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Old 2011-02-28, 21:27   Link #22081
AuraTwilight
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Huh? What are you talking about?
It means exactly what it says. Human tricks have covered the truth ("I'll blow everything up to shit and get away with the crime") and magic uncovered it ("Natsuhi isn't the culprit!")

Magic is putting human emotional interpretation to a coldly neutral event, even if that means hiding details, but not exclusively for that purpose. It's the power to forgive someone and accept the facts without judging someone as "evil." It's also the power to paint someone as evil simply because they are suspicious, even if there's no solid proof. Illusion is illusion,and truth is truth, but magic is when they come together, and that coming together need not be deceptive or a lie.

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Was that a joke? If you played EP8 you should know that Kumasawa was not the artist.
No, I was being completely serious when I said Kumasawa was Clair. *eyeroll*
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Old 2011-02-28, 21:28   Link #22082
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That could be a hint that she just didn't know her very well at all. Maria may have intended to introduce them... something "Beatrice" never learned. But Ange rejected Maria.
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Old 2011-02-28, 21:49   Link #22083
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It means exactly what it says. Human tricks have covered the truth ("I'll blow everything up to shit and get away with the crime") and magic uncovered it ("Natsuhi isn't the culprit!")
How was that statement "magic"? I don't think red truths were ever intended to represent "magic". If that were true then Erika would be totally fine with "magic".

No you got it all wrong. Magic is at best an embellishment nowhere it was said that magic uncovers the truth.
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Old 2011-02-28, 22:13   Link #22084
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Besides, are we forgetting that if there was a crime (and maybe there was not), someone is guilty of that crime? Let's feel bad for the potential pain dealt to the good, yes, but why are we not willing to punish the evil? If the Rokkenjima incident was a murder, don't we deserve to know who that murderer was? It's not fair to everyone involved otherwise. Gohda's name deserves to be clean as much as Kyrie's (or George's, or Yasu's, or Battler's , or nobody's) deserves to be called out for their crime. There is actually a valid justice-based motive to unveiling what occurred.
Well, it depends.

What do you think should be done with the dead? Should we have a funeral for them and try to remember the best parts of who they were? Or should we tear out their guts, read their diaries, and expose everything bad about them to the world.

EP7 is probably a pretty good idea of what happened. The background scenes from the diary hint that its not too far off. Bern literally exposes all of a corpses insides to the world and shows the worst parts of each of the character. That's the kind of justice you want, the guilt and onus of crime to rest on a pair of shoulders.

As Kyrie says to Eva "You're just a murderer who didn't get the chance." That can be said of most of the characters on Rokkenjima.

If we want to go with the "truth" we get a family of murderers who would kill each other for greed. And a tormented soul, with a broken body, divided love, surrendering his/her will to fate because they were dealt a hand they couldn't handle.

That's the story.

So, what we get offered, is the chance to say "They may be that... but they are also this" and show the best of who they are rather than the very worst.

The only people who seem to really be under suspicion for the crime are the Ushiromiya family. Nanjo's son doesn't seem to worry about his family. The same probably applies to Gohda's family. And it seems like Kumasawa and Genji really only had the Ushiromiya family. So that leaves Ange as the only living person with a real stake. It's her family.

So she can either watch their guts and lies exposed, or she can have the knowledge that they weren't all horrible and so that she can get the closure she needs to stop searching for the Truth and to instead move on with her life.

No one can be put on Trial or made to answer for the crime-- they are all dead.

There is nothing dignified about reaching into opening the coffin that is Rokkenjima and there is no justice to be had. The desire to punish evil is no more noble than the desire to spell "Murderer" in piss on one or more of the graves of the dead.
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Old 2011-02-28, 22:29   Link #22085
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Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
The desire to punish evil is no more noble than the desire to spell "Murderer" in piss on one or more of the graves of the dead.
Wow... that's great... you just insulted the whole justice system.


btw

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And it seems like Kumasawa and Genji really only had the Ushiromiya family.
poor Sabakichi...
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Old 2011-02-28, 23:06   Link #22086
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How was that statement "magic"? I don't think red truths were ever intended to represent "magic". If that were true then Erika would be totally fine with "magic".
Blue Truth is the power of human evidence. Red Truth is the witch's power to be absolutely certain beyond a human doubt. You figure it out.

And, you know, Erika's kind of a hypocrite in more ways than one, but in this case she describes that she hates everything that hides the truth in any way.

