Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Here lies another crack theory.

Madoka's Memory

There is only one piece of actual evidence supporting this theory - the relationship between Homura and Madoka. Madoka asks Homura: "Have we met before?"

Madoka also dreams of Homura fighting some dark being. If this is a memory of the future, then its natural continuation is Madoka making a wish. And what was Madoka's wish, you ask?

To go back in time. To forget everything she ever knew about Puella Magi, witches, and Kyubey. To reverse the impending disaster upon humanity.

This way, Madoka would not fall to Incubator's plans (whatever they may be) and still save the world.

So, what we are seeing now is a replay of previous events. However, this time around, Homura has altered the course of history. Homura attacked Kyubey, who called out to Madoka. Homura stopped the witch who killed Mami and nearly killed Sayaka and Madoka.

Madoka's memories are of the future - Homura's existence is causing her to remember what she should have forgotten due to the wish. And Homura's meddling with the past might just save the future.

No you're definitely onto something. This is something I asked as well in a couple threads back. There are some inconsistencies in perception and I can't put my finger on it, but there is something very surreal about everything going on. I get the feeling that we're missing a big piece of the puzzle that is going to come in later episodes.

As I asked before, has anyone noticed the variation in animation throughout the few episodes available so far? It switches in certain scenes, leading me to believe that not everything is as seems. Also, pay attention to the OP, one of the final scenes shows Madoka with a cat and it has a drastically different animation style that we see a few times in the first episodes, and sprinklings in other episodes as well.

[taofd]

"You can become far stronger than Mami if you become a magical girl-- Of course, it also depends on what kind of wish you make when you form the contract, but even I can't estimate how large of a Soul gem you might produce."

--QB
7:10, ep 3

I'm sure people are tired of my theories about how the strength of the mahou shoujo is dependant on the sincerity / purity of intentions, but just leaving this quote here for discussion.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by taofd

"You can become far stronger than Mami if you become a magical girl-- Of course, it also depends on what kind of wish you make when you form the contract, but even I can't estimate how large of a Soul gem you might produce."

--QB
7:10, ep 3

I'm sure people are tired of my theories about how the strength of the mahou shoujo is dependant on the sincerity / purity of intentions, but just leaving this quote here for discussion.

I actually understood it as a matter of technicality. If she wished for a healing, she would have unbelievable powers associated with the wish. Even so, making a time related wish would give her themoreso stronger abilities that would be more useful and such. Or to put it simple, you wish to be a millionnaire, you receive certain power. You wish to be a multi billionnaire, that power becomes even stronger. For that matter it doesn't need to be the same kind of wish either seen in my first example, just there need to be different levels which end up more useful (strong) or less useful (strong). Not denying the meta theories though, just how I understood it.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Vanish

I actually understood it as a matter of technicality. If she wished for a healing, she would have unbelievable powers associated with the wish. Even so, making a time related wish would give her themoreso stronger abilities that would be more useful and such. Or to put it simple, you wish to be a millionnaire, you receive certain power. You wish to be a multi billionnaire, that power becomes even stronger. For that matter it doesn't need to be the same kind of wish either seen in my first example, just there need to be different levels which end up more useful (strong) or less useful (strong). Not denying the meta theories though, just how I understood it.

I think the point I was trying to make, in the context of "strength" which this conversation was clearly about, was not the "type" of power she would receive. The benefits associated with one power can't really equate strength, they're unique unto a certain utility; homura with time, mami with bindings, sayaka with healing, etc. You can argue what is more "powerful" but that is subjective.

QB was answering his question related to strength, so while it is possible he was referring to something else, I find it somewhat unlikely.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

I think the danger of these more off the wall theories is that, pretty much anything could be true if you factor in an alternate reality.

Well, it's already been strongly suggested that there's an "alternate timeline". Depending on your point of view, that's not that far off from an "alternate reality".

Also, you yourself make an observation that suggests to me that something "off the wall" may very well be going on.

I'm still betting on the fact that the show is symbolic of self-identity development of a girl to womanhood, but looks like I'm the only touting that theory lol.

Well, hey, that's also a reason why I'm not willing to completely rule out Kaijo's VR idea, with my add-ons to it. There definitely seems to be a sense here of Madoka going through an important time of self-discovery and personal growth into womanhood. This anime feels like it could end up being a "coming of age" story for Madoka.

