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Old 2011-02-24, 09:29   Link #22021
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Minor item: Episode 4: Right after George challenges Gaap, it mentions that there's a full moon. I just looked on http://stardate.org/nightsky/moon and found that Oct 4 1986 was a new moon. Not sure if that actually means anything. (Or it could just be an indicator that the scene is fake.)
Also applies to Rosa Musou: How could they see the moon to know anyway? Last time I checked, they're in the midst of a storm that isn't supposed to clear until the 6th. You might be able to argue the clouds were clearing on the night of the 5th (which would handle ep2), but you can't explain ep3 or ep4 showing clear skies on the 4th.
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Old 2011-02-24, 13:41   Link #22022
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Obviously magic; if demons can't clear the sky to show off a badass full moon, then screw 'em.
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Old 2011-02-24, 14:12   Link #22023
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I believe the clear skies were all fantasy scenes weren't they?
I wonder if we'll ever have an official solution to the epitaph.
It's the only mystery I really want to know :3 Screw the murders.
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Old 2011-02-24, 15:11   Link #22024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remon View Post
I believe the clear skies were all fantasy scenes weren't they?
I wonder if we'll ever have an official solution to the epitaph.
It's the only mystery I really want to know :3 Screw the murders.
Yes, we got an official explanation for the epitaph in EP7.
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Old 2011-02-24, 15:25   Link #22025
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Cool. I'm playing it now so I'll be in for a nice surprise
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Old 2011-02-24, 18:48   Link #22026
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Originally Posted by Remon View Post
I believe the clear skies were all fantasy scenes weren't they?
I'm pretty sure the anime and manga back that claim...
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Old 2011-02-27, 10:43   Link #22027
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Hey guys I got another of my crazy ideas.
Here's the umineko philosophy in a nutshell if applied to our contemporary society:

Spoiler for Heavily satiric image about the "Umineko Philosophy as shown in EP8":



I think Umineko pretty much confirms one of the axioms of our society: "A man's willingness to hide the truth and to pretend all is right in the country is directly proportional to the power he holds".

Just look at Battler, he started as a harsh denialist of magic, with a strong will to find and uncover the truth.
Then as soon as he became the Game Master and Feudal Lord he completely switched side.
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Old 2011-02-27, 14:35   Link #22028
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Er...lol, no?

Umineko never treats learning the truth as bad; only when you start unnecessarily (key word here) hurting people to do so.
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Old 2011-02-27, 17:13   Link #22029
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Er...lol, no?

Umineko never treats learning the truth as bad; only when you start unnecessarily (key word here) hurting people to do so.
Yeah, this is why I'm extremely anxious for WH to finish translating EP8 so I can read it. Even knowing the gist of it's events and themes, I just need to ... actually ... read it ... before I can decide anything.
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Old 2011-02-27, 20:32   Link #22030
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Argh, I almost posted this in the EP7 forum, without realizing that it's not confirmed who the authors were until EP8. 8)

Anyways, I'm going back through EP1 just for the fun of it because of a certain reason.. *cough* and it's interesting if you go back and try to imagine what Yasu (or Battler/Tooya in EP3-4) was thinking when they were writing. For example:

"I guess I have all that muscle training and those shady mail-order performance-enhancing drugs to thank for that."

This line seems so out of place that I can't help but think Yasu got carried away with imagining Battler's 6-yr-older hot sexy body at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a drool spot on that page.
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:21   Link #22031
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Er...lol, no?

Umineko never treats learning the truth as bad; only when you start unnecessarily (key word here) hurting people to do so.
Oh bullcrap. It basically says that if the truth hurts you are better off not knowing.
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:38   Link #22032
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Er...lol, no?

Umineko never treats learning the truth as bad; only when you start unnecessarily (key word here) hurting people to do so.
That might haven been true until EP7, but EP8 goes beyond that.

This isn't about using the truth to hurt others, but "learning and accepting sad truths". In fact Ange later devotes her own life to teach "magic" to all the children of the world.

The philosophy behind all that is that it's better not to learn/deny sad truths and replace them with something happier. (Ninjaed by Sherry)


Let's take as an example Battler and Erika discussion:

Quote:
そんなにも一なる真実とやらが大事か…?!世の中には知る必要も価値もないものだってたくさんある。縁寿に とって1986年にどれほどの意味があるってんだ!何もない

Battler: Is that "only truth" imprtant? In the world there are many things that have no use nor any worth even if you know them. In Ange's case what's the point in knowing what happened in 1986? Absolutely nothing!
Note that Battler is making a general statement, Ange's case is just an example. His point isn't about "hurting truths", or "sad truths". He's basically treating knowledge from a mere materialistic standpoint: "Does it change anything in your life if you know this?"

