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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Rating
Perfect 10 91 52.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 20.57%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 16.57%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 6.86%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.29%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.14%
Voters: 175. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-04, 04:50   Link #201
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scr View Post
When you have no money, you're financially bankrupt (or at least can, or sometimes must, file bankruptcy). Thus when you (deliberately) have no-moral, you're morally bankrupt.

A sociopath is someone who lacks compassion to others. Good implies compassion. Henceforth, QB is Evil by the virtue of being a sociopath.
Huh. Psychological sociopathy entails more than just lacking compassion, compassion =/= goodness, bankruptcy of money is not directly equatable to bankruptcy of morals, and having sociopathic tendencies does not directly equate to evil. You're oversimplifying. Please get your facts straight.

Edit:

DSM-IV criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder (Sociopathy)

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-03-04 at 05:04.
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Old 2011-03-04, 04:58   Link #202
Xion Valkyrie
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It'd be interesting if QB was right after all, in that Madoka's sacrifice would be enough to permanently prevent entropy-death for the Universe, and also end the need for Witches/Peulla Magi. However, since Homura is unable to let go of Madoka, she uses her powers to try to prevent this every time. Madoka's original wish in Homura's own timeline could have been to grant Homura happiness, but since Homura cannot find happiness without Madoka, the wish manifests itself as a way for Homura to make that happen.

The ending would be that Madoka somehow finally remembers all of this, and decides to willingly sacrifice herself, and makes her wish for Homura to find happiness without Madoka to stop the time loop. World would be saved and we skip to an epilogue where we see Homura living a normal life with friends. Cue some apparition/look-alike of Madoka to walk by quickly. Despite not knowing who that was or why it caught her attention, tears roll down Homura's cheeks.

Not too original and slightly cheesy, but still better than any kind of ending involving some kind of deus-ex-machina solution, or where everyone dies tragically, or anything involving getting turned into tang.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:04   Link #203
Edict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar
1) The Entropy story doesn't wash. I've said it before, but just because QB was trying to avoid direct lies in the past doesn't mean that he couldn't do it if he deemed it necessary. I suspect that this is where we are now - his actions and deceptions have become untenable, so he's dishing up a huge confusing lie to stay in business. And coincidentally, the remaining offer ("die for the sake of the universe") hits Madoka's weakest point: Her readiness to consider sacrifice for the sake of others.
the moral dilemma is heavily contrived and essentially moot for lack of details. As a moral absolute of one form or the other it would not be prudent to fully accept the depiction when provided by something so naturally inclined to omit critical details.

it is easy enough to speculate if this method is the only one or simply the most convenient, how these issues compare to the universe's cessation, how responsible various species (one in particular) are in this supposed all-or-nothing situation etc
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:17   Link #204
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I see you're thinking along the same lines I am. I'll just respond to some of your comments though, since I'm still sorting out a lot of this myself.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
3) Based on QB's story, "they" (interesting how easily he switched from "I" to "we") "found" the power of emotion. But how likely is it that anyone would "find" a cyclic system like the MG one? Who grants the wish - the system or someone else? If someone else: Why would the wish affect what magic the MGs would wield? All of this doesn't fit at all. The way I see it, the MG system was _engineered_. A purposeful creation as means to an end. Not "found".
I see where you're going, but if the system is engineered then Kyubey is also the one who makes the wish happen. If he is not the one who makes the wish happen, the only other possibility is the girls themselves. This would suggest that there is a natural path to becoming a MG and Kyubey's version either corrupts it or attempts to supplant it with an artificial version.

Quote:
4) Sayaka/Kyoko final scene: Just showing a bright "boom" means for me that it will be relevant later in the story what happened there. Otherwise, we'd have death/disappearing/transformation animations. They're out of the picture for now, but they're not out of the story. We will see more than this.
Agreed, but I'm not getting my hopes up. It could have just been cut for production reasons as well. I mentioned in my earlier post the "corpse or it didn't happen" trope, but now that you mention it the "big explosion cliffhanger" is also extremely common too.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:27   Link #205
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One thing we have to always keep in mind, is that QB has been shown to be entirely untrustworthy.

Taking QB at his word had been disastrous to hundreds of innocent girls in the past, all because QB finds it convenient to not tell the whole truth.

I ask you; why should he tell the truth now? And why the hell would anyone in their right mind believe him, knowing that he is a walking fur ball of deception?

Characters can lie. And even more so, when we know he has lied before, repeatedly. I did not trust a single word that came out of his mouth up to now, and I am not about to start any-time soon.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:30   Link #206
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Why the tantrum about QB being an alien? There are other kind of aliens than Little Greys, Xenomorphs and Spock you know? Have people ever head about Shoggoths or the Great Race of Yith or the Mi-Go?