A lot of plot events, and plot points, in this anime feel a bit too... convenient to me. A bit too artificial even. It's almost like we're watching inevitable events unfold, and they're inevitable in spite of how some of these events are a bit weird.

On a side note, what if the final boss is alternate Madoka? What if the reason why Homura is desperately trying to stop Madoka from forming a contract is because Madoka turns into an insanely powerful witch?

That's certainly possible. And yet, if that is the case, then either we get a "bad end", or the dream of Episode 1 likely never happens.

Originally Posted by taofd

This is something I asked as well in a couple threads back. There are some inconsistencies in perception and I can't put my finger on it, but there is something very surreal about everything going on. I get the feeling that we're missing a big piece of the puzzle that is going to come in later episodes.

Agreed. There is indeed something very surreal about everything that's going on. And it's more than just "SHAFT being SHAFT", because Bakemonogatari had that, but that anime didn't feel this surreal to me.

Often when watching this anime (and especially since Episode 4) I feel like I'm watching theater. In other words, I feel like I'm watching something a bit exaggerated, and over the top (which I often like, by the way, so I'm not saying that to be critical). It's a little bit similar to watching how the girls of Higurashi kept breaking down in an extreme fashion from one reality to the next to the next.

One speculation I've had for awhile now, but that I've kept to myself, is that I wonder if becoming a magical girl causes heightened emotion. If it has an effect similar to, say, 'roid rage.

Sayaka's descent into deep depression and extremism seems utterly uncanny to me. It doesn't feel natural. I mean, yeah, there's stuff going on that should depress her, and upset her a bit, but to go from a perfectly happy and well-adjusted girl in Episodes 1 through 4 to the sort of suicidal extremist that she is in Episode 8 is quite the rapid and almost inexplicable psychological plunge.

Kyoko's sociopathic tendencies in her first couple of encounters with Sayaka made her come off as downright evil to me. Now, an evil abusive character in a magical girl anime is by no means that big of a deal (Sailor Moon had loads of antagonists like that). But Kyoko's massive character change, without much in the way of a big defining moment to cause it, is practically unprecedented. Since the soul gem reveal, Kyoko has done a complete 180. She has gone from actively wanting to kill Sayaka to now seemingly wanting to be Sayaka's best friend and save her. That sort of complete 180 in such a short span of time, without a truly defining moment to serve as a catalyst for it, is kind of weird, imo. Even Fate had to be gradually and slowly won over by Nanoha, helped along by a few defining moments along the way.

As for Homura, she has an intense dedication to Madoka, so much so that she seems to care about no one, or no thing, else.


Being a magical girl seems to truly warp a person. And simply gaining super powers probably shouldn't have that much of an effect. There seems to be a degree of emotional, mental, or psychological corruption going on here. And that makes me think that there's much more to the "magical girl system" than what meets the eye.

I get the sense that everything is playing out as directed by some master puppeteer's script... and that master puppeteer isn't Kyubey. Kyubey himself doesn't seem to know enough to be that guy, imo. He himself comes across as perplexed at times.

Now Kaijo's VR theory would make Madoka's mom (or somebody else) the master puppeteer, so that could explain things.

But even if that theory doesn't hold, I wouldn't be surprised to see a character like The Matrix's "Architect" to make a reveal at some point.

As I asked before, has anyone noticed the variation in animation throughout the few episodes available so far? It switches in certain scenes, leading me to believe that not everything is as seems. Also, pay attention to the OP, one of the final scenes shows Madoka with a cat and it has a drastically different animation style that we see a few times in the first episodes, and sprinklings in other episodes as well.

I definitely get what you're saying here. That scene in the OP that you referenced, with a very happy Madoka holding on to a black cat, almost seems to be taking place in an entirely different world...

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

A lot of plot events, and plot points, in this anime feel a bit too... convenient to me. A bit too artificial even. It's almost like we're watching inevitable events unfold, and they're inevitable in spite of how some of these events are a bit weird.

Agree with what you're seeing. And to be honest, this was part of the reason I thought about this being an artificial reality program. Things could easily be setup to be convenient if it were the case. It would explain a lot, and remove quite a few of the issues I have with how things are unfolding.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Agree with what you're seeing. And to be honest, this was part of the reason I thought about this being an artificial reality program. Things could easily be setup to be convenient if it were the case. It would explain a lot, and remove quite a few of the issues I have with how things are unfolding.