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No you got it all wrong. Magic is at best an embellishment nowhere it was said that magic uncovers the truth.
You're not really good at this whole deductive reasoning thing. It's really condescending when you say someone's wrong about something but you refuse to let them connect dots because it wasn't done for you.

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Wow... that's great... you just insulted the whole justice system.
While I don't agree with Mirrored and side with Renall on this issue, he does have a BIT of a point. While the innocents deserve to have their names cleared and the surviving families reassured, reversing that into a desire to find the culprit and reveal their black nature, like Erika does, is a spiteful hobby with no moral motivation behind it.
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Old 2011-02-28, 23:47   Link #22087
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Blue Truth is the power of human evidence. Red Truth is the witch's power to be absolutely certain beyond a human doubt. You figure it out.
That's really not the "magic" we are talking about here. "Magic" in Umineko has a precise meaning.

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You're not really good at this whole deductive reasoning thing. It's really condescending when you say someone's wrong about something but you refuse to let them connect dots because it wasn't done for you.
What exactly is that supposed to mean? I'm not good at deductive reasoning because I claim you're wrong? Nice logic.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
While I don't agree with Mirrored and side with Renall on this issue, he does have a BIT of a point. While the innocents deserve to have their names cleared and the surviving families reassured, reversing that into a desire to find the culprit and reveal their black nature, like Erika does, is a spiteful hobby with no moral motivation behind it.
I think mirrored is a clear example of what I was talking about. He received and absorbed Ryuukishi's message completely. Those who seek the truth are represented by heartless bastards. The act of exposing the truth has been compared to a slaughter.

You have a mass murderer from one side but... alas poor scrappy...

On the other side you have someone who wants to expose the truth of that crime... what a heartless bastard!

I don't think there are words to express how much wrong this is.


The fact that there are people that actually buy this and that redirect their contempt from the criminal to the one that wants to expose the crime... is simply terrifying...
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Old 2011-02-28, 23:50   Link #22088
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
While I don't agree with Mirrored and side with Renall on this issue, he does have a BIT of a point. While the innocents deserve to have their names cleared and the surviving families reassured, reversing that into a desire to find the culprit and reveal their black nature, like Erika does, is a spiteful hobby with no moral motivation behind it.
I think what Ryukishi was really talking about wasn't just about finding out the truth but the interpretation of it that invariably follows. The interpretation can't be done objectively unless you know the whole truth so that in a situation where most of it was blown to bits, it will most likely be biased.


For example it could be that Kyrie did go around shooting people in Rokkenjima according to Eva's diary. But (if the EP7 TP is to be believed) Eva seemed to have made up some ideas that Kyrie was psycho and that's why she did it. Or in EP8 people concluded that because she had some shady connections that she and Rudolf were psycho killers. This part isn't really about finding out the truth, but forcing the facts to fit the ideas.

It'd be just as sick if you write a sugary-sweet story about how the whole family loved each other and everything was just awesome as Battler almost did at the beginning of EP8. (I guess he was trying to fight Ange's biases by going to the opposite end... heh)

We were just as pissed off at Erika when she did this to Natsuhi. It was true (in the the EP5 story at least) that she hid Kinzo's death and went around suspiciously when the 'murders' occurred. This is the truth. But the reading of the diary and the accusations that she was Kinzo's lover were ideas that Erika forced the facts to fit.


I believe what Ange decided to do at the end of EP8 is very similar here, that it was best to let the dead rest. I personally don't 100% agree with it but I can appreciate this point of view. Even if a crime had been committed, especially a murder-suicide, that in the end (as long as there were no more culprits to apprehend) it may be better to just let it go...
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Old 2011-02-28, 23:53   Link #22089
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Wow... that's great... you just insulted the whole justice system.
While I wouldn't side with Mirrored on the whole scale, he has a point.
In the end our so called justice systems in the world are nothing more than organized revenge and retribution justified by a self-constructed moral.
Somebody has been wronged so the culprit must be wronged in return to make it right again. In the end locking somebody up or sentencing him to death is not about any kind of natural justice, it is about revenge and is done for those who feel wronged. I myself would want the murderer of my relatives to be punished, as long as it is somebody I don't have a probably even stronger relation to.
If your father murdered your mother, would you want your father to be punished?
Maybe, but what if your mother was a terrible woman who threatened to kill you but you cannot prove it? Your father would have done something good, but he would have to be punished because of what...justice?!
Of course we need that justice or else we wouldn't be able to uphold states and nations, not even families. But that does not mean we shouldn't question them from time to time and accept their flaws in individual places.

