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Old 2011-03-05, 00:55   Link #681
taofd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Anyone remember this?


I am Gen Urobuchi's secret confident!

Well, here comes another salvo of disconnected logic. This is what we have learned from Kyubey in episode 9:
-The total energy of the universe is decreasing. However, the emotions of humans have the ability to create energy.
-Kyubey claims that his race does not understand emotions. Instead, he is merely using those emotions to extend the life of the universe.
-Madoka has the potential to become the most powerful Puella Magi, and therefore the most powerful witch.
-Kyubey wanted Sayaka to die so Homura would have to face Walpurigi's Night alone. In addition, Kyubey collects the energy created when Puella Magi turn into witches.

First Impressions
Logic 1:
Kyubey wants emotions. The more powerful the emotion, the more energy is restored to the universe. Kyubey grants his contractor any wish they want. In exchange, they feel extremely happy, and therefore also create emotional energy for Kyubey to harness. But as they live the life of a Puella Magi, they descend into utter sadness. When the Puella Magi eventually turns into a witch, Kyubey collects the emotional energy at it's highest - complete despair.
No reason the emotion has to be despair. If it's just strong emotion they're looking for, wouldn't Love work as well?

Quote:

Logic 2:
This relates to physics. The law of conservation of energy (which has never been proven wrong, only modified) states that energy is never lost. Instead, it merely undertakes other forms; for example, the heat energy from a burning fire is converted into chemical energy (the reason why the logs are burnt) and light.

If that scientific law is true, then Kyubey is wrong. The energy of the universe is not decreasing. Something must be using that lost energy. If it stands to say that humans can create energy with their emotions, then it also stands to say that another being should be able to do the reverse: destroy energy.

Logic 3:
Kyubey has stated his intent is to save the universe, not let it die. If Kyubey is not lying, then his race must be working against some other malicious entity.

If Kyubey is lying and Homura is correct, then Kyubey (and his race) is that entity. Kyubey is sucking the energy out of the universe for his own means, but the universe is finite. Therefore, Kyubey is using humans to create energy for himself. The way he does this: Manipulate their emotions. Make them feel bliss, then despair. Kyubey's race has developed the technology to harness emotions as energy; the need for such technology implies that Kyubey's race also has the power to destroy energy for their own means.

How did you get to "QB must be working against some other malicious entity"? There has been no evidence yet to support this. QB has stated pretty clearly why he's trying to save the universe, and how he's going about doing that...
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:01   Link #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Deconstructor;3517661]
Logic 2:
This relates to physics. The law of conservation of energy (which has never been proven wrong, only modified) states that energy is never lost. Instead, it merely undertakes other forms; for example, the heat energy from a burning fire is converted into chemical energy (the reason why the logs are burnt) and light.

If that scientific law is true, then Kyubey is wrong. The energy of the universe is not decreasing. Something must be using that lost energy. If it stands to say that humans can create energy with their emotions, then it also stands to say that another being should be able to do the reverse: destroy energy.
No, Kyuubey isn't wrong. The subs did the physics injustice. What kyuubey mentioned about entropy doesn't violate the law of conservation of energy. What Kyuubey was trying to illustrate through the example of a log burning is that Entropy increases, in other words, energy is dispersed. Energy in the universe evens out, for example, when 2 objects of differing thermal energies come into thermal contact, heat flows from the object with greater thermal energy to that with lower thermal energy until they reach thermal equilibrium, i.e. both have the same thermal energy. Given that the energy evens out, there is no energy gradient for heat to flow, therefore there is a LOSS IN USEFUL ENERGY, EXERGY.

Basically, Kyuubey's concern is the spreading out of energy, or rather, the universe approaching maximum entropy. When that occurs, useful energy cannot be harvested from a homogenous system of particles. It's pretty far fetched imo since it'll take a very long time, if ever, for the universe to reach that state.

P.S. About the log burning, it's combustion of hydrocarbons, and releases energy in the form of heat. It's chemical energy being converted to thermal energy, not the other way round. This illustrates entropy as molecules bound close together as a solid is converted into gas, where there are more ways of distributing energy, hence entropy increases in the universe. The products formed from combustion, water, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, etc. are more stable than hydrocarbons in the wood, hence a reverse reaction is unlikely, therefore, no useful energy in the FORM OF HEAT can be produced from these products. That's part of Kyuubey's concern.