Well, I think that what helps to create this sense for me is the contrast between Madoka and the actual magical girls. Madoka is the only one to keep a consistent level-head through out all of this, and to not emotionally break down or take extreme actions. Yes, Madoka's been whiny and indecisive, but believably so. I mean, she comes off as a having a "keeping it real" personality to me. Sayaka also felt like that to me... until shortly after she became a magical girl.

[panzerfan]

I think I should add to my Tl;dr post before on Walpurgis Night, in that ultimately one may see it as a do-or-die situation for the witches to-be there as well. If a witch would not be successful there, it shan't be successful anywhere else.

The other thing that has emerged from the Walpurgis Night of Goethe regards to avarice, in which the audience of Madoka know well that the very wish which prompted for the creation of magical girls are in fact stepped in avarice.

"I feel folk are ripe for Judgement Day, Of Witch's Mount, I've made my last ascent. And now my cask runs cloudy, anyway, The world itself is all as good as spent" makes for a most haunting statement I suppose, if we factor in the overwhelming regrets from acts of ere that humankind and magical girls alike shoulder. By this time of judgment, correction is for naught and only new realities matter. As beautifully put by Mephistopheles,

What's past is done! What's done is past! Now it’s novelties that lead us on.

It remains to be seen if Homura will be deemed as yet another Proktophantamist by the actors of this wild orgy of the witches.


I don't think I can offer much to the Virtual Reality notion at this moment, so about the only thing that I can state for now would be that generally it is hard not to succumb to a certain predisposition when one is placed in such a position that would not afford ambiguity or subjectivist perspective (being a magical girl).

[creb]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Actually, to argue against myself (lol) and maybe back you up, we don't know if the GS can move or not so it could be that after random wandering, it just ended up there. I don't believe that though.

I'm 99% certain QB plants them. Sure would make all the coincidental occurances in the first 4-5 episodes revolving around where those Witch attacks took place...make a WHOLE lot of sense.

[risingstar3110]

I actually want to organise up all of the speculated theories for this series. And i guess the two major questions would point toward QB and Homura (who, their main goal, why). For QB it's easy. He's either evil who plan something super evil. Or a logical (non-moral) being whom tried to reach a logical solution. He probably can't pull something emotionally like: "I do all this to revive my dead girl friend, right?"

However for the case of Homura, it's actually quite interesting, because:

A) Who is she?

1. Homura herself, no one else
2. Sakuya
3. Madoka
4. Madoka's daughter
5. the black cat in the OP
6. a virtual NPC in a virtual reality program (made by Madoka mom)

B) How she know events beforehand

1. she's from the future
2. she's here before the world reset
3. through prophecy
4. from alternative universe
5. option 1 and 2 but thank to Madoka's wish
6. she was created or programed to know about it

C) Ultimate goal

1. save the universe
2. save Madoka alone (through regret, to payback favour)
3. save herself
4. stop the time loop
5. continue the time loop
6. change Madoka (into a real magical girl, a Goddess, a more confident girl)
7. can be with Madoka forever

So far the most popular theory are 1-1-2 (along with 5-1-2 and 1-5-2). And we have that virtual world theory that went either 6-6-5 ; 6-6-6 or 6-6-7. even through i admit 2-1-2 are interesting as well

[Jimmy C]

Putting up my post in the ep8 discussion made me think of one way to use wishes to end the witch problem permanently. The only problem is it requires sacrificing two girls to do so.

Spoiler for How to end it all:

1. Start with two girls how are good-hearted, have no impossible desires that they would want to wish for and aren't in immediate danger of dying.
2. These girls must be told about the truth behind the MGs system and the witches. In addition to what Kyubei normally tells girls, they need to know that their souls will be seperated and placed into their Soul Gems and that their Soul Gems will eventually become Grief Seeds even if they don't use magic for anything else. And that InKyubeiTor has many bodies.
3. One of the girls will wish all witches to cease to exist.
4. The other girl will wish Kyubei, all of him, to cease to exist. Left alone, he'll simply contract more girls who will eventually become witches.
5. Both girls will destory their Soul Gems. We don't know if moving a Gem outside the control range will make it not expend magic in an attempt to reconnect with its body. This is the only way to be sure.

The sacrifice can be reduced to just one girl if it is revealed that Kyubei is the origin of all witches in the first place.
After #1 and #2 above, the girl wishes Kyubei not to have existed in the first place, then destroys her Soul Gem.

I can't think of a way that would not require a sacrifice if a wish with Kyubei is involved. This is assuming Kyubei will even grant such a wish.

