kyubey intends for the distress to follow him where ever he goes, so his clients will have something driving them to become Puella Magi. However, he is not in direct control of witches; he just hopes they attack.

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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Does that completely eliminate the possibility that he is simply trying to do his job (albeit dispassionately) of recruiting girls when shit happens beyond his control or prediction?
Well, if bad stuff does not happen, (unlikely, but possible) then there is no reason to suggest that Kyubey staying with Madoka would persuade Madoka further. Since Kyubey cannot directly persuade Madoka, all he can do, if no witches attack, is hang around with Madoka and hope the guilt of protecting humanity overtakes her. But after the first few days, I don't think Madoka will be changing her mind.

/retiringtobed
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Old 2011-02-23, 02:58   Link #446
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Well, if bad stuff does not happen, (unlikely, but possible) then there is no reason to suggest that Kyubey staying with Madoka would persuade Madoka further. Since Kyubey cannot directly persuade Madoka, all he can do, if no witches attack, is hang around with Madoka and hope the guilt of protecting humanity overtakes her. But after the first few days, I don't think Madoka will be changing her mind.
Ah, that's not what I meant with the question. Hmm, let's do it this way: I'm going to present a scenario. Please tell me whether such scenario is plausible and if not, why.

1. Kyubey, sensing a great potential in Madoka, wants to recruit her.

2. He knows that with the knowledge he presents her would come distress, but hey, its his task. (Note that this doesn't mean that he wants Madoka to be distressed. Magical creatures from other shows obviously knows that they are bringing distress; they are recruiting girls to fight monsters, after all)

3. On her way to contact Madoka, he's attacked by Homura. Desperate, he establishes a telephatic contact.

4. He presents the term and information about being a magical girl to Madoka. Madoka is actually wiling. Things are going great until...

5. Shit happens that he couldn't predict. Madoka becomes unwilling.

6. Sayaka is willing, so Kyubey recruits her. (note that after this point, Kyubey's interaction with Madoka is minimal as he stays with Sayaka)

7. Kyubey stays with Sayaka as part of her initiation. Meanwhile he still wishes that Madoka would change her mind because of her potential.


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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
If he does have such ability, then manipulating events and situations to serve his interests wouldn't take any sort of super powers, just some clever ideas and some sweet talking. .
Assuming that he indeed has some sort of psychic ability to know what the girls going to do, don't you think that he'd do a better job at putting himself and the whole magical girl thing in a better light? Avoiding the whole Soul Gem revelation, for example.
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Old 2011-02-23, 03:33   Link #447
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Assuming that he indeed has some sort of psychic ability to know what the girls going to do, don't you think that he'd do a better job at putting himself and the whole magical girl thing in a better light? Avoiding the whole Soul Gem revelation, for example.
I doubt it. The soul gem thing was something pretty unexpected, something Madoka just did without thinking. There's no way he could have foreseen that, even if he did have psychic powers (which is very likely, all things considering). Besides, in order to put himself in a better light, he would need a better understanding of human values. For example, he understands enough to know the soul gem thing would upset the girls, but not enough to know why. That's why his lack of empathy and concern is getting more and more obvious. It's not the he's careless about it, it's just the he doesn't entirely know how troubling and upsetting his behaviour can be.
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Old 2011-02-23, 03:43   Link #448
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I doubt it. The soul gem thing was something pretty unexpected, something Madoka just did without thinking. There's no way he could have foreseen that, even if he did have psychic powers (which is very likely, all things considering).
So it's psychic, but it is limited in power? To what extent do you think this limitation applies? And could you provide concrete examples of when you think the power is used?

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Besides, in order to put himself in a better light, he would need a better understanding of human values. For example, he understands enough to know the soul gem thing would upset the girls, but not enough to know why.
Well, he simply needs to avoid anything that would be upsetting, even without knowing why.
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Old 2011-02-23, 07:07   Link #449
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Manga confirmed that Kyuube is fairy. (not devil, witch or whatever.
The thing doesn't change is, he is still bitch.
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Old 2011-02-23, 07:34   Link #450
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まずわ魔法。この世界にわ魔法少女をスカウトする妖精がいるの。その妖精と契約した少女は魔力の源ソウルヅ ェムを生み出す。

"Firstly, about magic. In this world, Fairies scout for magical girls. The source of magical power for the girls that have contracted with the Fairies originate from the Soul Gem."