Some people here also talk about the innocent victims of Rokkenjima. But I am let asking myself who was really innocent in the end?
Dr Nanjo? The one who probably delivered the baby and knew all about the girl kept prisoner on the island?
Genji? Who was basically Kinz˘'s right hand and had the heir of Kinz˘ and Beatrice Castiglioni be put into the house as a servant to reinact his masters delusions?
Kumasawa? Who idly stood by while one girl was kept prisoner on the island and another was unhappy her whole life?
Or Gohda? A pathetic coward who wouldn't even start to question the obvious problems at the house in favour of money and fame?

There were no innocent people on Rokkenjima, probably, in a judicial sense there were only guilty people on Rokkenjima...but does that mean there were no good people on Rokkenjima?!
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:02   Link #22090
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think mirrored is a clear example of what I was talking about. He received and absorbed Ryuukishi's message completely. Those who seek the truth are represented by heartless bastards. The act of exposing the truth has been compared to a slaughter.

You have a mass murderer from one side but... alas poor scrappy...

On the other side you have someone who wants to expose the truth of that crime... what a heartless bastard!

I don't think there are words to express how much wrong this is.


The fact that there are people that actually buy this and that redirect their contempt from the criminal to the one that wants to expose the crime... is simply terrifying...
That doesn't seem like what's going on with Ryukishi's message. The heartless bastards who want to expose the truth, as you say aren't just people after the truth. They're after their own interpretation of the truth as an outside, unconcerned third party, only interested in the gory details of death and destruction.

Like people who want to watch snuff movies with the excuse that they're 'researching' for the sake of hunting down the culprit. HERP DERP.


The only person in the whole Rokkenjima Prime world who is not an unconcerned third party is Ange, who does deserve to learn the truth. Despite the attacks on Battler's methods here, I remember very clearly that Battler both gave her the key to unlock the diary and said that in the end he would've let her have it. (Of course, Ange just started screaming like a little brat about how Battler was only interested in feeding her lies. I'm sure we're not supposed to agree to that extreme view of events... right?)

And in the end, she did learn the truth, despite Battler thinking she wasn't ready for it. And she wasn't ready for it; she got turned into Ange burger again.

It seems like THAT's the message to me. That there's truth that you can not be ready for because your mind has been poisoned with bias. But if you look at the story Ange eventually recovered from it and was able to understand it.
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:21   Link #22091
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
While I wouldn't side with Mirrored on the whole scale, he has a point.
In the end our so called justice systems in the world are nothing more than organized revenge and retribution justified by a self-constructed moral.
Somebody has been wronged so the culprit must be wronged in return to make it right again. In the end locking somebody up or sentencing him to death is not about any kind of natural justice, it is about revenge and is done for those who feel wronged. I myself would want the murderer of my relatives to be punished, as long as it is somebody I don't have a probably even stronger relation to.
If your father murdered your mother, would you want your father to be punished?
Maybe, but what if your mother was a terrible woman who threatened to kill you but you cannot prove it? Your father would have done something good, but he would have to be punished because of what...justice?!
Of course we need that justice or else we wouldn't be able to uphold states and nations, not even families. But that does not mean we shouldn't question them from time to time and accept their flaws in individual places.

Some people here also talk about the innocent victims of Rokkenjima. But I am let asking myself who was really innocent in the end?
Dr Nanjo? The one who probably delivered the baby and knew all about the girl kept prisoner on the island?
Genji? Who was basically Kinz˘'s right hand and had the heir of Kinz˘ and Beatrice Castiglioni be put into the house as a servant to reinact his masters delusions?
Kumasawa? Who idly stood by while one girl was kept prisoner on the island and another was unhappy her whole life?
Or Gohda? A pathetic coward who wouldn't even start to question the obvious problems at the house in favour of money and fame?

There were no innocent people on Rokkenjima, probably, in a judicial sense there were only guilty people on Rokkenjima...but does that mean there were no good people on Rokkenjima?!

Some people see justice as nothing but revenge, but that's not how justice should be. There's a reason we don't have death penalty here in Europe. However that's a long shot from saying that one shouldn't get punished at all.

If my father killed my mother I'd want him to be punished? Imagine what Battler would answer if you asked him that question. I think he's never been really forgiving to his father.

The other example you made wasn't a good one. If someone kills in self defense or to protect others he's not accountable of murder. If someone who did that still gets incriminated for lack of evidence, that's simply not justice.