Last edited by KRegnard; 2011-03-05 at 01:11.
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:02   Link #683
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
No reason the emotion has to be despair. If it's just strong emotion they're looking for, wouldn't Love work as well?
Because Kyubey creates a contract with the magical girl.
He creates the conditions where energy can be harnessed. You can't just use people's emotions out of thin air. You have to get them to accept the contract whereby that energy can be harnessed.

Turning your logic against you. If it's just despair they're looking for, would not the world's suffering work as well?

I don't think you can convince me here.

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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
How did you get to "QB must be working against some other malicious entity"? There has been no evidence yet to support this. QB has stated pretty clearly why he's trying to save the universe, and how he's going about doing that...
It is a logical guess based on evidence. Bad stuff doesn't just happen in the universe; someone is behind it. Madoka's suffering is a result of Kyubey. If energy is being lost, it is not because the universe naturally loses it. There must be an agent at work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRegnard View Post
Given that the energy evens out, there is no energy gradient for heat to flow, therefore there is a LOSS IN USEFUL ENERGY, EXERGY.
I know about heat death of the universe. Kyubey is making it sound like the universe is going to end soon, if Madoka does not contract. Kyubey has never lied before, but he may be twisting the details to make the situation sound more urgent.

Unuseful energy is still energy. Yes, everything will cease motion, but Kyubey said that energy was being lost. I have to trust the subtitles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRegnard View Post
Basically, Kyuubey's concern is the spreading out of energy, or rather, the universe approaching maximum entropy. When that occurs, useful energy cannot be harvested from a homogenous system of particles. It's pretty far fetched imo since it'll take a very long time, if ever, for the universe to reach that state.
And why would you suppose that the loss in mechanical energy is so critical, the universe is at risk? Does it not strike you as strange that the universe would suddenly die? And that the entity who is trying to reverse that scenario, Kyubey, appears out of nowhere to fix that problem? The most direct relationship I can think of is that Kyubey is actually the source of that problem, and developed the technology to fix it out of a personal need for survival.
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:11   Link #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Turning your logic against you. If it's just despair they're looking for, would not the world's suffering work as well?
If it's despair they're looking for, how come they're not knocking down Nozomu Itoshiki's door?
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:13   Link #685
KRegnard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
And why would you suppose that the loss in mechanical energy is so critical, the universe is at risk? Does it not strike you as strange that the universe would suddenly die? And that the entity who is trying to reverse that scenario, Kyubey, appears out of nowhere to fix that problem? The most direct relationship I can think of is that Kyubey is actually the source of that problem, and developed the technology to fix it out of a personal need for survival.
I wouldn't. I did say that it's improbable given the time it takes is way beyond human comprehension. I have reason to believe that layman confusion between energy and entropy would result in inaccurate subs, however, I'm unsure of the Japanese terms for these and am unable to confirm the validity of the subs.
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:28   Link #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRegnard View Post
I wouldn't. I did say that it's improbable given the time it takes is way beyond human comprehension. I have reason to believe that layman confusion between energy and entropy would result in inaccurate subs, however, I'm unsure of the Japanese terms for these and am unable to confirm the validity of the subs.
This is probably too fine of a distinction for Urobuchi to care about.
So, I will transpose what happens if conservation of energy is not violated, but heat death of the universe is happening instead.

Kyubey tells Madoka that all the energy in the universe is quickly being rendered useless. However, from our own universe, we believe that will not happen for many, many light years. So what is with this sudden need for an influx emotional energy?

I think there is something greater Kyubey is not telling us. There must be a cause behind the sudden deterioration of mechanical and potential energy. There must be an agent actively sucking away all that useful energy.

Who is this agent, and why is it using up the life of the universe? If Kyubey is not lying, then he is working to extend the survival of the universe. Kyubey is working toward the greatest good.

If Kyubey is lying, then he (and his race) may be that agent. It is Kyubey's race who is using the universe's energy for their own purposes. And to fuel their need, they are coming to Earth in order to harvest emotional energy from humans.

