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Old 2011-03-05, 18:46   Link #701
taofd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Yes, but what you are saying is different from what Kyubey is saying. He says energy is LOST, not "lost" in a fake sense of the word. As in it disappears forever from the universe. Just like how emotions create energy, which is theoretically also impossible.
1) You are claiming to know MORE about physics than QB's hyper-advanced space-faring civilization.
2) Are you really applying real physics to this show? Seriously?
3) There are many meanings to the word "lost". He was explaining the concept to Madoka in laymen's terms. You usually wouldn't use the campfire analogy to explain entropy concerning the universe. And actually, yes, the universe is "losing" energy found in a usable state, that's where "heat death occurs". It is conceivable, given enough high-tech cultures that are using energy to the point in which there is an imbalance in the equilibrium required to maintain a certain state of energy for life to exist.

Quote:
I do not change any facts.

Facts from Kyubey
-The universe is losing energy
-Emotions make energy

Facts from Physics
-The universe is not losing energy

Now which part of the facts did I twist around? Anything I say other than those facts are my opinion. You do not think the evidence fits because you are biased as well; everyone is.
I have no vested interest in whichever way the show goes. I enjoy it regardless, and I'm just looking at the facts given to me. Madoka could turn into a Cuthulu tomorrow for all I care, and as long as Urobuchi does it well, I'm all for it.


Quote:

That is because the animator/director/whoever you are citing is looking at Kyubey from his point of view. From Madoka and Homura's perspective, Kyubey is evil. And from mine as well.

I do not mind if you value the opinions of the director more than my own, but you cannot use him as a way to end the argument. Kyubey's values are different from Madoka's, so that is why Madoka can call Kyubey evil and Kyubey will align himself on good.
What that makes no sense? If the CREATORS of the show explicitly state that QB is not evil in the normal sense of the word, and that his intent is to SAVE THE UNIVERSE, why do you still insist that he is "evil" or "lying" when you can't even justify your stance? You refuse to even define what your definition of evil is. We can't have a discussion of all you do is troll and refuse to substantiate your points.
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Old 2011-03-05, 19:22   Link #702
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
1) You are claiming to know MORE about physics than QB's hyper-advanced space-faring civilization.
2) Are you really applying real physics to this show? Seriously?
3) There are many meanings to the word "lost". He was explaining the concept to Madoka in laymen's terms. You usually wouldn't use the campfire analogy to explain entropy concerning the universe. And actually, yes, the universe is "losing" energy found in a usable state, that's where "heat death occurs". It is conceivable, given enough high-tech cultures that are using energy to the point in which there is an imbalance in the equilibrium required to maintain a certain state of energy for life to exist.
1) I never said that. I just note what what modern-day scientists know and what Kyubey says is contradictory.
2) You may as well not apply anything to this show. Physics is how Urobuchi is able to let Kyubey talk about entropy, so I can also use it to evaluate Kyubey's claim.
3) Kyubey also said that energy was created out of emotion. It is not unreasonable to assume that when Kyubey said that energy is being lost, that it is destroyed as well.

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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
What that makes no sense? If the CREATORS of the show explicitly state that QB is not evil in the normal sense of the word, and that his intent is to SAVE THE UNIVERSE, why do you still insist that he is "evil" or "lying" when you can't even justify your stance? You refuse to even define what your definition of evil is. We can't have a discussion of all you do is troll and refuse to substantiate your points.
The creators of the show have intentionally deceived viewers before. Kyubey has intentionally withheld the full story from Sayaka for his own benefit.

I will not define evil because whatever definition I pose will be argued as not evil by you, therefore leading to a never-ending back and forth. It has happened before. I will not limit myself to a definition.

Madoka thinks Kyubey is evil. She does not explain herself, she just feels Kyubey is evil.

But I will, because you continue to call me a troll. Kyubey says he is making young girls suffer for the sake of the universe. Physics states that energy is never lost, so Kyubey is already lying if I take his words for face value. If Kyubey meant that heat death is happening, then physics says that is not going to happen for billions of years. Unless there is some agent sucking out all the useful energy from the universe at an alarming rate, there is no reason for Madoka to be concerned.

Now Kyubey is suggesting that energy can be created out of emotion. But Kyubey would only need that if energy was being destroyed as well. In our universe, energy is neither created nor destroyed. There must be something strange about the Madokaverse - something that can destroy energy. Kyubey is the one begging for Madoka to create energy. I claim that Kyubey is the one destroying energy for his own purpose, and seeking created energy to fuel that purpose. Kyubey is responsible for both threatening the universe's survival and torturing Madoka, making him evil. There are enough hints to suggest that Kyubey is lying.