This is what Battler is talking about.

Quote:
くっすくすくす!ないでしょうね!1986年に何があったってなくたって!1998年に生きる縁寿さんには 何の変化もない!それが知ることの無意味さです。ですが、1つだけ変えられることがあります。[...] どう生きるかです!!

Erika: Hu hu hu! Of course not! Even if you don't tell what happened in 1986, for the Ange in 1998 nothing will change! Knowing that is meaningless. However there's only one thing that changes [...] The way you live!
Erika recognizes that there is some knowledge that has no real worth in your everyday life. Again no one is talking about bad or good truths.

I wonder what kind of worth they see in knowing that Pluto isn't a planet or that Alpha Centauri is the closest star to our solar system. According to this reasoning that's completely worthless... poor astronomists...

Anyway Erika makes a good point, knowledge changes the way you live (and she's the bad guy).


Quote:
そうだな。人は知ることで、どう生きるかを変えることもあるだろう。……ならば、俺は肉親として願う。縁寿 が、俺のゲームの末に、より良い生き方に人生を変えてくれることをな。

Battler: That's right. I guess that people change the way they live depending on what they know. ...but in that case, it is my desire as Ange's relative to make her change her way of life for the better with my final game.

So in other words, Battler acknowledges that depending on what you know your life changes. And because of that he decided to change Ange's life by telling her something different from the truth.

Am I the only one that sees a problem here? The intention might be good, but there are severe moral implications in trying to manipulate someone's life by telling them lies (or hiding truths from them). Especially if that blatantly goes against their will.


From this point onward "What's the point in knowing the truth?" becomes the "leit motif" of the whole episode. It was probably repeated a hundred of times.
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:39   Link #22033
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Argh, I almost posted this in the EP7 forum, without realizing that it's not confirmed who the authors were until EP8. 8)

Anyways, I'm going back through EP1 just for the fun of it because of a certain reason.. *cough* and it's interesting if you go back and try to imagine what Yasu (or Battler/Tooya in EP3-4) was thinking when they were writing. For example:

"I guess I have all that muscle training and those shady mail-order performance-enhancing drugs to thank for that."

This line seems so out of place that I can't help but think Yasu got carried away with imagining Battler's 6-yr-older hot sexy body at that point. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a drool spot on that page.
LOL. I've had this imaginary of scene of Yasu writing in my head for seceral days now:

Yasu : *is writing Legend in the garden*
Kuma : Oh, are you still working on that?
Yasu : ...yes. I'd like you to read this ... part. It's where I suspect Jessica will probably meet Battler. I was thinking he'd say something, like, ah, "lemme grab your tits".
Kuma : Well isn't that lulzy. Can you put me in that scene? Hohoho.
Yasu : Oh sure, sure. That sounds just like him, after all, right? He likes them big, right? Kihihihi
Genji : He certainly said something to that effect, yes.
Nanjo : I dunno, Yasu-kun. He said that a LONG time ago, when he was just a child. I doubt he sincerely meant all the sorts of things he was spouting back th-
Yasu : **FACE**
Genji : DAMNIT NANJO.
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:42   Link #22034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Oh bullcrap. It basically says that if the truth hurts you are better off not knowing.
I think it's more the Japanese fashion of:
Even though something is true, truth is not necessarily the best option.
So instead of pulling a terrible truth out in the open, it's better to just find your own truth and live with it instead of destroying harmony.

It's not like I actually agree with it, but it's a much more accepted notion in Japan than it is in the West.
The most prominent example is, how the three monkeys were a symbol for model social behaviour in Japan, while it became a symbol for cowardice and wrong behaviour in the West.

It's not like anybody involved doesn't know the truth, they just disregard it in favour of their personal truth.
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Old 2011-02-27, 21:55   Link #22035
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So instead of pulling a terrible truth out in the open, it's better to just find your own truth and live with it instead of destroying harmony.
Which is what I was talking about. No doubt that this is the best philosophy a politician can wish for.

Deny or minimize a terrible truth for the sake of harmony? I know a lot of dictators that totally agreed (and agree) with that.


No doubt that disclosing some truths can lead to conflict and even war and deaths. But if you don't open your eyes to the truth, nothing will ever change.
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Old 2011-02-27, 23:06   Link #22036
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Oh bullcrap. It basically says that if the truth hurts you are better off not knowing.
Well it's more "People have the right to not know if they don't want to", but the point remains that it doesn't treat learning the truth as a moral injustice as people here are blowing out of proportion. Chill the fuck out.

Quote:
That might haven been true until EP7, but EP8 goes beyond that.

This isn't about using the truth to hurt others, but "learning and accepting sad truths". In fact Ange later devotes her own life to teach "magic" to all the children of the world.