[panzerfan]

Although technically, couldn't one attempt then to wish that Witches will no longer feast on curses instead? If witch's existence is of no threat anymore, then the bloodletting can stop there as well.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Putting up my post in the ep8 discussion made me think of one way to use wishes to end the witch problem permanently. The only problem is it requires sacrificing two girls to do so.

Spoiler for How to end it all:

1. Start with two girls how are good-hearted, have no impossible desires that they would want to wish for and aren't in immediate danger of dying.
2. These girls must be told about the truth behind the MGs system and the witches. In addition to what Kyubei normally tells girls, they need to know that their souls will be seperated and placed into their Soul Gems and that their Soul Gems will eventually become Grief Seeds even if they don't use magic for anything else. And that InKyubeiTor has many bodies.
3. One of the girls will wish all witches to cease to exist.
4. The other girl will wish Kyubei, all of him, to cease to exist. Left alone, he'll simply contract more girls who will eventually become witches.
5. Both girls will destory their Soul Gems. We don't know if moving a Gem outside the control range will make it not expend magic in an attempt to reconnect with its body. This is the only way to be sure.

The sacrifice can be reduced to just one girl if it is revealed that Kyubei is the origin of all witches in the first place.
After #1 and #2 above, the girl wishes Kyubei not to have existed in the first place, then destroys her Soul Gem.

I can't think of a way that would not require a sacrifice if a wish with Kyubei is involved. This is assuming Kyubei will even grant such a wish.

To say the truth, that sounds like going to see a mafia boss and ask them a favour of shooting themselves in the head. I don't think QB will let this plan to be carried out

Unless QB is a rational being who have no secret desire whatsoever. But the way he consistently try to convince Madoka to hand over her soul say otherwise

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Although technically, couldn't one attempt then to wish that Witches will no longer feast on curses instead?

We don't know if that will improve the situation or make it even worse somehow. Making them cease to exist is the only way to be sure.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

To say the truth, that sounds like going to see a mafia boss and ask them a favour of shooting themselves in the head. I don't think QB will let this plan to be carried out.

I assign it a near zero probability of success too. But Kaijo keeps yammering about why it's never addressed, even though it is addressed without anyone needing to say anything, so...

[novalysis]

Here's another thought occured to me . Right now , there are three stages in a Witches Life( that is not an ex-familiar , that is) . The first is as an ordinary girl , with her Soul within her body . The second is a Contacted Puella Magi , or Mahou Shojo , or Magical Girl. Her soul is now takes a physical form , and she has not yet completely lost her sentience , nor does she directly consume souls yet . The final stage is a Witch , which I presume is a being who has lost all vestigial humanity , sentience and has an insatiable thirst for souls .

We know that Homura no longer considers herself human . She also is fully aware that Witches are "fully developed" magical girls . Finally , Puella Magis who completely give themselves up to despair turn into Witches . I find it very hard to believe that she has avoided that despair all this while. Yet she herself has been a Magical Girl for a very long time . Could she be more than that?

After seeing Homura's house in Episode 8 , it really reminds me of a Witch Barrier in some ways. Could Homura actually be an example of a Fourth Stage of Puella Magis , a Post Witch Stage that regains some measure of humanity, her sentience , and the removal of the thirst for Souls while relighting their Soul Gem ; all the while retaining many of the powers of a Witch , such as the ability to form a Witch Barrier ? The evidence is quite circumstantial , but I think it's a plausible theory still - there's nothing that exactly rules it out yet .

[GDB]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I find it very hard to believe that she has avoided that despair all this while. Yet she herself has been a Magical Girl for a very long time . Could she be more than that?

It's possible, though my initial suspicion is that she isn't consumed by grief because she has Madoka as her beacon of hope. As long as she has that hope of saving Madoka, she won't allow herself to succumb to grief.

[Seihai]

Sayaka is right that Homura is kind of "empty", but what she didn't know (but we know) is that Homura has one very important goal which she has been following now for quite some time; that is, Madoka. So it's natural that even though she is "not human anymore", as long as she has something to fight for, a purpose, then that's enough to resist all the "grief". Additionally, it was said that some people are just very talented, that they could use more magic and not taint their Soul Gems as fast. Homura would probably be one of those very talented.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, hey, that's also a reason why I'm not willing to completely rule out Kaijo's VR idea, with my add-ons to it. There definitely seems to be a sense here of Madoka going through an important time of self-discovery and personal growth into womanhood. This anime feels like it could end up being a "coming of age" story for Madoka.