We do not have to have a discussion. Just pretend I do not exist, or put me on one of the ignore list (if this forum has one). It is simply my obligation to respond to anyone who responds to me.
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Old 2011-03-05, 20:49   Link #703
taofd
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
1) I never said that. I just note what what modern-day scientists know and what Kyubey says is contradictory.
2) You may as well not apply anything to this show. Physics is how Urobuchi is able to let Kyubey talk about entropy, so I can also use it to evaluate Kyubey's claim.
3) Kyubey also said that energy was created out of emotion. It is not unreasonable to assume that when Kyubey said that energy is being lost, that it is destroyed as well.
How did you get from "energy is lost" to "energy is destroyed"? QB has in NO way stated that energy is destroyed. If anything, by invoking the theory of entropy, he has implicitly stated that energy is not destroyed, but conserved.

The notion of heat death is when the universe reaches a maximum level of entropy and no more "work" can be done. QB has stated his reason here is to deal with the problem relating to entropy. You are selectively choosing what you want to hear-- You believe QB when he says that there is a problem associated with entropy, yet you don't believe the urgency of the issue. Our science is based on a lot of faulty assumptions. The current calculated estimate for when heat death will occur is based on a number of known and unknown variables such as dark matter or black holes.

Quote:

The creators of the show have intentionally deceived viewers before. Kyubey has intentionally withheld the full story from Sayaka for his own benefit.
Urobuchi has attempted to redirect assumptions claiming this show was 'chidamari' sketch. He did not "actively" try to decieve viewers. Also, this post was not by Urobuchi.

Quote:

I will not define evil because whatever definition I pose will be argued as not evil by you, therefore leading to a never-ending back and forth. It has happened before. I will not limit myself to a definition.

Madoka thinks Kyubey is evil. She does not explain herself, she just feels Kyubey is evil.

But I will, because you continue to call me a troll. Kyubey says he is making young girls suffer for the sake of the universe. Physics states that energy is never lost, so Kyubey is already lying if I take his words for face value. If Kyubey meant that heat death is happening, then physics says that is not going to happen for billions of years. Unless there is some agent sucking out all the useful energy from the universe at an alarming rate, there is no reason for Madoka to be concerned.

Now Kyubey is suggesting that energy can be created out of emotion. But Kyubey would only need that if energy was being destroyed as well. In our universe, energy is neither created nor destroyed. There must be something strange about the Madokaverse - something that can destroy energy. Kyubey is the one begging for Madoka to create energy. I claim that Kyubey is the one destroying energy for his own purpose, and seeking created energy to fuel that purpose. Kyubey is responsible for both threatening the universe's survival and torturing Madoka, making him evil. There are enough hints to suggest that Kyubey is lying.

We do not have to have a discussion. Just pretend I do not exist, or put me on one of the ignore list (if this forum has one). It is simply my obligation to respond to anyone who responds to me.
Tell me, is Winston Churchill evil in the Churchill Dilemma?
Also you have a number of logical inconsistencies in your argument.

You state:

Quote:
Madoka believes QB evil, therefore QB must be evil.
QB has stated energy can be created from emotion, therefore energy must be being destroyed.
QB is threatening the Universe's survival and tortuing Madoka, therefore he must be evil.
How many times do I have to repeat: QB has not stated ANYWHERE that energy is being destroyed? Also, WTH? How exactly is QB threatening the Universe's survival? His actions may be causing Madoka grief, but it is not as simple as to simply pin "evil" on him just because he is doing so.

According to your logic, anyone who causes another individual grief is evil, even if it is for a greater good, unintentional, etc.
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Old 2011-03-05, 21:05   Link #704
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post


What that makes no sense? If the CREATORS of the show explicitly state that QB is not evil in the normal sense of the word, and that his intent is to SAVE THE UNIVERSE, why do you still insist that he is "evil" or "lying" when you can't even justify your stance? You refuse to even define what your definition of evil is. We can't have a discussion of all you do is troll and refuse to substantiate your points.
Or you could just....you know...wait for the next few eps when more about him is obviously going to be revealed....At this point much too little about what he really wants to do is known, as Homura keeps hinting so.

Anyway Kyuubei being evil in his personality or not is moot. His actions have the consequence of leading innocent people down to ruin even if what he says he's doing is true. And if the pattern in this show continues then everyone reaps what they sows in the end.

I suppose you could compare him to a scientist who butchers thousands in human experimentation to develop a cure for cancer in the end.
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Old 2011-03-05, 21:28   Link #705
taofd
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Or you could just....you know...wait for the next few eps when more about him is obviously going to be revealed....At this point much too little about what he really wants to do is known, as Homura keeps hinting so.

Anyway Kyuubei being evil in his personality or not is moot. His actions have the consequence of leading innocent people down to ruin even if what he says he's doing is true. And if the pattern in this show continues then everyone reaps what they sows in the end.