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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
This.

The whole issue of whether Incubator being "sci-fi" is a problem seems like a complete non-issue to me. Who really cares if it's a demon or an alien? Fantasy and sci-fi (and I love both, so don't start) are just words. Is Lovecraft fantasy or sci-fi? Or horror? Does it matter? What really matters is that Incubator is alien to the reality of the real-world 21st-Century human condition - be it magic or science is inconsequential. What matters are its motives and its actions.
I shall now quote it for emphasis. The difference that separates the revelation about QB's origins from the shit you have seen in shit movies like Number 23 and Identity is as wide as the Great African Rift.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:31   Link #207
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I see you're thinking along the same lines I am. I'll just respond to some of your comments though, since I'm still sorting out a lot of this myself.



I see where you're going, but if the system is engineered then Kyubey is also the one who makes the wish happen. If he is not the one who makes the wish happen, the only other possibility is the girls themselves. This would suggest that there is a natural path to becoming a MG and Kyubey's version either corrupts it or attempts to supplant it with an artificial version.
That's an interesting theory. It is implied that mahou shoujo existed prior to QB's intervention. He says:

"... soushite mitsuketano wa mahou shoujo no maryouku da yo"

...and that's when we discovered Mahou Shoujo's magic.

It is possible that if QB did not implement a slightly altered system for more efficient harvesting, that girls with potential would naturally develop into Mahou Shoujo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
One thing we have to always keep in mind, is that QB has been shown to be entirely untrustworthy.

Taking QB at his word had been disastrous to hundreds of innocent girls in the past, all because QB finds it convenient to not tell the whole truth.

I ask you; why should he tell the truth now? And why the hell would anyone in their right mind believe him, knowing that he is a walking fur ball of deception?

Characters can lie. And even more so, when we know he has lied before, repeatedly. I did not trust a single word that came out of his mouth up to now, and I am not about to start any-time soon.
Please give me one example in which QB has outright lied?

Up until episode 9, we actually had NO evidence he even bent the truth. We see in episode 9 that there is a possibility in which QB has outright mislead Kyouko, but that remains to be seen, due to an equal possibility that QB simply doesn't know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Why the tantrum about QB being an alien? There are other kind of aliens than Little Greys, Xenomorphs and Spock you know? Have people ever head about Shoggoths or the Great Race of Yith or the Mi-Go?



I shall now quote it for emphasis. The difference that separates the revelation about QB's origins from the shit you have seen in shit movies like Number 23 and Identity is as wide as the Great African Rift.
I don't mind aliens . Up until episode 9, I was secretly hoping he was representing the Elder Gods.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:39   Link #208
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Fine then, QB isn't guilty of lying, he is guilty of leaving out all the important information he doesn't want you to know. Happy?

Now, using past history, how many pieces of important information do you think he "convenient" forgot to mention in this episode?
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:39   Link #209
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I didn't want to respond to this for fear of it degenerating into a QB debate but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
One thing we have to always keep in mind, is that QB has been shown to be entirely untrustworthy.

Taking QB at his word had been disastrous to hundreds of innocent girls in the past, all because QB finds it convenient to not tell the whole truth.

I ask you; why should he tell the truth now? And why the hell would anyone in their right mind believe him, knowing that he is a walking fur ball of deception?

Characters can lie. And even more so, when we know he has lied before, repeatedly. I did not trust a single word that came out of his mouth up to now, and I am not about to start any-time soon.
Maybe I missed something, when exactly did we catch QB in a lie ? From what we've seen so far it's more of a caveat emptor situation rather than any direct lying.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:41   Link #210
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post



I don't mind aliens . Up until episode 9, I was secretly hoping he was representing the Elder Gods.
Honestly, I think it is pretty constant with Gen's favorite themes, what would appear to me as an asspull would be shit like, "QB WAS ACTUALLY MADOKA'S SECOND PERSONALITY ALL ALONG!" or "THE SERIES IS A NIGHTMARE! MADOKA IS STUCK IN HER OWN PERSONAL HELL WITH KYUUBEE AS PINHEAD!!"
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:41   Link #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
It is possible that if QB did not implement a slightly altered system for more efficient harvesting, that girls with potential would naturally develop into Mahou Shoujo.
Another way to think about it, is that Kyubey doesn't care about them being a MG or a Witch. What he's after (supposedly) is the energy released from the transformation into a Witch. To extrapolate from that, it isn't inconceivable that the Soul Gem is the entire key to how you would corrupt the system.