The biggest hole in my theory is that conservation of energy is already violated by the concept of energy being created from humans. I think that humans are special (haha!) and are the only beings able to create energy in the universe. Perhaps Kyubey's race is good at using it all up.

Off to bed... hope there are not too many oppositions in the morning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
If it's despair they're looking for, how come they're not knocking down Nozomu Itoshiki's door?
Because Kyubey cannot contain the sheer volume of Zetsubou-sensei's despair. It would be too much for him to handle. The universe would EXPLODE!!!!!
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Old 2011-03-05, 01:34   Link #687
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Originally Posted by Zippicus View Post
So I'm still going to stand by my statement (that you decided to omit for some reason) that if you think something is impossible you certainly don't know of a way to do it.
I agree with you after talking it over with some other fans, but you're making your argument more complicated that it needs to be.

When Kyubey said "Well, that obviously wasn't going to work" to Homura, he may have been referring to Kyoko's specific plan of using love and friendship to save the day, and not the act of turning Witches back into Magical Girls in general. In which case, Kyubey never actually changed his stance on Witch restoration being an unknown.

Clever.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-03-05 at 01:45.
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Old 2011-03-05, 02:42   Link #688
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
I agree with you after talking it over with some other fans, but you're making your argument more complicated that it needs to be.

When Kyubey said "Well, that obviously wasn't going to work" to Homura, he may have been referring to Kyoko's specific plan of using love and friendship to save the day, and not the act of turning Witches back into Magical Girls in general. In which case, Kyubey never actually changed his stance on Witch restoration being an unknown.

Clever.
I didn't make it complicated, the script writer did

Everything QB says seems to be very carefully worded to allow people to hear (potentially incorrectly) more than he's saying, even though he means (purposefully incorrectly) more than he's saying, lol.

He's a complicated rotten little furball.
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Old 2011-03-05, 04:12   Link #689
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It's all moot anyways. The sheer trillions (actually, it's several orders of magnitude larger than even that lol) of years it'd take for heat death to occur is so off the wall, that the only people who find this excuse for QB's actions reasonable are the ones who didn't bother to pay attention to their highschool chemistry or physics class.

I mean, I realize science is rarely used correctly in fiction, and that I should just brush this all aside and accept QB's reasons at face value as shown within the framework of the show, ie: I should believe this is an issue that might actually be of concern to his alien race, but boy. I am having a hard time suspending my disbelief quite that far. Heh.

Anyways, utterly ridiculous motivations aside, QB is still the best anime antagonist in the last few years. I am shivering in anticipation for his ultimate fate at the end of this show.
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Old 2011-03-05, 06:50   Link #690
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The universe could already be in the state of heat death, but QB's race has been able to postpone it by harvesting Magical Girls.
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Old 2011-03-05, 06:50   Link #691
taofd
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Because Kyubey creates a contract with the magical girl.
He creates the conditions where energy can be harnessed. You can't just use people's emotions out of thin air. You have to get them to accept the contract whereby that energy can be harnessed.

Turning your logic against you. If it's just despair they're looking for, would not the world's suffering work as well?

I don't think you can convince me here.

What? I just said, "what if it's NOT despair". Please read a little more carefully.

Quote:

It is a logical guess based on evidence. Bad stuff doesn't just happen in the universe; someone is behind it. Madoka's suffering is a result of Kyubey. If energy is being lost, it is not because the universe naturally loses it. There must be an agent at work.
You are making a fundamental error. Correlation doesn't imply causation. And actually, that is kind of what the entropy is about. There is conservation of mass, but energy transfer is not 100% efficient, some of it is "lost" as light, radiation, subatomic particles, etc.

Quote:

I know about heat death of the universe. Kyubey is making it sound like the universe is going to end soon, if Madoka does not contract. Kyubey has never lied before, but he may be twisting the details to make the situation sound more urgent.
It's funny how people will believe him when he says "entropy" but not believe him about the details. Way to be biased and only hear what you want to hear.

