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Old 2011-03-02, 17:17   Link #22141
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Hint: Knocking people unconscious is not like the movies. In fact it's pretty damn hard to do that.

Running away is likely to get you killed if your opponent has a FUCKING GUN or anything like that.
Trust me Sherry knows what he's talking about. He was playing the murderer in one of our games at Golden Gameboard and I tried to disarm him and knock him out using nonlethal force and martial arts movie logic. The guy shot me in the fucking chest and metaphorically killed me. Running away, using non-lethal force, etc is an idiot's move when someone's trying to kill you.
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Old 2011-03-02, 18:54   Link #22142
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

And Battler was saved with the power of magic, and his sanity is maintained by imaginary and dead people. He's only able to escape that hell by giving up on the truth, and is no longer able to differentiate it from fantasies.
I like it. o -o)b
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Old 2011-03-02, 19:07   Link #22143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Let's see your opinion after you read the actual WW2 history of what the German, French, Japanese, British, Russian, US, or pretty much every country's army did to their adversary (or even allies) for the prosperity of their nation.
I have read countless WW2 and past-WW2 records and I have to say that's simplifying matters to the extreme, so my opinion stands the same.
It was circumstantial power of near-insane people who were forced to kill or get killed which drove people to do those things.
(I have to admit, germany's a different thing, we're dealing with a near-fictional level of antagonism here.)

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's not about sympathy, it's looking beyond the deed and searching for reasons, explanations and maybe search a way to understand what drove those people so far.
I would never ask anybody to embrace those people for what they are in that moment of murder, but to say that they turn into animals the minute they do anything like that is equally wrong.
Those are very romantic thoughts, which work in fiction but rarely in reality.
That does define having sympathy for a murderer quite nicely for me.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
If we have a deranged maniac, who has gone so far beyond social capabilities in his madness that he can never again function in society without hurting anybody, measures have to be taken.
Okay, that is so very, very wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Uh yes. Being emotional does not turn you into a moron.
Unfortunately it puts you on an equal level more than often though.

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NO ONE IS MORALLY OBLIGATED TO BE JESUS AND RISK THEIR LIVES FOR SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO KILL THEM.
Unless your name is Ushiromiya Kinzo.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Trust me Sherry knows what he's talking about. He was playing the murderer in one of our games at Golden Gameboard and I tried to disarm him and knock him out using nonlethal force and martial arts movie logic. The guy shot me in the fucking chest and metaphorically killed me. Running away, using non-lethal force, etc is an idiot's move when someone's trying to kill you.
We've had the same scenario with Rudolf and George.
On a similar note, locking yourself in a closed room is equally bad. Poor Kyrie.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I really want to clear up that though hagurama keeps agreeing with me, I don't agree with him. Please don't think he at all represents the angle of points I'm making, guys.
Dang it, and here I thought it was torch and pitch-fork time.
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Old 2011-03-02, 19:57   Link #22144
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Originally Posted by Shirozaki View Post
Unfortunately it puts you on an equal level more than often though.
At certain times? Sure. But I can safely say that I've never heard of someone blaming someone who killed someone in legitimate self defense.

If the murder was questionable, say no one knows who drew the gun first or something, then I can see the family thinking the courts screwed up(as they might have) but I've yet to see a clear self defense case where the murderer's family wanted blood.

Unless we are counting mafia families.

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Unless your name is Ushiromiya Kinzo.
Of course.
...Wait when did he turn into Jesus?
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Old 2011-03-02, 20:06   Link #22145
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There is such thing as unreasonable self defence, but I don't think anyone will accuse you of it if the other person was trying to murder you. Unless you keep attacking after they've clearly been disabled, I guess.
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Old 2011-03-02, 21:09   Link #22146
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Quote:
of course.
...wait when did he turn into jesus?
when he became magical halloween santa magical friendship grandpa kinzo.
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Old 2011-03-03, 04:31   Link #22147
erneiz_hyde
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Lol this is hilarious. I wonder what Sherry thinks about the guy in my siggy.

Also, Sherry, yes, I agree that no cold blooded murders deserves anyone's respect nor sympathy. Though personally, I wouldn't instantly condemn them because I would be curious to why the guy became what he is. I have no respect nor sympathy for Takano but at least I understand why she did what she did. There is a very human reason for every cold-blooded murders out there, at least that is what I believe (hey, humans are the least humane living beings ever so this is just natural for me).