Human emotion is two sided. It's very difficult to be, for example, angry and happy at the same time. We're generally either one or the other. Now, imagine if you could "bottleneck" negative emotions, which are typically more powerful than positive emotions (rage, hatred, apathy, greed, lust, etc.). If you can't release these emotions normally, eventually you would "explode" into a furious amount of emotion. Like a psychotic breakdown, or a fit of rage.

So the idea is similar to other MG shows, where the good and bad guys can flip flop depending on how easily they can be tempted to change. Witches fight Magical Girls, sure, but in an uncorrupted system it would be a sliding scale and not an either/or like it is under Kyubey's system.

If this were the case, then Kyubey isn't lying when he said that he didn't know if Witches could return to normal. He just knows that under the current system such a thing would be impossible.


Wild and crazy theory edit:

A bit more thinking on this. We know that Soul Gems collect darkness simply from use. Assuming that potential is tied to emotional use, would it possible explain why Homura has not been so emotional until these last two episodes? To conserve magical power, and slow the rate of corruption?

More thinking edit:

This might also tie into his comments about different potentials. Obviously he can "read" the potential strength of a magical girl. This suggests he has good knowledge of how the system works. On the other hand, he admits that MG's defy explanation (paraphrased). He talks about how Madoka could be stronger than he is, strong enough to warp reality even. The wishes granted, the powers given, all defy the scientific reasoning he gives for the system. Humans normally can't summon giant spears, dump hundreds of guns out of their skirts, or stop time....so why would he give such a scientific reasoning for his motives? Ugh, my head hurts.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:45   Link #212
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Maybe I missed something, when exactly did we catch QB in a lie ? From what we've seen so far it's more of a caveat emptor situation rather than any direct lying.
I had to look up caveat emptor...

A sales term?

So you are saying the girls are stupid suckers who deserved to be deceived by a salesman?

Fine. But caveat emptor to you too, if you think QB is being honest this time.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:51   Link #213
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Fine then, QB isn't guilty of lying, he is guilty of leaving out all the important information he doesn't want you to know. Happy?

Now, using past history, how many pieces of important information do you think he "convenient" forgot to mention in this episode?
It is important because too many individuals are basing their "QB is evil" rants on their instincts / gut feeling. If we look at evidence, there simply isn't anything to support the notion that QB is evil or that he outright lies. Depending on your perspective, QB could be construed as a hero of his people and the rest of the universe, who is performing research on a backwater planet to solve this energy crises. No one is being forced, they simply exchange their lives for something which the backwater world's populace considers a wish.


QB himself states, while speaking with Madoka, "We can't understand what it means "to trick" to begin with. When you regret a wrong decision based on a misunderstanding, you humans tend to hate the other party for some reason... It's hard for us to understand the value standards of humans."

This is because most human beings, especially in the western world value the notion of "informed consent". All information of value is put on the table for inspection before we make a decision or become contractually obligated, etc. However there are many cultures, even on this planet who do not feel the same way. They will think, oh sucks to be you for not being as intelligent as I am, or sucks to be you for not looking at the small text. You'll learn from this experience and grow smarter!

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Honestly, I think it is pretty constant with Gen's favorite themes, what would appear to me as an asspull would be shit like, "QB WAS ACTUALLY MADOKA'S SECOND PERSONALITY ALL ALONG!" or "THE SERIES IS A NIGHTMARE! MADOKA IS STUCK IN HER OWN PERSONAL HELL WITH KYUUBEE AS PINHEAD!!"
Lol, the OP seems to have a few parts that imply some sort of dreaming, but I don't know if he's going to pull that... What is possible is that Madoka and girls are being harvested Island style by QB and his alien friends. Maybe they have created a VR world for them to grow and be harvested? Look at me, I'm supposed to be defending QB, but I just end up coming up with more ammunition for people to shoot at him with!
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:52   Link #214
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Wow.. Anyway the ED says it all. You guys are so hung up on trying to defend Kyubei that you're not even trying anymore. Moving onward to the Homura camp.

My final prediction, those fucking earrings on Kyubei are hiding his true form.
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:54   Link #215
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I had to look up caveat emptor...

A sales term?

So you are saying the girls are stupid suckers who deserved to be deceived by a salesman?

Fine. But caveat emptor to you too, if you think QB is being honest this time.
I guess that's what I get for trying to explain the situation as I see it heh. Let's pretend I never did that and leave in the part where I asked what he lied about ?
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Old 2011-03-04, 05:55   Link #216
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Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
Maybe I missed something, when exactly did we catch QB in a lie ? From what we've seen so far it's more of a caveat emptor situation rather than any direct lying.
QB: "We don't understand human emotions."