Quote:

And why would you suppose that the loss in mechanical energy is so critical, the universe is at risk? Does it not strike you as strange that the universe would suddenly die? And that the entity who is trying to reverse that scenario, Kyubey, appears out of nowhere to fix that problem? The most direct relationship I can think of is that Kyubey is actually the source of that problem, and developed the technology to fix it out of a personal need for survival.
This may have been happening for thousands of years. And it is quite a gap to jump from, QB said it, therefore he must be the source of the problem. You have some seriously logical flaws there, sir.
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Old 2011-03-05, 09:48   Link #692
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Is it just me or does anyone think of Futurama now?

QB = Nibbler
Madoka = Fry
Universe Destruction/Witches = Brain Spawn
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Old 2011-03-05, 10:00   Link #693
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QB: "When you regret a wrong decision based on a misunderstanding, you humans tend to hate the other party for some reason"

This can be interpretated in two ways

1) It means he doesn't think he's at fault here, which means he hasn't been manipulating anyone (or atleast doesn't realise he has)

2) This is yet another form of manipulation. He's actually perfectly aware that he's been telling half-truths for the sake of manipulation and is now tlaking about entirely different examples in the hopes that Madoak will connect it to this case and give a false impression of honesty.

What was that quote about his species not being able to understand trickery again?
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Old 2011-03-05, 12:06   Link #694
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He says he doesn't understand human emotions or the human perspective. But he sure knows what to say and what not to say to get people to do what he wants. Seems like bullshit to me about him not "understanding" human emotions. If you know how people will reaction when you say certain things, you can read there emotions.
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Old 2011-03-05, 12:48   Link #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Be
Unuseful energy is still energy. Yes, everything will cease motion, but Kyubey said that energy was being lost. I have to trust the subtitles.


The subs are correct.

he really does say energy is being lost. Not any thing else like useful energy or the equal distribution of energy throughout the universe.

Thus why I say his story has a gaping big hole that makes it seem he's lying once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
I agree with you after talking it over with some other fans, but you're making your argument more complicated that it needs to be.

When Kyubey said "Well, that obviously wasn't going to work" to Homura, he may have been referring to Kyoko's specific plan of using love and friendship to save the day, and not the act of turning Witches back into Magical Girls in general. In which case, Kyubey never actually changed his stance on Witch restoration being an unknown.

Clever.
Doesn't matter. His intent is plain enough to see, tricking Kyoko into going down with Sayaka, taking those two out leaving Homura alone and in need of Madoka to win. Call it manipulation, call it whatever you will if you would defend him. It's clear from the scene during the credits that he's been planning this path all along.
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Old 2011-03-05, 13:27   Link #696
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
You are making a fundamental error. Correlation doesn't imply causation. And actually, that is kind of what the entropy is about. There is conservation of mass, but energy transfer is not 100% efficient, some of it is "lost" as light, radiation, subatomic particles, etc.
No, energy or mass is never lost. Never. It is 100% efficient, they simply take different forms.

The idea of entropy is that all of the universe's mechanical energy will take useless forms, thereby stopping all motion. That is different form what Kyubey is saying, that energy is actually lost. And that energy can be created, which is impossible in our universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
It's funny how people will believe him when he says "entropy" but not believe him about the details. Way to be biased and only hear what you want to hear.
Yes, I'm biased. Are you telling me you are completely unbiased?

Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
This may have been happening for thousands of years. And it is quite a gap to jump from, QB said it, therefore he must be the source of the problem. You have some seriously logical flaws there, sir.
That was only one of two scenarios I posed. The first one takes Kyubey's words at face value and says Kyubey is good. The one you are referring to assumes that Kyubey is lying.

And is it really unreasonable? There is always more to Kyubey's story than he initially states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
The subs are correct.

He really does say energy is being lost. Not any thing else like useful energy or the equal distribution of energy throughout the universe.

Thus why I say his story has a gaping big hole that makes it seem he's lying once again.
The very idea of Kyubey using human emotions as energy feels very evil to me.
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Old 2011-03-05, 13:50   Link #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
The idea of entropy is that all of the universe's mechanical energy will take useless forms, thereby stopping all motion. That is different form what Kyubey is saying, that energy is actually lost. And that energy can be created, which is impossible in our universe.
But he specifically says that's a "source of energy not bound by thermodynamics".
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Old 2011-03-05, 14:31   Link #698
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QB does make the comment that Madoka would be like a God. The whole Christian concept of God is that it created the Universe from nothing, or in other words it brought about all the energy into the Universe. Madoka from QB's perspective believes that she will bring about energy on a level similar to that concept I think.