As for the list of guilts, you are perfectly right on those, but then do you think they deserve to be remembered as perfectly good and honest persons?
I don't see anything wrong in exposing their crimes, that might be degrading for their memories, but that's their damn fault!
If you want to be forgiving, forgive them after you know what they did. Not knowing what they did isn't being forgiving, it's just being ignorant.


Quote:
I remember very clearly that Battler both gave her the key to unlock the diary and said that in the end he would've let her have it
I remember very clearly that he forbade her to use her key on that diary!
The way I got it, Battler gave her the freedom to use her key on anything except that diary.
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:31   Link #22092
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That's really not the "magic" we are talking about here. "Magic" in Umineko has a precise meaning.
It's given more than one meaning. You're just ignoring that.

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What exactly is that supposed to mean? I'm not good at deductive reasoning because I claim you're wrong? Nice logic.
See above. You're claiming I'm wrong because you're only accepting one definition of magic given in Umineko, even though more than one is given even from a "Mystery/Human" standpoint.

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The fact that there are people that actually buy this and that redirect their contempt from the criminal to the one that wants to expose the crime... is simply terrifying...
I'll agree with you here; though in fairness any claims that Erika has no intentions but to find out the truth is bullshit. She's demonstrated that she doesn't want THE truth, she wants A truth that can satisfy her question, and will then proceed to use it to humiliate and hurt innocent people.

While condemning all of the truth seekers is wrong, Erika herself sort of deserves it.

Quote:
The only person in the whole Rokkenjima Prime world who is not an unconcerned third party is Ange, who does deserve to learn the truth. Despite the attacks on Battler's methods here, I remember very clearly that Battler both gave her the key to unlock the diary and said that in the end he would've let her have it. (Of course, Ange just started screaming like a little brat about how Battler was only interested in feeding her lies. I'm sure we're not supposed to agree to that extreme view of events... right?)
Before the servants' families are brought into this, I'd like to point out that absolutely none of them wanted to uncover events, put their hands over their ears, and tried to get on with their lives. Though they bought into incorrect and sad ideas, they decided they'd rather not know in case it would hurt them. While they deserve to know in a sense, there's a running theme in the work about how people only receive miracles or certainty if they work for it.

Ange is the only surviving character who tried to discover the truth.

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I remember very clearly that he forbade her to use her key on that diary!
The way I got it, Battler gave her the freedom to use her key on anything except that diary.
I will point out that specific diary represents "the best possible tale for Beatrice and [Battler]". It is not the truth, and it was never purported to be. It's a romantic fiction to let Beatrice dream peacefully forever.
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Old 2011-03-01, 00:38   Link #22093
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's given more than one meaning. You're just ignoring that.
I'm not ignoring it, it's simply not true. This just your personal interpretation: since it's supernatural it's magic, that might work in a general context but not in Umineko.

Anyway this has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about: the choice between "magic" and "trick". That "magic" has absolutely nothing to do with red truths.


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I'll agree with you here; though in fairness any claims that Erika has no intentions but to find out the truth is bullshit. She's demonstrated that she doesn't want THE truth, she wants A truth that can satisfy her question, and will then proceed to use it to humiliate and hurt innocent people.

While condemning all of the truth seekers is wrong, Erika herself sort of deserves it.
Of course I'm the first to say that Erika is a negative characters. My problem is that she was strongly associated with the search for the truth, which gives the wrong idea that "who searches the truth = Erika", idea that is being reinforced by the fact that the Ange that chooses the truth in the end becomes Erika.
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Old 2011-03-01, 01:07   Link #22094
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I'm not ignoring it, it's simply not true. This just your personal interpretation: since it's supernatural it's magic, that might work in a general context but not in Umineko.

Anyway this has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about: the choice between "magic" and "trick". That "magic" has absolutely nothing to do with red truths.
That's not what I was saying. It's almost like you haven't been reading. Magic can be the power of astronomical odds; it can be the power to be totally certain about something and never have to doubt; it can be the power to create ideas out of nothing or to have those ideas not be forgotten for all eternity.

It's the power to push pain onto another. It's the power to wash hatred away and turn monsters into pitiable persons. It's the power to see anything that you couldn't see before; sometimes that is a delusion or an embellishment, but sometimes it can be as divine revelation.

This is all shit said in the novel practically word for word.