The philosophy behind all that is that it's better not to learn/deny sad truths and replace them with something happier.
Ange defined "magic" as not holding grudges and hatred and dissolving abuse with forgiveness, so...

Quote:
Note that Battler is making a general statement, Ange's case is just an example. His point isn't about "hurting truths", or "sad truths". He's basically treating knowledge from a mere materialistic standpoint: "Does it change anything in your life if you know this?"

This is what Battler is talking about.
Granted, but the general statement is a rebuttal to how "the truth is the only thing that matters." He's strawmaning the opposite point here.

Quote:
Erika recognizes that there is some knowledge that has no real worth in your everyday life. Again no one is talking about bad or good truths.

I wonder what kind of worth they see in knowing that Pluto isn't a planet or that Alpha Centauri is the closest star to our solar system. According to this reasoning that's completely worthless... poor astronomists...

Anyway Erika makes a good point, knowledge changes the way you live (and she's the bad guy).
Erika's not TOTALLY the bad guy in EP8, but putting that aside, she also came to an understanding of Battler's and Beatrice's worldview and didn't seem to be as critical of it as she should be. Erika is right in this situation, though.

The point is that Ange has the right to choose. Even Will acknowledged that and no one's getting on his ass. WTF?

Quote:
So in other words, Battler acknowledges that depending on what you know your life changes. And because of that he decided to change Ange's life by telling her something different from the truth.

Am I the only one that sees a problem here? The intention might be good, but there are severe moral implications in trying to manipulate someone's life by telling them lies (or hiding truths from them). Especially if that blatantly goes against their will.
Bear in mind that this is a Battler who knows things we do not. While I see your point, we can't fully judge his actions without knowing what he's hiding. This is an issue all on it's own, but putting that aside, Battler's final game isn't like...the slightest bit believable. It was so egregiously just a show to put Ange's heart at rest that I don't think we can really accuse him of trying to DECEIVE Ange.

Yes, it was wrong of Battler to not respect Ange's decision, but this is nowhere near comparable to maliciously hiding government secrets to dupe the sheeple and shit; come on now.

PS In fairness, if EP8 is being written by Ange as suspected, then Meta-Battler in this context would be the personification of the part of her that wants to believe in the golden "everyone is nice" scenario.
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Old 2011-02-27, 23:46   Link #22037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Which is what I was talking about. No doubt that this is the best philosophy a politician can wish for.

Deny or minimize a terrible truth for the sake of harmony? I know a lot of dictators that totally agreed (and agree) with that.


No doubt that disclosing some truths can lead to conflict and even war and deaths. But if you don't open your eyes to the truth, nothing will ever change.
But like Aura Twilight already explained there is a big difference between political and social philosophies...you are comparing pears with apples here.

Where is the similarity between a dictator hiding terrible government secrets about weapons of massdestruction and death facilities and a brother who just wants his sister to remember the good points of her family instead of their terrible last moments.

In knowing that a dictator is hiding weapons of massdestruction and kills everyone opposing his reign there is a very positive gain, because you can give that information to the world and help overthrow that reign of terror.

In knowing that a family turned into selfcentred jerks over a bunch of gold and basically killed each other in the process because an abandoned child didn't know how to be loved and accidently opened up that chance, ending in the death or madness of everybody except a single teenage girl....what's the gain in knowing that?!

Of course people can hold different personal opinions about the second, but there is no definite GAIN in that truth.
That truth is not about gaining something useful, it's just about knowing and gaining power through that. It's like we regain some power over celebrities by depriving them of their privacy.
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Old 2011-02-28, 00:37   Link #22038
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To sum up what Battler's angle here was, he wanted Ange to remember how everyone was when they were alive, instead of letting a tragedy define them entirely.
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Old 2011-02-28, 00:46   Link #22039
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One thing I noticed when reading the summaries is that in Kanon's memory of Kinzo in episode 6 he describes Kinzo in an almost identical way to episode 8. "In private he didn't have to preserve that air of majesty and his face would turn unbelievably childish". Anyone else notice that?
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Old 2011-02-28, 01:04   Link #22040
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But like Aura Twilight already explained there is a big difference between political and social philosophies...you are comparing pears with apples here..
I disagree. Battler's position isn't a social one, but a political one. He is Rokkenjima's dictator, and controls an entire army. He uses that army to protect his ideological standpoint, despite Ange's wishes.

He isn't arguing that Ange shouldn't see the truth. He is using all his influence, all his allies, all his power to forcibly stop her. That's a political philosophy, not a social one. He is advocating a view and imposing them on others.

He is using his powers to maintain the reign of fantasy, even if he has to force people to accept it.
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