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Old 2011-03-05, 02:21   Link #22181
AuraTwilight
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That's hilariously creepy.
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Old 2011-03-05, 03:25   Link #22182
Keriaku
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Meta-World Theory: Reality-Fantasy Perspective

I just picked up reading one of the later chapters on EP3, "Real Magic", and it got me thinking about the meta world. Over the series of Umineko and Higurashi, Ryuukishi has presented situations where higher consciousness-level beings form out of people experiencing varying situations in real life. There are many aspects that can be regarded in a similar fashion, but I'm thinking specifically of three sets of people

Furude Rika ---> Frederica Bernkastel
Yasu ---> Beatrice
Eva ---> EVA-Beatrice

Higurashi as a whole shows the formation of Bernkastel from Rika`s fate in Hinamizawa. Evidence is the plot of Higurashi. Umineko as a story is based around the events of Beatrice`s formation. Evidence is exactly what we are told and what is shown in Umineko. But Umineko also manifests other, varying situations where the concept of these higher level consciousness' inhabit and exist.

One such situation seems to be out of Eva`s mind, who's creation is heightened by the atmosphere of the situation Yasu set up.



The concept of Beatrice in the context of being a title is interesting as it shows how these beings form and then `hide`themselves behind the title of Beatrice, and the veil of legend. I don`t suggest this is all Ryuukishi is saying though, as he does much more by creating a whole level of reality where living beings form and are on a plane of existence where this type of activity is even possible.

And if this idea is accepted, as prominently shown through the main characters Beatrice and Rika, then a similar form of the idea behind these beings can be applied to many different characters throughout the When They Cry series. Erika being a product of Bern's creations is another main example, along with the scenarios of ANGE and Sakutarou, respectably. The 'magic' or fantasy Ryuukishi talks about is having a human consciousness create something out of their mind, either through emotions, imagination or reality-crushing life situations. It's a form of fantasy that doesn't conflict with the normal world in any way except people's physical actions, but it's still there.

This leaves room for lots of speculation about the series, with a 'fantasy' oriented mindset that creates it's own set of answers, separate from the more real life 'mystery' perspective that could be held towards the series. This is exactly what Ryuukishi was talking about in the side TIP, Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy. I think the reason he didn't include it in Tsubasa is because it doesn't matter anymore, because the dice have been cast and the perceptions of his fans have been hard fit over the months through Chiru's release.

With this mindset, there is room to examine what Kanon and Shannon really are, and how their existence within the cat box has meaning. It offers interesting questions in what a 'backwards' relationship down from the higher plane to the normal reality works, as with

Featherine ---> Hachijo Tohya

As well as the interesting question of if this sort of reality-fantasy existed, and could theoretically bring happiness to girls like Maria and Ange, is that a bad thing that should be mocked? It also contains the themes of how other people wouldn't (don't) understand it, and the whole idea of perception clashing and disagreements of truth.

It also seems to suggest that the situation Takano Miyo went through in Higurashi, parallel to Rika's situation, was equally as reality-crushing. Enough to have a similar being born out of Takano's self and set of experiences. This would certainly show the link between Lambda and Bern. This idea is interesting enough to give Higurashi another look back as well.

I'm very excited to see what other aspects Ryuukishi chooses to show of his crafted world and setting. His pocket of 'fantasy' within reality.
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Old 2011-03-05, 03:56   Link #22183
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It also seems to suggest that the situation Takano Miyo went through in Higurashi, parallel to Rika's situation, was equally as reality-crushing. Enough to have a similar being born out of Takano's self and set of experiences. This would certainly show the link between Lambda and Bern. This idea is interesting enough to give Higurashi another look back as well.
I would like to point out that according to Lambdadelta's own viewpoint, she predates Takano, and just sort of met her randomly as she did Beatrice, which, by the way...

Quote:
As well as the interesting question of if this sort of reality-fantasy existed, and could theoretically bring happiness to girls like Maria and Ange, is that a bad thing that should be mocked? It also contains the themes of how other people wouldn't (don't) understand it, and the whole idea of perception clashing and disagreements of truth.
Lambdadelta makes it very clear to Beatrice that her witch-form and powers, this gameboard's existence, and all this special meta-crap is pretty much because Lambda lent her her powers, which implies that Maria and Ange just imagining up creatures isn't enough to make them real.