That's a friggen plain fracking lie. QB understands human emotions just fine when he feels like using it (to push a contract). See withholding all information causing distress and rejection from contract-willing girls. See the exploitation of Sayaka's Kamijou crisis to just be around in time for her to contract (I consider it very likely that QB incited the Kamijou breakdown leading up to it). See the kind of QB's final contract offer to Madoka ("Call me when you're ready to die for the sake of the universe").
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Old 2011-03-04, 06:04   Link #217
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post

Human emotion is two sided. It's very difficult to be, for example, angry and happy at the same time. We're generally either one or the other.
Except when your sad, but happy, or angry, but sad, or when you're super angry at someone for doing something stupid, but find it hilarious all at the same time?

All emotions are not on a single bipolar spectrum. Humans possess the capacity to feel many different things all at the same time. Some one would argue, that is partly what makes us such complex beings .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
QB: "We don't understand human emotions."

That's a friggen plain fracking lie. QB understands human emotions just fine when he feels like using it (to push a contract). See withholding all information causing distress and rejection from contract-willing girls. See the exploitation of Sayaka's Kamijou crisis to just be around in time for her to contract (I consider it very likely that QB incited the Kamijou breakdown leading up to it). See the kind of QB's final contract offer to Madoka ("Call me when you're ready to die for the sake of the universe").

Isn't that simply the way you are seeing it? You are interpreting QB's behavior as an individual who understands emotion, but you are making a fundamental attribution error? You attribute it to his "evilness" or his propensity to manipulate others, but isn't it just as likely as him simply not understanding human emotions? Is it so difficult to imagine what it would be like without emotions? It would be like a race of machines driven by data and ruthless efficiency. And how exactly did QB exploit Sayaka in relation to her "Kamijou crises"?

What he told Madoka was true. As QB sees it, Madoka is the ticket to producing a huge amount of energy. If this helps save the universe, then is his statement really false?
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Old 2011-03-04, 06:05   Link #218
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My personal theory is that this mirrors Bokurano in many ways , not just in grim darkness . I seriously suspect that Kyubey , too is not from the Madoka-verse, but rather , from a much much older universe sliding towards heat death . To forestall it , the denizens of that older universe are tapping and harvesting the souls of humans not only in Madoka's native time-line , but an immense number of similar time-lines. Even if Madoka was to wipe out this time-line , there are uncountable quadrillions more time-lines to harvest. All for the sake of a single ancient time-line , or perhaps a group of time-lines. It might be that overall , the Multi-verse of time-lines are close to heat death , though there are still numerous time-lines fairly far from heat death .

Or , the situation might not be as desperate as it Kyubey implies . Kyubey's native time-line is far from heat death , yet , rationally , it is best to begin reversing entropy now , than when the universe approaches heat death.


Which actually mean that , from the perspective of Kyubey's race , the Madoka manga , Innocent Malice , and the Madoka Magica anime both are real , and are in the same Multi-verse, even if they take place in different time-lines.
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Old 2011-03-04, 06:12   Link #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
QB: "We don't understand human emotions."

That's a friggen plain fracking lie. QB understands human emotions just fine when he feels like using it (to push a contract).
Understand the definition and characteristic of emotions and utilize it isn't equal to understand and have those emotions in your thinking pattern.

QB know what human emotions is and utilize it to push girls to make contracts, however he doesn't have human emotions nor understand the value us human uphold.



Up to this point QB never lied before. He just played around with words.
Hiding an information isn't a lie.

Think of QB words as Umineko's Red Truth.
It's 100% correct, but doesn't necessarily represent the real truth nor speaker's real motivation.



Just my thought:
Just like when Soul Gem gathers enough grief and turns into Grief Seed, Grief Seed may be able to release enough grief and revert back to Soul Gem. However, this has never been done before, because all the witches got hunted by Magical Girls, received new grief from their Soul Gem and then got dumped into QB, so QB stands correct when he said that there is no precedent in saving a witch. But he never said reverting from a witch back to a magical girl is impossible. What is impossible is for a magical girl (Kyouko) to save another witch (Sayaka). The reverting process has to be done by the witch herself.
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Old 2011-03-04, 06:25   Link #220
Zippicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
QB: "We don't understand human emotions."

That's a friggen plain fracking lie. QB understands human emotions just fine when he feels like using it (to push a contract). See withholding all information causing distress and rejection from contract-willing girls. See the exploitation of Sayaka's Kamijou crisis to just be around in time for her to contract (I consider it very likely that QB incited the Kamijou breakdown leading up to it). See the kind of QB's final contract offer to Madoka ("Call me when you're ready to die for the sake of the universe").
I took that line and following explanation to mean that his people were emotionless.

It's possible he knows how to provoke a reaction without actually understanding the reaction itself. He could be lying, but I'm not so sure I'd call this evidence.
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