I question the whole idea though that scientist say the Universe is "expanding". Isn't that tech wrong? The Universe has finite amount of energy that alters and changes forms but its still all there, no more or less. Its all just spreading out further and further so isn't it more accurate to say the Universe is "spreading" rather than expanding?

Thinking of it like a sandwich and your spoon a lump of peanut butter on the bread and than spread the peanut butter out. QB doesn't want the peanut butter to spread too thin so he is getting more peanut butter by the Witches.

It just seems to be an equilibrium problem. Everything is spreading into nothing to create something (The Universe).

But QB isn't solving the problem in the least bit. What happens when humans go extinct? He still isn't addressing the issue of stopping the lost energy. He is just digging for more oil so it seems.
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Old 2011-03-05, 17:54   Link #699
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
No, energy or mass is never lost. Never. It is 100% efficient, they simply take different forms.

The idea of entropy is that all of the universe's mechanical energy will take useless forms, thereby stopping all motion. That is different form what Kyubey is saying, that energy is actually lost. And that energy can be created, which is impossible in our universe.



Yes, I'm biased. Are you telling me you are completely unbiased?



That was only one of two scenarios I posed. The first one takes Kyubey's words at face value and says Kyubey is good. The one you are referring to assumes that Kyubey is lying.

And is it really unreasonable? There is always more to Kyubey's story than he initially states.



The very idea of Kyubey using human emotions as energy feels very evil to me.
I'm fully convinced you are a troll now. Did you not read my part about conversation of mass, and how I quoted "lost"?

And yes, you seem to be very biased. You change the facts to fit your opinion, not the other way around.

Even the digital animator has stated explicitly in a twitter post, that QB is NOT EVIL, but rather his values just DIFFER from us.

You can always argue that the director is trying to mislead us, etc but go ahead claiming whatever you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
I get the feeling that the animator is pretty adamant about what he said in defense of Kyuubee. This is how I read it. I may be wrong though.

ここまで観て、冷静な判断ができる人なら、超効率的に物事を動かすキュウベェに対して怒りの感 情を顕にはで きなくなると思ってたんだけど…
"Now look, I thought that getting angry over Kyuubee, who gets things done very efficiently, is not really sensible if one is to calmly evaluate him...


まだキュウベェを許せないと感じるのも人として間違っていないのでそれは皆 さんの自由です。
"Yet those that held that Kyuubee is unforgivable are not wrong, and are free to feel that way.

キュウベェは宇宙平和の為に行動していて決して私欲じゃないです。
"Kyuubee is acting out of the well-being of the universe, not for selfish reasons."

Last edited by taofd; 2011-03-05 at 18:01. Reason: my bad, not director
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Old 2011-03-05, 18:32   Link #700
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
I'm fully convinced you are a troll now. Did you not read my part about conversation of mass, and how I quoted "lost"?
Yes, but what you are saying is different from what Kyubey is saying. He says energy is LOST, not "lost" in a fake sense of the word. As in it disappears forever from the universe. Just like how emotions create energy, which is theoretically also impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
And yes, you seem to be very biased. You change the facts to fit your opinion, not the other way around.
I do not change any facts.

Facts from Kyubey
-The universe is losing energy
-Emotions make energy

Facts from Physics
-The universe is not losing energy

Now which part of the facts did I twist around? Anything I say other than those facts are my opinion. You do not think the evidence fits because you are biased as well; everyone is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Even the digital animator has stated explicitly in a twitter post, that QB is NOT EVIL, but rather his values just DIFFER from us.
That is because the animator/director/whoever you are citing is looking at Kyubey from his point of view. From Madoka and Homura's perspective, Kyubey is evil. And from mine as well.

I do not mind if you value the opinions of the director more than my own, but you cannot use him as a way to end the argument. Kyubey's values are different from Madoka's, so that is why Madoka can call Kyubey evil and Kyubey will align himself on good.
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