Ange was given power by Bernkastel though, and you could perhaps argue that Maria shared benefits through Mariage Sorciere; MARIA also being a witch is a necessary component of Beatrice's self image.
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Old 2011-03-05, 04:59   Link #22184
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I would like to point out that according to Lambdadelta's own viewpoint, she predates Takano, and just sort of met her randomly as she did Beatrice, which, by the way...
This is true, I forgot about this point. I'll revise my theory at some point. But this doesn't change what my main argument is, that Ryuukishi is presenting beings at this level of reality. And with this view point, there is ways to connect the dots between Lambda and Takano in some way, but there is much you could speculate about her background, so I'm not pushing this point.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Lambdadelta makes it very clear to Beatrice that her witch-form and powers, this gameboard's existence, and all this special meta-crap is pretty much because Lambda lent her her powers, which implies that Maria and Ange just imagining up creatures isn't enough to make them real.
Well if that's your argument, you must at least agree that Lambda exists. And from there, I'm just going with what we're actually shown in the story. There are varying levels creatures like Sakutarou exist at, and they do interact with other people on similar levels as well. I'm not saying there's no limitations on them however. And in one of the TIPS, Lambda's Diary, she says how Beatrice has abilities different than hers, that could be much stronger. A lot of what goes on involving this world is a matter of perspective. Being fixed and saying it's certainly like one way is rejecting the possibilities this point of view towards the whole series is implying.

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Ange was given power by Bernkastel though, and you could perhaps argue that Maria shared benefits through Mariage Sorciere; MARIA also being a witch is a necessary component of Beatrice's self image.
I'm not trying to argue against anything shown in the story, I'm just explaining ideas I've had about the connection between normal people and meta-counterparts. I'm merely stating the obvious that ANGE is a higher, more cumulative version of Ange, and it is true that Bernkastel had a hand in realizing this form.

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Old 2011-03-05, 10:04   Link #22185
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Lambdadelta makes it very clear to Beatrice that her witch-form and powers, this gameboard's existence, and all this special meta-crap is pretty much because Lambda lent her her powers, which implies that Maria and Ange just imagining up creatures isn't enough to make them real.

Ange was given power by Bernkastel though, and you could perhaps argue that Maria shared benefits through Mariage Sorciere; MARIA also being a witch is a necessary component of Beatrice's self image.
You can call me a denialist of all that is magic, but the way I see it the fact that Lambda gave her powers to Beatrice is as true as it is true that a demon named Gaap steals and hides stuff, or as it's true that the stakes kill people after you are ready to kill them with your own hands.

In my opinion Bern and Lambda don't do anything. They simply respectively self-style themselves as success obtained against overwhelming odds and success obtained through strong determination. Once someone manages to do so, they simply claim they lent them their power even if they actually didn't move a single finger.

That discussion Lambda and Beatrice had in the EP3 tea party was simply a warning from Lambda. "You managed to get this far because you had a strong will to achieve this, if your determination wavers you'll ruin it all, and things will go awry for you".

That's how I see it.
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Old 2011-03-05, 11:00   Link #22186
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You can call me a denialist of all that is magic, but the way I see it the fact that Lambda gave her powers to Beatrice is as true as it is true that a demon named Gaap steals and hides stuff, or as it's true that the stakes kill people after you are ready to kill them with your own hands.

In my opinion Bern and Lambda don't do anything. They simply respectively self-style themselves as success obtained against overwhelming odds and success obtained through strong determination. Once someone manages to do so, they simply claim they lent them their power even if they actually didn't move a single finger.

That discussion Lambda and Beatrice had in the EP3 tea party was simply a warning from Lambda. "You managed to get this far because you had a strong will to achieve this, if your determination wavers you'll ruin it all, and things will go awry for you".

That's how I see it.
For my reality-fantasy theory, there's no real reason to think that Lambda or Bern really do anything magical, or that there is any 'fantasy' interfering with reality in any way. All of the fantasy that manifests in reality is just simply philosophical concepts put into action. Certainty, truth-blurring, finding possibilities. I simply propose that reality is exactly as it appears, but this higher, philosophical world exists in parallel with the real world, fluctuating and being affected by these 'miracle'-like, reality distoring concepts and situations. The presentation of Umineko shows an overlap of the normal reality and this other level reality.