I suppose you could compare him to a scientist who butchers thousands in human experimentation to develop a cure for cancer in the end.
Lol, it was just a response to speculation about QB. Specifically, there is no evidence insofar as to accuse QB of having ulterior motives other than what he has already stated.
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Old 2011-03-05, 21:53   Link #706
Deconstructor
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Lol, it was just a response to speculation about QB. Specifically, there is no evidence insofar as to accuse QB of having ulterior motives other than what he has already stated.
Of course there is no hard evidence. Kyubey only tells Madoka as much as she needs to know, and keeps the full story to himself.

Kyubey did not tell Sayaka about the specifics of the Soul Gem.
Kyubey did not tell any of his Puella Magi that they were going to turn into witches. One of them did.

There never is any direct evidence to accuse Kyubey of ulterior motives, but Kyubey has had them. He wants his Puella Magi to turn into witches. Homura says he has a true plan; Kyubey says his true plan is to save the universe. If that is so, why is Homura trying to stop him? Because she is emotionally attached to Madoka?

I assume that Kyubey is not lying. He may be trying to save the universe. But, my guess is Kyubey is simultaneously also the threat to the universe. Kyubey is evil. In your terms, he is using up all of the universe's useful energy for his own purposes, and needs more. So he goes to Earth and farms magical girls for useful energy. In my terms, Kyubey is destroying that energy in the process of using it. The differences are not that important so much in suggesting that Kyubey is responsible.

There is no direct evidence to suggest that my theory is true. But, you see, I don't care. It merely fits with the pattern of Kyubey giving an incomplete briefing of the situation, and later revealing that he has other secrets. It also fits with the idea that Kyubey is evil.

Last edited by Deconstructor; 2011-03-05 at 22:17.
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Old 2011-03-06, 02:24   Link #707
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
What that makes no sense? If the CREATORS of the show explicitly state that QB is not evil in the normal sense of the word
The creators who were never that reliable in the first place.
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Old 2011-03-06, 02:27   Link #708
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Only Urobuchi
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Old 2011-03-06, 02:29   Link #709
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I don't recall any of the other staff being all "We're actually making a serious deconstruction of a Magical Girl series framed as a gothic fairy tale, but don't tell Urobuchi we gave it away" when the show first started.
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Old 2011-03-06, 02:39   Link #710
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How exactly does Word of God automatically mean that everyone else is wrong?
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Old 2011-03-06, 04:10   Link #711
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1st law energy cannot be created or destroy, it could only change form

2nd law S = Q/T [J/K], there is no 100% efficiency in any system

So QB is not lying, he is just teaching Modoka some fundamentals of thermal dynamics

some intro in thermal dynamic if anyone is interested

I want my mahou shoujo to be created by CLAMP's mascot instead, something like Kero-chan and Mokona

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Old 2011-03-06, 04:46   Link #712
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post

What that makes no sense? If the CREATORS of the show explicitly state that QB is not evil in the normal sense of the word, and that his intent is to SAVE THE UNIVERSE, why do you still insist that he is "evil" or "lying" when you can't even justify your stance? You refuse to even define what your definition of evil is. We can't have a discussion of all you do is troll and refuse to substantiate your points.
Evil is not something that is absolute across all individuals. It's based on your moral compass that is generally shaped by the society/environment you were raised/live in. Which is why the person you are quoting is fully correct in saying from his perspective, QB is evil, but from QB's perspective he's not.

99% of the QB isn't evil arguments fails to understand this very simple concept. People saying QB is evil are saying so from their perspective.

If it helps, I'll use an exaggerated example to make this crystal clear. Let's take a child rapist. The child rapist has a few screws loose and doesn't think anything he's doing to children is wrong. In fact, his screws are REALLY loose, and he thinks his abuse is actually helping children. From his perspective, he's a shining hero.

Now, from my perspective, he's evil. Do you understand what perspective has to do with labeling something evil or not?
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Old 2011-03-06, 05:23   Link #713
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Damn, do we really have to argue on Kyuube's explanation on entropy?
He was simplifying the explanation to a kid.

Guess how highschool teachers teach the atomic structure? Using the Bohr model, because its simplification is "generally" correct.

You're driving in a car at 10kph and a car is heading your way at 10kph. From your perspective, the other car's coming at you at 20kph. Oh despite it not really being 20kph, Kyuube's gonna omit time dilation to simplify things. That lying bastard!

