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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Rating
Perfect 10 91 52.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 20.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 16.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 6.86%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-03, 12:50   Link #21
panzerfan
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At any rate, Incubator is a being not of this world, and he stated that that it is easier to obtain entropy from the fluttering souls of girls (which indicates that the soul is a source of energy), but there being a loss of entropy in the first place baffles me. Keep in mind that the Incubator has suggested that Madoka can change the laws of the universe...
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Old 2011-03-03, 12:53   Link #22
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I only caught the tail end of the convo, but from my understanding the incubator process is just to make soul gems and shatter them, releasing their energy and using that for whatever it was they were using it for. The become a MG to fight witches just seem like a self replicating excuse to trick young girls into going into a rendering plant to become universe duct tape.
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Old 2011-03-03, 12:53   Link #23
scr
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Whatever the fuck QB said, it's trash. He/they has zero cred, if not negative cred. If the concerned parties will have anything to do about the state of things, they better start an independent investigation on their own part. If they value the well being of the world, they better quarantine QB and torture him for information, which are then confronted with field findings. And they dont need to feel any guilt doing that. Does the little fucker feel any guilt in his callous behavior regarding the information that others need?
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Old 2011-03-03, 12:58   Link #24
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Keep in mind that the Incubator has suggested that Madoka can change the laws of the universe...
Yeah, I was wondering about that. Although, Incubator admits Madoka would become the strongest witch. Now if the strongest-witch Madoka is strong enough to destroy the world or even the universe, that kinda defeats Incubator's supposed purpose. This would happen even if MG Madoka change the laws of the universe to save it.

I don't know, his story is full of holes....
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:06   Link #25
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Whatever the fuck QB said, it's trash. He/they has zero cred, if not negative cred. If the concerned parties will have anything to do about the state of things, they better start an independent investigation on their own part. If they value the well being of the world, they better quarantine QB and torture him for information, which are then confronted with field findings. And they dont need to feel any guilt doing that. Does the little fucker feel any guilt in his callous behavior regarding the information that others need?
The answer is pretty much no, he doesn't feel any guilt. QB is pretty much an amoral sociopath by most people's standards. It/them might be doing something that is at the time necessary though. It's funny cause there are quite a few characters with similar amoral, end justifies the means behavior that people love. Dr. House. Jack Bauer. L. That said QB is clearly the real antagonist I'd say for the series. So yeah they probably need to start asking incubator as many questions as possible since it appears to have no qualms answering anything, if you ask the right questions. Torturing it sounds fun too.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:16   Link #26
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The answer is pretty much no, he doesn't feel any guilt. QB is pretty much an amoral sociopath by most people's standards. It/them might be doing something that is at the time necessary though. It's funny cause there are quite a few characters with similar amoral, end justifies the means behavior that people love. Dr. House. Jack Bauer. L. That said QB is clearly the real antagonist I'd say for the series. So yeah they probably need to start asking incubator as many questions as possible since it appears to have no qualms answering anything, if you ask the right questions. Torturing it sounds fun too.
I don't think that's clear at all anymore.

If Kyubey is telling the truth, then he's looking to sacrifice one person to save the universe. Is that really so evil? Is one person's life really worth more than the whole of humanity?

Now if he's lying, then he's crossed a threshold here, and is the real antagonist, yes.

But to the best of our knowledge, he hasn't lied (i.e. say something that's not factually true) yet, so...

And Homura going back in time to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself to save the universe would fit with what we've seen Homura do and say so far...
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:18   Link #27
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I don't think that's clear at all anymore.

If Kyubey is telling the truth, then he's looking to sacrifice one person to save the universe. Is that really so evil? Is one person's life really worth more than the whole of humanity?

Now if he's lying, then he's crossed a threshold here, and is the real antagonist, yes.

But to the best of our knowledge, he hasn't lied (i.e. say something that's not factually true) yet, so...