The only thing I'm suggesting is that one accepts the existence of this parallel meta world, which I think is a fundamentally different perspective then one that denies it as simply delusions and presentational trickery. This is Anti-Mystery versus Anti-Fantasy.
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Old 2011-03-05, 14:43   Link #22187
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I thought that Lambda's contribution was basically the ensuring that the bomb would go off. Or to put it in the metaphorical sense, the bomb going off implies the metaphor of certainty, as it was portrayed that the bomb never fails to go off.

(And not just the bomb going off but the whole situation that occurs because of it.)
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Old 2011-03-05, 15:34   Link #22188
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Well if that's your argument, you must at least agree that Lambda exists. And from there, I'm just going with what we're actually shown in the story. There are varying levels creatures like Sakutarou exist at, and they do interact with other people on similar levels as well. I'm not saying there's no limitations on them however. And in one of the TIPS, Lambda's Diary, she says how Beatrice has abilities different than hers, that could be much stronger. A lot of what goes on involving this world is a matter of perspective. Being fixed and saying it's certainly like one way is rejecting the possibilities this point of view towards the whole series is implying.
I accept that the Meta-World and whatnot exists, don't worry; I'm just disagreeing on some mechanical points. Beatrice might have different magic from Lambdadelta, but it's just a delusion without Lambdadelta acknowledging it.

It's been stressed that a witch has to acknowledge you in order to be a witch. Perhaps you can't enter the Meta-World or ascend to that plane without an invitation.

Quote:
You can call me a denialist of all that is magic, but the way I see it the fact that Lambda gave her powers to Beatrice is as true as it is true that a demon named Gaap steals and hides stuff, or as it's true that the stakes kill people after you are ready to kill them with your own hands.

In my opinion Bern and Lambda don't do anything. They simply respectively self-style themselves as success obtained against overwhelming odds and success obtained through strong determination. Once someone manages to do so, they simply claim they lent them their power even if they actually didn't move a single finger.

That discussion Lambda and Beatrice had in the EP3 tea party was simply a warning from Lambda. "You managed to get this far because you had a strong will to achieve this, if your determination wavers you'll ruin it all, and things will go awry for you".

That's how I see it.
You're looking at this backwards. These entities wouldn't be magical creatures MAKING things happen, they're sentient, personified identities of things that have already happened. Lambdadelta is an embodiment of Certainty, Determination, yadda yadda, and in that sense, she can be "appeased", with hard work, but she doesn't really make anything happen. It's like how the Grim Reaper doesn't go around killing people even though he has jurisdiction over death.

As for Lambdadelta in the metaworld and shit from an in-narrative perspective; she knows all the truth and she oversees Beatrice to make sure she don't do no bullshit, so she seems to act as a publisher. "Don't fuck with me or your series is cancelled, yo."
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Old 2011-03-05, 18:43   Link #22189
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I accept that the Meta-World and whatnot exists, don't worry; I'm just disagreeing on some mechanical points. Beatrice might have different magic from Lambdadelta, but it's just a delusion without Lambdadelta acknowledging it.

It's been stressed that a witch has to acknowledge you in order to be a witch. Perhaps you can't enter the Meta-World or ascend to that plane without an invitation.
Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm not saying I have all the answers under this theory, there's definitely a lot of room to fit in varying theories and interpretations.
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Old 2011-03-05, 19:02   Link #22190
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Out of curiosity, what's the general opinion toward kakeras? Do they exist?

Personally, i still believe in them even after ep. VIII.
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Old 2011-03-05, 19:12   Link #22191
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Not to get off topic, but I opened EP1 to take a gander at the order the chacters appear in, and, you know how, upon rereading, you find an utterly ridiculous amount of the dialogue foreshadows something, be it intentional or no?

I stopped (randomly) on Battler saying, upon meeting George at the airport : "Heheh, don't scare me like that, you just shaved 3 years off my life.
Yah, I noticed this when I went back after EP6 as well. There's just so much stuff that is hidden for us; we couldn't use it as a clue when we didn't know what was going on but afterwards, it's so hilarious.

"It's almost as if Kinzo had Shannon running around in a Beatrice dress." -- Natsuhi from early in EP1.
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Old 2011-03-05, 19:17   Link #22192
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Out of curiosity, what's the general opinion toward kakeras? Do they exist?

