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Old 2011-02-25, 11:28   Link #141
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Were we watching the same episode? Homura admitted herself that she didn't want to help Sayaka. She was refused thanks in part to her lying about her intentions. This wasn't about stroking anyone's ego. Homura's sole obession with Madoka has been clear from the very start.
Yes, homura is obsessed wiht Madoka, and homura mostly said the truth.

But what she did was also stroking Sayaka's ego. First, she gave the grief seed for sayaka to get better. When Sayaka continued to want to hate homura because of her preconceptions (Sayaka *always* either attack someone without facts or believe them too much), Homura went the other way round and decided to have sayaka be pleased about how clever she was, *while still trying to make her use the grief seed*.

Even when homura "threatened" sayaka, most of what she did was fullfilling sayaka's image of her while still telling her 'use the grief seed, DAMMIT'.

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The only thing Kyoko got in the way of was Homura trying to kill another character in the series.
When homura wants to kill someone, she does. She was threatening sayaka in order for her to use the grief seed.

In fact, if you look at the actual dialog, she was saying "if you don't use the grief seed, i'll have to kill you", which is pretty much true as Sayaka would become a witch.
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Old 2011-02-25, 11:31   Link #142
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You aren't wrong but you skipped an important part. The fact that Homura threw a Grief Seed to Sayaka. I don't know what else it could be if it isn't considered some kind of help. Homura was aware that Sayaka kept using her magic without cleaning her SG with GS. Another thing you skipped is the fact that Sayaka did not only refuse the help, she simply threw the GS away and then started bashing Homura. Only after the needless provocation did Homura snap.
The fact is that Sayaka at that point isn't interested in her own life, so she has no reason to take it for her own sake. If it had been Madoka who had given her the Grief Seed out of concern for her, she would have taken it, but since it was Homura, who doesn't seem to care, she has no reason to. In fact, she probably thought it was some sort of trap. And she didn't bash Homura, she gave reasons why she didn't trust her, and they were all good reasons. If I were in her situation, I wouldn't trust Homura. Kyouko doesn't, and I don't think even Madoka fully trusts her.
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Old 2011-02-25, 11:38   Link #143
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It probably needs to be said that Homura's overall approach, though understandable if she tried different approaches in other timelines which failed, has backfired.

By putting forward a cold exterior, by being so very cryptic, and by being rather secretive, Homura has largely failed to gain the trust of Madoka or Sayaka. The repercussons of that are seen quite clearly in Episode 8. It's hard to fault Sayaka for not trusting her.
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Old 2011-02-25, 11:53   Link #144
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It probably needs to be said that Homura's overall approach, though understandable if she tried different approaches in other timelines which failed, has backfired.

By putting forward a cold exterior, by being so very cryptic, and by being rather secretive, Homura has largely failed to gain the trust of Madoka or Sayaka. The repercussons of that are seen quite clearly in Episode 8. It's hard to fault Sayaka for not trusting her.
Exactly this. Seriously, she should have gone with the Mami approach.
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Old 2011-02-25, 12:03   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The fact is that Sayaka at that point isn't interested in her own life, so she has no reason to take it for her own sake. If it had been Madoka who had given her the Grief Seed out of concern for her, she would have taken it, but since it was Homura, who doesn't seem to care, she has no reason to. In fact, she probably thought it was some sort of trap. And she didn't bash Homura, she gave reasons why she didn't trust her, and they were all good reasons. If I were in her situation, I wouldn't trust Homura. Kyouko doesn't, and I don't think even Madoka fully trusts her.
Part of why I think Sayaka was stupid. Logically speaking, healing her own wounds is also for her own life. Why does she heal herself if she doesn't care? In other words, she does. However, I agree that, as a consequence, she will be able to continue to use magic not for herself but others. But that is why I think the very same about using GS. If she uses it, her SG becomes cleaner, she will be able to continue on her way of justice. Using it can be viewed as not a selfish act, just like healing. There's a difference but it can be compared, that's why I fail to see why she thinks healing is a big yes yes because that's basically using magic for yourself, but using GS is a big no no for some reason even if that's just as important as healing yourself. Just because I fail to see the reason does not mean I don't understand it though. Like I said, I sympathize with her and I like her as well but I think she's been stupid.