One more thing, perhaps it would help to try to differentiate "Murder" from "Kill". Killing your assailant in self-defense doesn't constitute to murder (at least for me), but it is still killing, which is, by description, still a fundamentally wrong thing to do. And, I think(pardon me if I'm wrong) that is what usa'sHaguruma's position in this, yet you view his referring to "killing" in general to specifically "murder". I don't think usaEdit:Haguruma(sorry,sleepy) thinks that a remorseless mass murderer deserved to be respected either...no, he never said that I think. It's just perhaps his view on the matter is in a more pragmatic and broader scope, or at least I view the matter that way.
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Old 2011-03-03, 11:38   Link #22148
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I think you are looking at the problem at hand in the wrong way.

This isn't about comprehension and sympathy. You can even feel sympathy for a murderer for what I care, I can actually understand that if you are the murderer's father or wife. Even if you aren't related you can still understand the murderer's action if you know their sad background.

But all of that is irrelevant. I, personally, am not saying that you must hate the murderer, actually I think it would be better to never hate anyone (although it's not always really possible).

We are talking about justice here, it has nothing to do with sympathy, hate or sentiments in general. If someone did something wrong he must take responsibility for his actions, and the first step is recognizing his wrongdoings. Acting otherwise is just escaping from your own responsibility, it isn't going to help anyone, not even the wrongdoer.

You killed someone? You had your personal reason you did so? Good, but now turn yourself in. If you had special circumstances then explain those to the jury and the world.

The murderer is someone who died long ago? Then someone else in his place should explain what he did and why he did it to the world (as much as that's possible).


Talking about comprehension and forgiveness is pointless when the issue at hand is the fact that nothing is known about the true murderer. You can't comprehend nor forgive anyone if you don't know what they did in the first place.
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Old 2011-03-03, 12:01   Link #22149
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think you are looking at the problem at hand in the wrong way.

This isn't about comprehension and sympathy. You can even feel sympathy for a murderer for what I care, I can actually understand that if you are the murderer's father or wife. Even if you aren't related you can still understand the murderer's action if you know their sad background.

But all of that is irrelevant. I, personally, am not saying that you must hate the murderer, actually I think it would be better to never hate anyone (although it's not always really possible).

We are talking about justice here, it has nothing to do with sympathy, hate or sentiments in general. If someone did something wrong he must take responsibility for his actions, and the first step is recognizing his wrongdoings. Acting otherwise is just escaping from your own responsibility, it isn't going to help anyone, not even the wrongdoer.

You killed someone? You had your personal reason you did so? Good, but now turn yourself in. If you had special circumstances then explain those to the jury and the world.

The murderer is someone who died long ago? Then someone else in his place should explain what he did and why he did it to the world (as much as that's possible).


Talking about comprehension and forgiveness is pointless when the issue at hand is the fact that nothing is known about the true murderer. You can't comprehend nor forgive anyone if you don't know what they did in the first place.
Tho I generally agree with what you wrote, I do believe there's sorta odd grey cases. This is fictional of course, but when I think of Satoko's murder of her parents I think it's not so clear anymore.

I guess Umineko is hard to see in such a light unless there is no premeditated murders... and even so...
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Old 2011-03-03, 12:23   Link #22150
Jan-Poo
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Well according to Higurashi people aren't really responsible of what they do in L4+ phase.
Anyway even from a juridic standpoint you can plead insanity and that totally fits Satoko's case.

Of course there are grey areas, but it's very wrong to assume that the justice system doesn't consider those cases.

Come to think about it... Higurashi was also morally questionable... "a friend killed someone, let's help him hide the corpse!"

So I guess I shouldn't really be surprised by Umineko...
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Old 2011-03-03, 12:37   Link #22151
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Well at the very least it feels like Ryuukishi doesn't have the greatest trust in the ability of society to help a child like Satoko or Maria.

From personal experience I can also say I find the total trust in the justice system to be rather idealistic. That is be cops, investigators, lawyers or judges...

Edit: Also I bought up Satoko because ultimately she wasn't told what she did. It'd be sorta hard to not tell her while having a trial about her.
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Old 2011-03-03, 14:43   Link #22152
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Quote:
Come to think about it... Higurashi was also morally questionable... "a friend killed someone, let's help him hide the corpse!"
Keep in mind these are all emotionally ill children and teenagers with mob connections, murderous tendencies, and hallucination/paranoia problems.