Personally, i still believe in them even after ep. VIII.
Kakeras are possibilities, so in the end it doesn't really matter. I think they do exist, but thereseems to be a "ONE TRUTH" that rises above any other possibility; perhaps that only exists in the sense of Ange's perspective having only one backround to it.
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Old 2011-03-05, 21:53   Link #22193
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Uhm what am I missing? What is that line about George shaving 3 years of Battler's life foreshadowing?

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It's almost as if Kinzo had Shannon running around in a Beatrice dress." -- Natsuhi from early in EP1
It's Eva.
There are other lines like that, for example Krauss says "My father is already dead".

Then in EP3 pretty much all the adults theorize that the servants just played dead as part of a game and that Nanjo just lied (implying that they weren't sure at all that the servants were actually dead)... sadly it was outright denied. Sadly because at least in Shannon's and Kanon's cases it's most probably true.

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These entities wouldn't be magical creatures MAKING things happen, they're sentient, personified identities of things that have already happened. Lambdadelta is an embodiment of Certainty, Determination, yadda yadda, and in that sense, she can be "appeased", with hard work, but she doesn't really make anything happen. It's like how the Grim Reaper doesn't go around killing people even though he has jurisdiction over death.
I'm not even acknowledging that they're actually that. In Gaap's case we actually see her moving stuff in the magical world, in the stakes' case we actually see them staking people. But about Bern and Lambda? I see nothing. As far as I could see they might just as well be talking tall and nothing else.

In the end Bernkastel is the witch of something that she doesn't even acknowledge existing.
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Old 2011-03-05, 22:32   Link #22194
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Uhm what am I missing? What is that line about George shaving 3 years of Battler's life foreshadowing?
Yasu had three years of her life "removed."

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I'm not even acknowledging that they're actually that. In Gaap's case we actually see her moving stuff in the magical world, in the stakes' case we actually see them staking people. But about Bern and Lambda? I see nothing. As far as I could see they might just as well be talking tall and nothing else.

In the end Bernkastel is the witch of something that she doesn't even acknowledge existing.
Bernkastel does believe that 'miracles' can be granted; atleast in the sense that she can do so in the context of fictional stories, she just doesn't think they're actually miracles. Her jaded and cynical viewpoint dissociates luck and low probability from miracles in the sense that they're defined as divine favors.

Gaap and the Stakes, and Bern and Lambda are different classes of beings even within the context of an Anti-Fantasy perspective though, and it bothers me that people don't take this to it's logical conclusion. While Gaap and the others are creations of Yasu's mind, Bern and Lambda are NOT, and are infact implied to be from another story. At best they're personifications of higher forces or characters that stepped out of a story and gained true independence, or they're just inserts from a higher level of published fiction and have different rules to play by.
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Old 2011-03-05, 22:48   Link #22195
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Yasu had three years of her life "removed."
Oh... that?!

I don't really think it's a foreshadowing, probably just a coincidence.



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Gaap and the Stakes, and Bern and Lambda are different classes of beings even within the context of an Anti-Fantasy perspective though, and it bothers me that people don't take this to it's logical conclusion. While Gaap and the others are creations of Yasu's mind, Bern and Lambda are NOT, and are infact implied to be from another story. At best they're personifications of higher forces or characters that stepped out of a story and gained true independence, or they're just inserts from a higher level of published fiction and have different rules to play by.
They are just recurring characters created by Ikuko, the fact that they are "voyagers" just means they can appear in different stories in slightly different forms. Ikuko must have decided to add them to the message bottle forgeries as a personal touch.

Of course Bernkastel was tailored around her cat.
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Old 2011-03-05, 23:24   Link #22196
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This is of course assuming that the Meta-World narrative is in the writings. Otherwise, the fuck do they come from? If they ARE in the writings, then they predate Ikuko because of Beato's message bottles, so...
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Old 2011-03-06, 01:02   Link #22197
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I was going to say that I was presenting my reality-fantasy theory in opposition to the author theory, but that's not quite right. I more think that the author aspects aren't a very important detail for interpreting what goes on in the series. I'm not saying there is no written versions of the Fragments, as the story says there are. I'm simply saying that the multiple worlds exist, as the story presents. I'm saying that a Sea of Fragments exists, as shown.