A VR, to me at least, seems unlikely. There are far too many characters with deep personal motivation for them to spin this out as a VR. It would introduce IMO, a distraction to the main plotline (for example, sentient AI?), and from what I understand is the motivation to create this series, completely detracts from the creators main point.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's certainly possible. And yet, if that is the case, then either we get a "bad end", or the dream of Episode 1 likely never happens.

Not necessarily a bad end . Only a bad-end in the alternate universe, and that is assuming that current universe Madoka can't overcome whatever she succumbed to in the alternate timeline. I think it's well within Madoka's power to do whatever the heck she wants if she so wishes.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If it has an effect similar to, say, 'roid rage.

"Form a contract with me and become a magical girl!"
Side effects may include vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pains, painful menstrual cramping, emotional outbursts, and identity degeneration and self-destruction. Please consult your local Kyubey and ask questions before forming this contract.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sayaka's descent into deep depression and extremism seems utterly uncanny to me. It doesn't feel natural. I mean, yeah, there's stuff going on that should depress her, and upset her a bit, but to go from a perfectly happy and well-adjusted girl in Episodes 1 through 4 to the sort of suicidal extremist that she is in Episode 8 is quite the rapid and almost inexplicable psychological plunge.

Well this is a drama... and her world has been shaken up quite a bit. She's probably already feeling exhausted by the fact that her SG is tainted, and that's just compounded by the vicious cycle.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyoko's sociopathic tendencies in her first couple of encounters with Sayaka made her come off as downright evil to me. Now, an evil abusive character in a magical girl anime is by no means that big of a deal (Sailor Moon had loads of antagonists like that). But Kyoko's massive character change, without much in the way of a big defining moment to cause it, is practically unprecedented. Since the soul gem reveal, Kyoko has done a complete 180. She has gone from actively wanting to kill Sayaka to now seemingly wanting to be Sayaka's best friend and save her. That sort of complete 180 in such a short span of time, without a truly defining moment to serve as a catalyst for it, is kind of weird, imo. Even Fate had to be gradually and slowly won over by Nanoha, helped along by a few defining moments along the way.

I don't think Kyoko was a sociopath, it was very clear that she had some internal issues she was working through. Furthermore, it becomes very clear that Kyoko identifies with Sayaka, which was the reason why she told her what she did.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Being a magical girl seems to truly warp a person. And simply gaining super powers probably shouldn't have that much of an effect. There seems to be a degree of emotional, mental, or psychological corruption going on here. And that makes me think that there's much more to the "magical girl system" than what meets the eye.

"With Power comes great Responsibility..."

"The ultimate measure of a [mahou shoujo] is not where [s]he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where [s]he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now Kaijo's VR theory would make Madoka's mom (or somebody else) the master puppeteer, so that could explain things.

Like I said, it could just be symbolic? In fact they're giving way to many hints for me to feel like this is VR. Also, revealing at the end of a series that this was all a VR is like pulling a Mai-Hime :/.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I definitely get what you're saying here. That scene in the OP that you referenced, with a very happy Madoka holding on to a black cat, almost seems to be taking place in an entirely different world...

!!!!!!!

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I definitely get what you're saying here. That scene in the OP that you referenced, with a very happy Madoka holding on to a black cat, almost seems to be taking place in an entirely different world...

That could be it.
Madoka was able to rewrite reality. She was alone, too powerful to be happy (Clow references anyone...) and fighting whatever on her own.

She changed the world to become "normal", but so much power got to go somewhere. Q-B was created.

Homura was her cat, she has the mission to preserve her mistress to become a MS again, cause the reality-warping point was for her to live normally.

Mami represent her loneliness.
Sayaka her justice sense.
Kyoko her inner and selfish desire to live for herself.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sageblink

That could be it.
Madoka was able to rewrite reality. She was alone, too powerful to be happy (Clow references anyone...) and fighting whatever on her own.

She changed the world to become "normal", but so much power got to go somewhere. Q-B was created.

Homura was her cat, she has the mission to preserve her mistress to become a MS again, cause the reality-warping point was for her to live normally.

Mami represent her loneliness.
Sayaka her justice sense.
Kyoko her inner and selfish desire to live for herself.

Lol I like the way you think, although I don't know if the anime will be *that* metaphorical.

So, according to your theory, each character is a manifestation of a characteristic Madoka exhibits?