"If it had been Madoka [...]": To me, the scenario that Madoka is 1) closer to the GS after Sayaka defeated a witch and 2) has a reason to do it for Sayaka when she can pick it up herself, is unlikely. And it's just a if-case as well, we don't know if she had used it or not if it was from Madoka. I don't deny the possibility, but it's just not likely in my book.

"I wouldn't trust Homura [...]": Of course you wouldn't, I'm not saying that is wrong. But that doesn't mean that you can simply assume things to be fact and apply it onto her without even trying to really get out info. Like I said, a simple "what are you plotting?" would have been enough, that would show she at least would have cared which might have resulted in a better understanding, even if not good. It wouldn't have hurt if you tried it the Madoka way. That's why I said, she sticks to something once she thinks of it to be the way.

Sayaka distrusts Homura, understandable. Sayaka gave reasons why she couldn't trust Homura, understandable. Still, my point stands that (if it weren't for the circumstances) she should have at least tried to question her. Sayaka sees no alternatives, she doesn't consider them even if they're not likely. All I'm trying to say is, this no-option thinking is a pretty messed up flaw of her if you ask me. It doesn't help the fact that all of those thoughts were negative either. Instead of thinking "Kamijou is mine", she thinks the opposite. Instead of thinking "You might be right Madoka, let's at least >try< talk to that girl. But if it fails, it was in vain", she instantly jumps back to the worst case scenario. Same with being a zombie etc.

Last edited by Vanish; 2011-02-25 at 12:39.
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Old 2011-02-26, 16:00   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
Sayaka assumes one thing, and then sticks to that, not being able to see an alternative.
Unfortunately, this is a very human trait. I've encountered it in humans many times. People, once they form their beliefs, very rarely want to diverge from them.

However much I like Sayaka, I restate that she is acting stupidly. In an idealistic series, she would have thrived, but it was her bad luck to be in this one. She is self-destructing over a minor issue.
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Old 2011-02-27, 03:30   Link #147
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Spoiler:


it seems the witch on madoka's dream is not sayaka,

then who ?
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Old 2011-02-27, 11:52   Link #148
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Well, Madoka's dream was probably from Walpurgis night. If that's the case, Sayaka is turning into a witch before that. It's possible, if this is a gathering of witches, then Sayaka is merely one part of the entity in Madoka's dream. She could get absorbed.

And I have to post this, because it's what I feel Sayaka's issue is and how it should be handled:

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Old 2011-02-27, 14:38   Link #149
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Well, Madoka's dream was probably from Walpurgis night. If that's the case, Sayaka is turning into a witch before that. It's possible, if this is a gathering of witches, then Sayaka is merely one part of the entity in Madoka's dream. She could get absorbed.

And I have to post this, because it's what I feel Sayaka's issue is and how it should be handled:

LOL at the video, kyoko, homura, and madoka should do that from beginning

Witch absorbing another witch ? hmm.....that's new
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Old 2011-02-27, 15:34   Link #150
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Witch absorbing another witch ? hmm.....that's new[/indent]
Uhh, I feel like the longer this thread gets, the more similar this situation is to a Certain Scientific Anime

Of course the big question is this, who (if anyone) will save Sayaka before it's too late? Will she have a hero or will tragedy strike before the hero has a chance to appear?

By the way, is the a tvtrope for Sayaka's character type?
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Old 2011-02-27, 15:42   Link #151
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Uhh, I feel like the longer this thread gets, the more similar this situation is to a Certain Scientific Anime

Of course the big question is this, who (if anyone) will save Sayaka before it's too late? Will she have a hero or will tragedy strike before the hero has a chance to appear?

By the way, is the a tvtrope for this character type?
Certain Scientific Anime ? Bleach ? Hollow that devour another hollow ?

From the last episode preview, it seems in the next ep, kyoko will try to save sayaka , but still failed in the end.

i hope she didn't die, i love her char. development lately.

btw....another visualization for witch sayaka

Spoiler for Witch Sayaka 1:


Spoiler for Witch Sayaka 2:

1st pic is interesting, the visualization fit with witchesque in this series

2nd pic is....creepy
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Old 2011-02-27, 19:51   Link #152
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After a long time thinking about it I've come to the conclusion that while Sayaka's descent in to madness wasn't a god awfully bad idea it could have been a little better with some more build up.

Also Sayaka thinking that she was no longer "human" and thus no longer able to be with her crush shouldn't have been the trigger. What could have been a better trigger (if they had a few more episodes) is how over time the job as a magical girl completely cut into her social life isolating her from family and friends and most of all her crush then would have been the perfect time to drop the whole Hitomi wants him too angle.