This would immediately have us put to a place where we seriously need to question about the degree of autonomy for Kyuubee, if we go by conventional usage of Fairies.
@MeoTwister5: I want volume 2 very badly so all of a sudden.
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Old 2011-02-23, 07:39   Link #451
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Well fairy is a very broad term usable to define a creature of magic, so it doesn't mean he's a fairy in a distinct mythological sense.
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Old 2011-02-23, 09:15   Link #452
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a nice point is it seems that all the power of the MG comes from the soul if we take that literally.

Basically, no need to contract in order to become MG.
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Old 2011-02-23, 09:59   Link #453
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Well fairy is a very broad term usable to define a creature of magic, so it doesn't mean he's a fairy in a distinct mythological sense.
Even if it does fairy often portrayed as... well, as QB.

Fairy:
Quote:
In particular, folklore describes how to prevent the fairies from stealing babies and substituting changelings, and abducting older people as well.
P.S. Fairies mean others like QB, but in anime QB speaks almost as if only he can contract girls when Kyoko asked about Homura's contract. Others are outside Japan?
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Old 2011-02-23, 10:20   Link #454
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
a nice point is it seems that all the power of the MG comes from the soul if we take that literally.

Basically, no need to contract in order to become MG.
On the other hand, Kyubey's rationale for creating the Soul Gem is that it diminishes battle hazards and reduces mortal injuries, not that it's needed to become a magical girl. Though I would question how they would cleanse their corrupted soul post-magic usage without the Gem. Or how one could even access those magic power in the first place without the contract.

In any case, that fairy status doesn't really help us in determining Kyubey's intention. After all, one doesn't need to be the Devil to be malevolent, and faeries are actually often depicted as quite cruel.

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P.S. Fairies mean others like QB, but in anime QB speaks almost as if only he can contract girls when Kyoko asked about Homura's contract. Others are outside Japan?
Well, Sol Falling has a theory in another thread that Kyubey is actually a hive organism.
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Old 2011-02-23, 12:57   Link #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
a nice point is it seems that all the power of the MG comes from the soul if we take that literally.

Basically, no need to contract in order to become MG.
But can a human actually pull that power from their soul on their own? I don't see any humans who have done so, yet, and you'd think at least some have.

But some of us have come to the conclusion that Kyube uses some power from the girl's soul to make her wish, which would explain why a girl's special power is related to her wish. Without that contract, there would be no wish... and thus no special power. Also, without the soul in a gem, a girl is considerably more vulnerable; they are walking into a shootout without a bulletproof vest. One good hit, and they are toast.

On the Fairy note, I wouldn't read too much into specifics. I'm leaning on the "it's just a way to note a magical creature" side currently. There have been many fairies in stories, none of which stole babies, both western shows and anime (and video games).

However, what this does confirm, is that Kyube is not a devil nor an angel, which would be the extreme of magical creatures on the morality spectrum. It also lets us know there are more of him around, which implies that the witch problem is wide-spread.
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Old 2011-02-23, 15:22   Link #456
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Ah, that's not what I meant with the question. Hmm, let's do it this way: I'm going to present a scenario. Please tell me whether such scenario is plausible and if not, why.

1. Kyubey, sensing a great potential in Madoka, wants to recruit her.

2. He knows that with the knowledge he presents her would come distress, but hey, its his task. (Note that this doesn't mean that he wants Madoka to be distressed. Magical creatures from other shows obviously knows that they are bringing distress; they are recruiting girls to fight monsters, after all)

3. On her way to contact Madoka, he's attacked by Homura. Desperate, he establishes a telephatic contact.

4. He presents the term and information about being a magical girl to Madoka. Madoka is actually wiling. Things are going great until...

5. Shit happens that he couldn't predict. Madoka becomes unwilling.

6. Sayaka is willing, so Kyubey recruits her. (note that after this point, Kyubey's interaction with Madoka is minimal as he stays with Sayaka)

7. Kyubey stays with Sayaka as part of her initiation. Meanwhile he still wishes that Madoka would change her mind because of her potential.
The first six scenarios are plausible. In number 7, I think Kyubey is not bound to "guide" newly created Puella Magi, and can leave Sayaka if he so chooses. If number 5 happens, all Kyubey can do is hang around Madoka for a while until she becomes willing once more.