Quote:
Well at the very least it feels like Ryuukishi doesn't have the greatest trust in the ability of society to help a child like Satoko or Maria.
When we were talking about real-life influences and how it affected our work back in 2007, Ryukishi implied that apparently a young child he knew (a niece? A friend's daughter? He didn't elaborate) was beaten to death by the legal guardian and the system didn't do anything because of a lack of evidence. I can totally see him being super fucking bitter.
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Old 2011-03-03, 15:39   Link #22153
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In one of Higurashi extra tips, he admitted the way he portrayed the system was complete bullshit and only "for the sake of the plot". He even apologized to them... how did he turn in such a douche in Umineko anyway?
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Old 2011-03-03, 15:48   Link #22154
Renall
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Bear in mind, it's also the 80s. Even if he doesn't necessarily believe social services are crappy now, back in the 80s with powerful forces influencing them it's entirely possible they would be that ineffective.

Also, while Maria is treated badly and physically hit, it's hard to say that people at that time would've seen it as "abuse." I got slapped in public a few times by my mother and nobody batted an eye. That would certainly be different today. And verbal abuse? I see that even now, and it doesn't seem anyone's rushing to take anybody's kids away.

Maria herself doesn't seem to see her life as all bad. You might argue she's hopelessly naive, but she certainly seems to think her mama is great when she's not being bad.
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Old 2011-03-03, 18:31   Link #22155
Judoh
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In one of Higurashi extra tips, he admitted the way he portrayed the system was complete bullshit and only "for the sake of the plot". He even apologized to them... how did he turn in such a douche in Umineko anyway?
You're right sort of that's one of the things he said in Minagoroshi's staffroom. Not really a tip technically. Although he could of said that so people don't suspect that he's bitter or as sort of a last minute disclaimer.

What he actually said though was: "I don't know how it was in the 58th year of the Showa Era, but the child consultation center is not a mean place like I depicted it in my story. I made the characters look evil, but in reality the government is the number one hero today to us civilians"
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Old 2011-03-03, 19:55   Link #22156
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Bear in mind, it's also the 80s. Even if he doesn't necessarily believe social services are crappy now, back in the 80s with powerful forces influencing them it's entirely possible they would be that ineffective.

Also, while Maria is treated badly and physically hit, it's hard to say that people at that time would've seen it as "abuse." I got slapped in public a few times by my mother and nobody batted an eye. That would certainly be different today. And verbal abuse? I see that even now, and it doesn't seem anyone's rushing to take anybody's kids away.

Maria herself doesn't seem to see her life as all bad. You might argue she's hopelessly naive, but she certainly seems to think her mama is great when she's not being bad.
And then I guess there's how reliable arc 4's Maria's diary actually is. In the same arc Maria crushes Rosa over and over and in later arcs their relations seems much better. Anyway I agree that Maria's case isn't really that bad, at least from the outside.

Still he did depict them as pretty useless. In arc 4 we're also told the Sumadera are using the cops to get Ange and do... not pretty stuff to her. Then there's people like Kinzo who does things above the law without ever facing legal consequences for them.

It might be all for the sake of the fiction but even then, it doesn't seem like Ryuukishi want us to trust the law system within his stories.
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Old 2011-03-03, 19:57   Link #22157
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I was wondering.

Spoiler for EP7; stupid question (to me):
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Old 2011-03-03, 20:02   Link #22158
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Yasuda is the name she was given to hide her identity as an Ushiromiya. Lion Ushiromiya is her/his birth name, then they were made "Sayo Yasuda" most likely.

Kanon/Yoshiya probably has no surname.
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Old 2011-03-03, 20:05   Link #22159
immblueversion
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Kanon/Yoshiya probably has no surname.
Well, Kanon is fundamentally Shannon's "brother," so...

Well, it matters not, now does it?

And while I'm at it, it's kind of sad:

If Yasu had gone through exactly what her mother went through, she would have probably been named Beatrice or something (unless Lion's existence dictates that can never be possible). And yet she ends up being Beatrice anyway...
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:46   Link #22160
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Considering the audience that Umineko is for, a name like Yasu screams 'culprit meme' so badly that I'd think that Yasu/Yasuda is kind of a red-herring name.

It seems like people on the English side aren't aware of this meme as much and so a name like Yasu seems 'legit.' I'd rate it on the same level as if Bernkastel named her 'Evil Culprit.' 8)
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