Any thoughts?
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Old 2011-02-27, 20:21   Link #153
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After a long time thinking about it I've come to the conclusion that while Sayaka's descent in to madness wasn't a god awfully bad idea it could have been a little better with some more build up.

Also Sayaka thinking that she was no longer "human" and thus no longer able to be with her crush shouldn't have been the trigger. What could have been a better trigger (if they had a few more episodes) is how over time the job as a magical girl completely cut into her social life isolating her from family and friends and most of all her crush then would have been the perfect time to drop the whole Hitomi wants him too angle.

Any thoughts?
I think that might have well been more effective, yes, but it would have required time skips (or a much longer anime), and maybe that couldn't fit in with the overall plot plan.

Still, good thoughts.
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Old 2011-02-27, 22:52   Link #154
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I think that might have well been more effective, yes, but it would have required time skips (or a much longer anime), and maybe that couldn't fit in with the overall plot plan.

Still, good thoughts.
Well there is always fan fiction to expand on the idea...any takers?...Kaijo maybe?
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Old 2011-02-28, 00:07   Link #155
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Heh, I usually only do fanfiction of completed series, and it takes a series with good potential for continuation to get me interested. But who knows? Depending on how Madoka ends up, I may just end up doing an AU to get a different version up. ;p

The only other idea I had for a fic, was actually more of a short crack one-shot...
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Old 2011-02-28, 01:18   Link #156
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Heh, I usually only do fanfiction of completed series, and it takes a series with good potential for continuation to get me interested. But who knows? Depending on how Madoka ends up, I may just end up doing an AU to get a different version up. ;p
Heh. I've thought of the same thing.

I definitely want to wait until this anime is over before I even consider doing a fanfic of it though.
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Old 2011-02-28, 01:32   Link #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venk View Post
Spoiler:


it seems the witch on madoka's dream is not sayaka,

then who ?
So basically Sayaka has turned into Soul Eater's Kishin?

Still interesting (and a bit sad) to get the visuals of what her form should be.
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Old 2011-02-28, 01:35   Link #158
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Damn...
Eventhough there is already a sign of Sayaka became witch, but it is still painful to see her turn into a witch...
And yes, she is creepy in her witch form...
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Old 2011-02-28, 03:37   Link #159
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However much I like Sayaka, I restate that she is acting stupidly. In an idealistic series, she would have thrived, but it was her bad luck to be in this one. She is self-destructing over a minor issue.
Sayaka's a main character who found herself in the wrong genre. Her character, her belief could've mean a lot more and be a major strength has it been in other series. Such a way for Urobuchi to slap the idealism in the face.

Anyway, what single minor issue were you referring to? I saw multiple events building up through the past 4 episodes that just attack her sense of identity within a short time frame. It's true her blunt approach to things does not help with the situation, but to dismiss it as "over a minor issue" is still an understatement of the circumstances surrounding her.
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Old 2011-02-28, 12:50   Link #160
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Sayaka's a main character who found herself in the wrong genre. Her character, her belief could've mean a lot more and be a major strength has it been in other series. Such a way for Urobuchi to slap the idealism in the face.

Anyway, what single minor issue were you referring to? I saw multiple events building up through the past 4 episodes that just attack her sense of identity within a short time frame. It's true her blunt approach to things does not help with the situation, but to dismiss it as "over a minor issue" is still an understatement of the circumstances surrounding her.
The revelation of her soul in a gem, being outside her body. I suppose this one can be up to personal beliefs, but if my soul and body still exist and can still execute normal functions, then I find it logical to assume that nothing is truly hampering me from carrying on my normal life.

If Sayaka had never been told this, then she would have continued life as normal, perhaps even dating Kamijou. She never would have known that anything was different. So it's all in her head; she's driving herself insane, unable to come to grips with the fact that she is still relatively normal, and can still do everything she wanted to before.

That's why it feels like a minor issue to me, approaching wangst territory.

"The intended Woobie becomes a pathetically whiny character who insists on crying (often loudly and repeatedly) about a Dark And Troubled Past or event instead of, you know, trying to deal with it and stop being depressed all the time. Especially if said "trauma" doesn't come across as nearly tragic as the character thinks it is, making his lamentations seem way out of proportion."
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