At number 6, I would also like to note that Kyubey can sense potential in number 1. Therefore, he knows how powerful (or weak) Sayaka can become. Perhaps Kyubey foresaw that Sayaka would be in danger if she chose to become a Puella Magi, and is trying to tempt Madoka into wishing to protect her friend. Summing that up, Kyubey is using Sayaka as bait.
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Old 2011-02-23, 15:46   Link #457
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Manga confirmed that Kyuube is fairy. (not devil, witch or whatever.
The thing doesn't change is, he is still bitch.
Fairy can be demons, demoted angels, pagan deities, spirits of the dead, etc... there are so many different beliefs, it just makes QB's nature more ambiguous than it already was. In any case, I agree, he's still a bitch.

BTW, I wonder whose POV this manga panel is? Is it QB's? Homura's maybe? I wonder....
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Old 2011-02-23, 15:46   Link #458
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
The first six scenarios are plausible. In number 7, I think Kyubey is not bound to "guide" newly created Puella Magi, and can leave Sayaka if he so chooses. If number 5 happens, all Kyubey can do is hang around Madoka for a while until she becomes willing once more.
I am not insinuating that he is bound by some rules to stay with Sayaka. But wouldn't you say that staying to supervise a newbie a perfectly valid reason?

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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
At number 6, I would also like to note that Kyubey can sense potential in number 1. Therefore, he knows how powerful (or weak) Sayaka can become. Perhaps Kyubey foresaw that Sayaka would be in danger if she chose to become a Puella Magi, and is trying to tempt Madoka into wishing to protect her friend. Summing that up, Kyubey is using Sayaka as bait.
A possibility. But isn't it possible that Kyubey recruits Sayaka because she's already a candidate anyway and she happens to have a wish? It's not like Kyubey can control when exactly Sayaka would present her wish.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Fairy can be demons, demoted angels, pagan deities, spirits of the dead, etc... there are so many different beliefs, it just makes QB's nature more ambiguous than it already was.
Well, 妖精 (yousei) is more specific, though. Generally is not used to describe demons, demoted angels or spirits of the dead.
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Last edited by Scrooge McDuck; 2011-02-23 at 15:59.
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Old 2011-02-23, 17:10   Link #459
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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
I am not insinuating that he is bound by some rules to stay with Sayaka. But wouldn't you say that staying to supervise a newbie a perfectly valid reason?
Yes, your reason is logical. However, it also grants Kyubey an excuse to manipulate Sayaka: he can explain the aspects of Puella Magi in whatever methods he chooses, such as torturing Sayaka to explain why Soul Gems are more efficient.

Using what little freedom he has, Kyubey can use Sayaka's lack of experience as a reason to command her. Even though Kyubey suggested that Sayaka not turn herself into a crazed zombie, it is a little suspicious that he would inform Sayaka of that possibility. I think Kyubey knew that Sayaka was going to snap, but can justify to one angry Madoka that he tried dissuading Sayaka otherwise.

Hope those sentences were not too hard to read. While Kyubey has been very meticulous in not overstepping his boundaries, I cannot help but feel some anger at his methods.
Spoiler for Episode 7 - Kyubey tortures Sayaka:


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Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
A possibility. But isn't it possible that Kyubey recruits Sayaka because she's already a candidate anyway and she happens to have a wish? It's not like Kyubey can control when exactly Sayaka would present her wish.
Sure.
I do not think Kyubey can perfectly predict when Sayaka will make her wish, but had a general idea how the pieces would fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrooge McDuck View Post
Well, 妖精 (yousei) is more specific, though. Generally is not used to describe demons, demoted angels or spirits of the dead.
Literally, the meaning suggests that Kyubey is a good fairy.
However, the anime's constant deconstruction of previously held conceptions makes me think Kyubey's identity will not be so clear-cut.

Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-02-23 at 17:24. Reason: Compelling video.
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Old 2011-02-23, 17:54   Link #460
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post

Manga confirmed that Kyuube is fairy. (not devil, witch or whatever.
The thing doesn't change is, he is still bitch.
Man I predicted him being an angel but I guess this is close so this would explain why he's so cold after all he isn't human any sense of the word.

Also it's shame Kaijo got a banned I would've loved to hear what had to say about this...
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