And Homura going back in time to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself to save the universe would fit with what we've seen Homura do and say so far...
I think what we have against it is that we now know the motives he has never stated, and it is very different than becoming a MG for the sake of defeating witches who cause people to suffer. Perhaps a clearer deception?
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:19   Link #28
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@Triple R: He can be doing something great for the universe, have the best intentions, maybe even the best solution. Being the *antagonist* does not mean he is *evil* in my book, it just means that his means and method is against the protagonists. Which I believe to be true. I think we are kind of agreement honestly, I think you are just taking what I mean by "real antagonist" a bit the wrong way.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:22   Link #29
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Well... I dont give a damn even if it's a necessary evil. History proves time and again how the necessary evil are just evil, plain and simple. As recent as 20th century (and even now), people believed that war over resources is a necessary evil. Oil, minerals, metals, you name it. But breakthroughs in science render many of those conflicts unnecessary. Clean energy replaces fuel. Resilient, carefully gene-engineered crops can be planted in harsh lands. New medicines save those who otherwise would have opted for euthanasia. So I dont believe that girls must be sacrificed for the universe's continuing existence. If anything, the mechanism of the universe must be analyzed so that a win-win solution can be obtained; instead of listening to some dubious creepy little fucker who has been caught by tails again and again.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:22   Link #30
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By the way, additional information to add:

Oktavia von Seckendorff, the witch in episode 9, has a surname which stems from a Frankish nobility family. The name comes from the town of Seckendorf, near Cadolzburg in Bavaria. This family is rather prominent in German history in being statesmen and being generals, with Friedrich Heinrich von Seckendorff, a Bavarian Field Marshal that fought in the war of Polish Succession and Austrian Succession, as well as Adolf von Seckendorff, General of Infantry in the First World War as the latest example.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:27   Link #31
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Quote:
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I think what we have against it is that we now know the motives he has never stated, and it is very different than becoming a MG for the sake of defeating witches who cause people to suffer. Perhaps a clearer deception?
Maybe.

Either Kyubey's lying here, or he's not.

An awful lot now swings on that, imo.


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Originally Posted by ruurguy View Post
@Triple R: He can be doing something great for the universe, have the best intentions, maybe even the best solution. Being the *antagonist* does not mean he is *evil* in my book, it just means that his means and method is against the protagonists. Which I believe to be true. I think we are kind of agreement honestly, I think you are just taking what I mean by "real antagonist" a bit the wrong way.
Well, except that antagonists are generally in conflict with the protagonist. If Kyubey is telling the tuth, he may very well gain Madoka's full cooperation.

Still, I see your point.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:28   Link #32
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If Kyubey is telling the truth, then he's looking to sacrifice one person to save the universe. Is that really so evil? Is one person's life really worth more than the whole of humanity?
Did you watch the episode? Not one person. All the MGs were sacrificed. Well, not all really, only those who became witches. If I understood correctly, what InQBtor uses is the energy that is released when the SG shutters and turns into GS.

So after he takes that specific energy, the witches stay, and Madoka would be the strongest witch (as QB admits). What would be the point of "saving the universe" only for the strongest witch to destroy it soon after?
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:30   Link #33
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Originally Posted by scr View Post
Well... I dont give a damn even if it's a necessary evil. History proves time and again how the necessary evil are just evil, plain and simple. As recent as 20th century (and even now), people believed that war over resources is a necessary evil. Oil, minerals, metals, you name it. But breakthroughs in science render many of those conflicts unnecessary. Clean energy replaces fuel. Resilient, carefully gene-engineered crops can be planted in harsh lands. New medicines save those who otherwise would have opted for euthanasia. So I dont believe that girls must be sacrificed for the universe's continuing existence. If anything, the mechanism of the universe must be analyzed so that a win-win solution can be obtained; instead of listening to some dubious creepy little fucker who has been caught by tails again and again.
Sure, that is pretty much the point this series is going towards I think.

Also, just to deconstruct your argument a bit: Clean energy, gene engineered crops, new medicines. So how did we get power and electricity to make new molecules and do this research? At one time it almost certainly came from fossil fuels. Fuels you (as in your country or whomever is funding your research) probably fought over or traded for or something. What if you discover 20 years down the line that your carefully engineered crops are poisoning people and making them sick, BUT it is the only food source left in the world. Would you continue eating/making them? Or would you just die? There's a whole bunch of other arguments I'm sure, and I'm aware of how flimsy and hypothetical mine are as well. I'm just saying things really shouldn't be that clean and neat.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:33   Link #34
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Maybe.