My speculation is that Featherine observed the fragments, and wrote them out as forgeries. And before people say that this is fantasy manifesting itself and that couldn't possibly happen, let me explain. With this reality-fantasy existing on the level of consciousness, the fact that Featherine is retelling them is not breaking any kind of physical laws or making magic real. She would simply be telling a story, which people could (and do) think she just made up as normal stories are. This is what Author theory presents. I argue that it doesn't change very much if instead of it simply being a product of Hachijo's mind, it's rather what her mind viewed on this higher plane. It's similar to the state of Sakutarou. You could look at it as simply a delusion in Maria's mind. Or, if you subscribe to the idea that this different plane of reality exists, Sakutarou is simply there but can only be accessed through Maria's mind. The difference in how you regard it is huge, but the end result is the same.

I'm not saying I can explain or even understand all the nuances of what Ryuukishi has created. There's a lot of really deep philosophical issues, and there's definitely more to the whole author idea then I'm fully putting together when you start looking at it through different perspectives of reality. But I strongly believe that the events are real and that the fact they are also recorded does not make them fictional.
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Old 2011-03-06, 01:35   Link #22198
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Alternatively, both ideas here are true and feed into each other. The series is meta enough to allow that sort of thing.
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Old 2011-03-06, 01:42   Link #22199
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Out of curiosity, what's the general opinion toward kakeras? Do they exist?

Personally, i still believe in them even after ep. VIII.
As far as individuals on R-Prime are concerned, they might as well not exist.

As Lambda says to Ange in ep4, it wouldn't matter if everybody came home to "an" Ange, because they didn't come home to her. Rika has a similar revelation in reverse in Higurashi.

Whether they exist as "alternate universes" or "fictions" is pretty much irrelevant. They can influence the "real world" only informationally. We can read about another world, but we can't do anything to that world and it can't do anything to us save by the knowledge of its existence communicated to us; that is, knowing how another reality might play out can influence our behavior, but the people there can't reach out and smack us upside the head. So whether they "really exist" or are "just fictional characters" makes no difference at all.

In the meta-world, they can be whatever they want to be, and ep6 seems to treat them as anything, nothing, and everything all at the same time.

EDIT: On the counterpoint, Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. Damn you, Borges!
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Old 2011-03-06, 01:44   Link #22200
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Alternatively, both ideas here are true and feed into each other. The series is meta enough to allow that sort of thing.
I basically agree with this idea, and is kind of what I was alluding to with my last couple sentences.

My problem is that saying the things are 'fictional' creates the wrong perspective towards the events, and I believe is missing the essence of what's being shown. But I whole heartedly agree the theories coexist, because being a reality at the level of consciousness is really the same level as imagination, as a feature of consciousness. This idea is even shown by the fact that events can be interpreted (read: recreated) however you want, and Mariage Sorciere showcases this feature of the meta world.

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As far as individuals on R-Prime are concerned, they might as well not exist.

As Lambda says to Ange in ep4, it wouldn't matter if everybody came home to "an" Ange, because they didn't come home to her. Rika has a similar revelation in reverse in Higurashi.

Whether they exist as "alternate universes" or "fictions" is pretty much irrelevant. They can influence the "real world" only informationally. We can read about another world, but we can't do anything to that world and it can't do anything to us save by the knowledge of its existence communicated to us; that is, knowing how another reality might play out can influence our behavior, but the people there can't reach out and smack us upside the head. So whether they "really exist" or are "just fictional characters" makes no difference at all.

In the meta-world, they can be whatever they want to be, and ep6 seems to treat them as anything, nothing, and everything all at the same time.

EDIT: On the counterpoint, Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. Damn you, Borges!
My only problem with your interpretation is that it seems one of the points Ryuukishi is trying to make with the series is the philosophical significance of multiple truths. How later re-interpretations truly do 'change' previous events. This seems to disregard that whole message and subscribe simply to an idea that it doesn't matter and there really was only 'one truth'. This also ties in with the idea of how you perceive an event can be different from someone else, but both perceived events are equally as real to each individual.

You also say it only affects things informationally, but I think that is also disregarding the 'love' side of the story, how these things create happiness and meaning for people like Ange and Maria.

In short, I think your perspective isn't wrong, but rather is limiting the message that Ryuukishi is giving out, emotionally and philosophically.
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