I have yet to see Kyuube say anything that is an outright lie, unless you really want to count simplification as a lie.
Furthermore, where does Kyuube state energy is created out of emotion?
The energy that Kyuube collects is difference between hope and grief.
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Old 2011-03-06, 05:44   Link #714
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The alien worrying about entropy theory is pretty much dead, QB was lying. If you wanna know why, watch the latest episode of Star Driver.
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Old 2011-03-06, 05:45   Link #715
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I have yet to see Kyuube say anything that is an outright lie, unless you really want to count simplification as a lie.
When he told Kyoko he absolutely didn't know of what the outcome will be when she wanted to go save Sayaka, then later blatantly say at the end he knew all along it was useless and that it was planned to force Madoka to take up a contract by making Homura fight Walpurgis Nacht alone
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Old 2011-03-06, 06:23   Link #716
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When he told Kyoko he absolutely didn't know of what the outcome will be when she wanted to go save Sayaka, then later blatantly say at the end he knew all along it was useless and that it was planned to force Madoka to take up a contract by making Homura fight Walpurgis Nacht alone
Hmmm, I do agree that the events now favor Kyuube, but how much can we really say he planned it all along? It's true it seems like he knows the future (eg. being there exactly when Sayaka wanted to make a wish), but it could just be that he's finding the events somewhat predictable?

In some ways I still don't think Kyuube was lying when he said he didn't know the outcome. He did say Puella Magi's are against reason, so anything's possible (though not necessarily probable).

The way he told Homura that converting back was "foolish" and "obviously impossible" (assuming the subs are accurate), to me, seemed more like he's just saying "oh, it hasn't happened before, so I've yet to be proven wrong about this", but yes I can see this as a lie if he really meant it to be impossible.

There's definitely a question on whether Kyuube is foreseeing events or influencing things to reach certain events...
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Old 2011-03-06, 06:37   Link #717
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Hmmm, I do agree that the events now favor Kyuube, but how much can we really say he planned it all along? It's true it seems like he knows the future (eg. being there exactly when Sayaka wanted to make a wish), but it could just be that he's finding the events somewhat predictable?

In some ways I still don't think Kyuube was lying when he said he didn't know the outcome. He did say Puella Magi's are against reason, so anything's possible (though not necessarily probable).

The way he told Homura that converting back was "foolish" and "obviously impossible" (assuming the subs are accurate), to me, seemed more like he's just saying "oh, it hasn't happened before, so I've yet to be proven wrong about this", but yes I can see this as a lie if he really meant it to be impossible.

There's definitely a question on whether Kyuube is foreseeing events or influencing things to reach certain events...
Any further doubt would be removed by him gloating about Homura's state. Also, saying obviously impossible is 180 backtracking.
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Old 2011-03-06, 06:44   Link #718
taofd
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Originally Posted by creb View Post
Evil is not something that is absolute across all individuals. It's based on your moral compass that is generally shaped by the society/environment you were raised/live in. Which is why the person you are quoting is fully correct in saying from his perspective, QB is evil, but from QB's perspective he's not.

99% of the QB isn't evil arguments fails to understand this very simple concept. People saying QB is evil are saying so from their perspective.

If it helps, I'll use an exaggerated example to make this crystal clear. Let's take a child rapist. The child rapist has a few screws loose and doesn't think anything he's doing to children is wrong. In fact, his screws are REALLY loose, and he thinks his abuse is actually helping children. From his perspective, he's a shining hero.

Now, from my perspective, he's evil. Do you understand what perspective has to do with labeling something evil or not?
You are correct-- we have discussed this already and you missed the earlier part of the discussion. The issue still stands that you have reasons why you believe someone is evil. I agree that mental sickness, etc is not an excuse for an individual not being evil, but it is a mitigating factor. In the case you used as an example, if a child predator is actually that delusional, I would argue that he isn't evil because he is simply insane and his mental facilities are so compromised that he cannot even conceive his actions as wrong. It would be like telling someone that you are a bad person for liking to eat persimmons, or cheese, or whatever.

As I said before, for someone to be evil in my book, there has to be mens rea, or intent. I think you will agree with me.

The issue I have with deconstructor, is that there is NO evidence (and rather, evidence for quite the contrary) of QB having evil intent. However, he just wants to insist that QB is evil because of the acts he is doing. Claiming that QB has evil intent because his actions are evil is a logical fallacy and circular in argument. What I have issue with is not if someone's definition of evil doesn't correspond to my own, but rather the logic one uses to arrive to that conclusion is fundamentally flawed.

I asked him to consult the Churchill Dilemma. It is actually quite a similar situation.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Any further doubt would be removed by him gloating about Homura's state. Also, saying obviously impossible is 180 backtracking.
I didn't view it as gloating, but rather arrogance and condescension.
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Old 2011-03-06, 12:50   Link #719
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kyubee is from kyubiii right? so it is a fox?
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Old 2011-03-06, 14:12   Link #720
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kyubee is from kyubiii right? so it is a fox?
It's not Kyubee, it's Kyubei from Inkyubeitor = Incubator.
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