Quote:
Of course I'm the first to say that Erika is a negative characters. My problem is that she was strongly associated with the search for the truth, which gives the wrong idea that "who searches the truth = Erika", idea that is being reinforced by the fact that the Ange that chooses the truth in the end becomes Erika.
I'd like to bring up that the Ange of that ending is basically also adopting "Screw it, everyone is dicks. Fuck'em."
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Old 2011-03-01, 01:23   Link #22095
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Of course I'm the first to say that Erika is a negative characters. My problem is that she was strongly associated with the search for the truth, which gives the wrong idea that "who searches the truth = Erika", idea that is being reinforced by the fact that the Ange that chooses the truth in the end becomes Erika.
And I still think you are ignoring an important factor here.
There is more than one character in search of truth. Battler, Ange, Featherine, the Witch Hunters, Bernkastel, Erika, they all search for the truth and they all have different approaches.
The important that that has been pointed out by AuraTwilight several times is, that Erika does not search for the penultimate truth, she searches for truth in the sense of indisputable evidence. As long as something cannot be disproven it becomes truth. Erika does not search for the truth, she creates truth from evidence.

How is what Ange did in the trick end connected to gaining the truth?!
She decides to pass judgement because of the evidence she found, okay. We already disclosed that in the case of Amakusa it was probably even justified to kill him out of selfdefense. But the captain?! There was no sufficient prove that he has not been bought by her enemies therefore his innocence is more unlikely than his crime...that is the reason why Ange killed him.
She created the truth that Amakusa and Kawabata sold her over to be killed from evidence she found, but does that make it the truth?!

I also wouldn't characterize Erika as the antagonist of Umineko, she is just the opposing force to Battler's approach. I found both his ear-covering, song-singing ignorance towards the possibility of his relatives crimes, as well as Erika's ruthlesness and incapability to look beyond the mere evidence to be insufficient to reach the truth.
With both you can reach a truth - Like Battler's truth that an additional person who is pure evil killed all his loving relatives or like Ange's truth that her evil aunt Eva killed her innocent family - but the truth is something that exists on more layers than just rationality or emotionality.
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Old 2011-03-01, 01:53   Link #22096
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That's the best post I've seen hagurama make.
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Old 2011-03-01, 02:11   Link #22097
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What if, assuming the Meta-World is real, everyone can only survive there if the truth is let out? In the end Battler, Beatrice and the rest live happily ever after in a metaphysical plane, but what if the truth that they died destroys that?

What if Battler THINKS that? It could very much be like those Dream Apocalypse stories where an imaginary friend tries to keep a character from waking up and whatnot.
Or by preserving uncertainty about the culprit, it remains possible for each individual person to be innocent in some fragment. Nobody has to be damned.
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Old 2011-03-01, 02:15   Link #22098
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That too, if we go with the idea that there's no "Prime."
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Old 2011-03-01, 02:23   Link #22099
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I would just say that if one truly believes the sole purpose of a justice system is socially-mandated vengeance and retribution, one has an incredibly immature (but regrettably incredibly common) view of what justice is and why it is virtuous to pursue it.

That aside, no retribution is even possible in the Rokkenjima scenario, as the culprit (if any) is (probably) dead. The reasons for their condemnation would have nothing whatsoever to do with the retributive properties of justice and everything to do with addressing a wrong with truth, preserving social order and public morality by proving that there is no perfect crime, exonerating innocent victims, and granting closure to those tangentially affected. Not one of these things requires that anyone be punished, but they all demand truth for justice to be done.
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Or by preserving uncertainty about the culprit, it remains possible for each individual person to be innocent in some fragment. Nobody has to be damned.
The criminal (if there is one) deserves to be. They're a murderer! We can't let them spread their blame out and take innocence from their victims undeservedly. That's allowing them to victimize innocent people twice. It's wrong and it's unjust.

Besides... what if it really, truly, genuinely was just an incredibly tragic freak accident? Then everyone is innocent... and all speculation to the contrary ought to be put to rest for good. Otherwise we're punishing the memory and families of those who did no wrong. That too is wrong and unjust.

Truth is no one's enemy but a culprit's, and the culprit gave up the right to slink off into uncertainty when he or she resolved to murder innocent people.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2011-03-01, 02:46   Link #22100
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
In the spirit of abusing quantum physics terminology, are you familiar with the idea of "multiple histories"? For a closed cat box, you can either to take the view that there was always only one history hidden inside, or you can say that all possible histories existed inside the box until the moment you opened it and observed one. Are you really sure that the former is how Umineko's universe works, from a meta-world perspective?

Of course you want to punish the culprit, but which history are you looking at to make the accusation? Isn't that like taking a room full of equally suspicious people and arbitrarily throwing one in jail because you needed a conviction?
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