Either Kyubey's lying here, or he's not.

An awful lot now swings on that, imo.
You don't need to lie to deceive someone.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:36   Link #35
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Spoiler for Madoka Magica 09 - To The Real:
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:38   Link #36
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But to the best of our knowledge, he hasn't lied (i.e. say something that's not factually true) yet, so...
In communication, it is often what you don't say that is more powerful than what you do say. Kyubey's greatest asset (in the anime at least), is his masterful poker face. Because we can't read his body language, we have to examine his words.

He's basically been giving out just enough information to manipulate others into thinking how he wants them to think. If I told you that food was going to go up in price tomorrow, what is the first question you would ask? It probably wouldn't be "but what about the day after that?". Now if I said that food was going up tomorrow and that the price would drop the next day, your question would be completely different.

By telling you the first statement, I can use that to manipulate you to do things like say....buy a ton of food immediately for fear of the high cost tomorrow. But if you knew that the price would drop the next day, you would just wait.

In our moral system, we tend to frown on this behavior even though it is a known business practice. For example, someone could post a misleading news article that omits certain facts, or publish a rumor of scarcity for a product when there really isn't one. A known practice in many stores is to keep shelves half stocked, to give you the impression that the item is popular and might be sold out if you do not buy it right there.

Poor knowledge of all sides of the story impairs your judgment and creates poor decision making. Compound this with say, strong emotion, and you have a recipe for disastrous decision making impulses.

Why Kyubey is the perfect person for this job is because he is disarming. He's a smooth talker, he's cute, he's never aggressive, and he "technically" doesn't lie. He's able to deflect criticism by saying things like "you didn't ask". He's the ultimate salesman.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:40   Link #37
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Thoughts:
Spoiler for ep 9:


I say this every episode now, but **** you QB
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:41   Link #38
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It's in the nature of humans to realize a mistake and then fix it. They know that there are problems with fuel (to put it mildly), and try to steer themselves into using clean energy. The same goes with crops. By "carefully engineered", it means that the crops are always under all kind of scrutiny, testing, etc to make it safe, for now and for the future. And things are _never_ clean and neat. Scientists make all kind of theories all the time, some has stronger bases than others, and then some of them are proven right (and become new bases) and some of them are proven wrong (which most people outside the labs rarely see). My point is that no one should be jumping the gun just because it's the most obvious action at the time.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:48   Link #39
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Did you watch the episode?
I'm not fluent in Japanese, so no, I haven't watched it yet. I was going by the spoilers provided by other posters (which previously didn't include what you brought up there).

I'm going to wait until I watch the subs before commenting further, given how things are perhaps more complex than how they initially came off to me in those earlier spoilers.
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Old 2011-03-03, 13:51   Link #40
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It's in the nature of humans to realize a mistake and then fix it. They know that there are problems with fuel (to put it mildly), and try to steer themselves into using clean energy. The same goes with crops. By "carefully engineered", it means that the crops are always under all kind of scrutiny, testing, etc to make it safe, for now and for the future. And things are _never_ clean and neat. Scientists make all kind of theories all the time, some has stronger bases than others, and then some of them are proven right (and become new bases) and some of them are proven wrong (which most people outside the labs rarely see). My point is that no one should be jumping the gun just because it's the most obvious action at the time.
My point was you are trying to make it clean and neat though. The fact that you completely dismiss QB as essentially evil is very much clean and neat. The fact that you think that with all our testing that twenty years from now we won't discover some flaw with your "carefully engineered" crops is clean and neat. People can put in every effort of their investigation right now, have all the best intentions of the best way to go for now and the future. AND IT CAN BE ALL WRONG. For all we know that's what QB in fact has already done. Maybe they tried 10 million things. And decided after research, the least damaging thing they could do was to find girls to go through this cycle. They carefully studied this, carefully engineered how it would work, put every effort to minimize the damage. And yet it's really really wrong. Of course the characters are going to fight it and probably find a better idea. That is how anime goes.
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