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View Poll Results: To Aru Majutsu no Index II - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 46 49.46%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 23 24.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 16 17.20%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 5.38%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.08%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 1.08%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-07, 00:20   Link #101
Cantelope
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Just did some number crunching in the episode 19 thread, and I'm glad that they decided to leave out the explanation of how Accelerator used the rotational kinetic energy of Earth to launch the building as a bullet. Decided to quote here for relevance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
All wroooooong.

Just did some reading and apparently he redirected energy from Earth's linear angular momentum into launching the building. The kinetic energy of a massive rotating body is Iw^2, which in the case of Earth is roughly 2.57x10^29 (257 quintillion billion) joules. The change in energy, or work, in this case is enough to slow the rotation of earth by 5 minutes, which means the angular velocity w is now 7.29754x10^-5 (calculated from 2*pi/(24*60*60 + 5*60 seconds). The new rotational energy of Earth is roughly 2.55x10^29 joules, meaning Accelerator has about 1.78x10^27 joules to work with (enough energy to launch a Saturn V rocket completely out of Earth's gravity well 237 trillion times).

Needless to say, if he redirected all of that energy into a building, the result would be catastrophic for the entire city, I hope is self-evident. Think about it, we're talking 1.78x10^24 kilojoules of energy here. This is the equivalent energy of 21,141,001,293 (21.1 billion) nuclear explosions.

So if you're asking me what would happen realistically, I can't really say for certain. Most likely the building would be destroyed so utterly that we'd see nuclear fission as the chemical bonds between every compound in the building get torn apart in the high energy environment, and subsequently the atoms also breaking apart. The explosive force would be so destructive everything within a radius of about 3000 miles would be completely obliterated.

Scary to think about.
To put this into perspective by the way, the width of the United States at it's widest point is roughly 3400 miles. If Accelerator pulled this stunt in the middle of the United States, almost all of North and Central America would no longer exist on the map.

Last edited by Cantelope; 2011-03-07 at 00:44.
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Old 2011-03-07, 00:29   Link #102
Asuras
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Lately these episodes have been seeming really hectic. Like they're trying to cram everything in the boot before episode 24.
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Old 2011-03-07, 00:43   Link #103
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Lately these episodes have been seeming really hectic. Like they're trying to cram everything in the boot before episode 24.
They are. This arc ends next ep.
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Old 2011-03-07, 01:00   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
Just did some number crunching in the episode 19 thread, and I'm glad that they decided to leave out the explanation of how Accelerator used the rotational kinetic energy of Earth to launch the building as a bullet. Decided to quote here for relevance:



To put this into perspective by the way, the width of the United States at it's widest point is roughly 3400 miles. If Accelerator pulled this stunt in the middle of the United States, almost all of North and Central America would no longer exist on the map.
What's worse is that he did all that with half of his computing power and with relative ease.

Just you wait until he becomes even more hax later on. You'll have a field day with what is know as Black Wings
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Old 2011-03-07, 01:23   Link #105
Flere821
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
I just realized that this means Touma arrived at AC 10 years ago. Or was that already stated somewhere?
It was never explicitly stated, but from the Angel Fall arc of the novels the timing does fit...

(not a spoiler, seeing as the relevant novel was already turned into a anime - it just didn't make it into the anime)
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Old 2011-03-07, 01:37   Link #106
Ice Block
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
-snipped-
What Accelerator did in the novel was throw a slab of concrete he gouged out from a wall. The direct text from the novel:
Quote:
Accelerator thrust his hand into the nearest concrete wall. Due to vector control, it totally looks like his arm is buried in tofu. As Accelerator screams to the point of blood coming out from his throat, he disorderly swung his arm about that's buried in the wall.

He brings together and controls all the vectors.

A *BOOM* thunderous roar echoed throughout.

In that instant, the Earth's rotation on September 30 slows down by about 5 minutes.

His arm, having took away the enormous energy of the planet's rotation, converts it via vector control into a single demonic attack.

The forcibly gouged-out concrete wall was blown away at a horrifying velocity. Accelerator is standing on an alley corner that surrounds a building, but the several buildings that serve as an obstructing space between him and the [target] were being destroyed as if they're waste paper.
If you'd like to, you can compare your calculations with this one from some Japanese magazine:


(2 parts. Click to enlarge)

Yes, it would be catastrophic if it hit any other structure or feature capable of stopping it, but the fact is that it was targeted at Aleister Crowley's Windowless Building. The fact that it absorbed all that energy and didn't even get a single scratch should give you a hint on what that building really is. This is what the main point of that scene is -- not Accelerator's strength or power, but the nature of the Windowless Building and the one that resides in it.
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Last edited by Ice Block; 2011-03-07 at 01:42. Reason: clarified
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Old 2011-03-07, 02:28   Link #107
Cantelope
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
.....
Unfortunately I can't read Japanese, is there a translation available? In any case, I highly doubt the figures are accurate. From the second image it appears that he's talking about how much linear velocity was taken from the earth's rotation, which I don't know what he plans to do with because the total kinetic rotational energy of Earth is a factor of angular velocity, not rotational translational. *NOTE 1*

Now, I'm not sure if you're entirely aware of methods of transferring energy, but 1.78x10^24 kJ completely translated into kinetic energy for a slab of concrete (that has a mass of, let's say 1 metric ton or 1000 kg) would be able to make that slab of concrete reach a speed of 1.88x10^12 meters per second. That's right, there's so much energy present, the slab would travel faster than the speed of light. *NOTE 2*

If you remember back to physics 1, you can recall that you can describe energy as the amount of force exerted across a distance. What the the author is claiming here, is that Accelerator exerted enough force on the slab at the initial point, to make its average force across the entire distance to the building equivalent to 5 minutes of Earth's rotational kinetic energy.

Moving on to a mistaken assumption now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Yes, it would be catastrophic if it hit any other structure or feature capable of stopping it, but the fact is that it was targeted at Aleister Crowley's Windowless Building. The fact that it absorbed all that energy and didn't even get a single scratch should give you a hint on what that building really is. This is what the main point of that scene is -- not Accelerator's strength or power, but the nature of the Windowless Building and the one that resides in it.
Surely you're aware that even if the slab isn't instantly demolished down to the subatomic level by this initial force, that the 1000kg projectile at such high speeds would cause immediate damage to all surroundings without having to physically touch them. The amount of friction between the air and the slab would be so high the surrounding air molecules would instantly begin to undergo nuclear fission, and the amount of energy bled into the surroundings would instantly heat up the local atmosphere to beyond thermonuclear temperatures. In fact, the amount of energy present in the environment would be high enough to begin small-scale nuclear FUSION between even heavy nuclei atoms, and the amount of environmental destruction resulting from this would be on a scale beyond my imagination. Imagine a gigantic shock wave that propels outwards strong enough to knock skyscrapers over like flimsy paper dominoes, followed by waves of heat so intense that it instantly carbonizes everything it passes. That's the basic gist of a nuclear explosion, now imagine that about 20 billion times more destructive, if that's even possible.

I might be getting carried away though and missing some key-factor in my rough calculations, and I'm sure someone here is willing to point out an error if I've made one. Otherwise I'm inclined to believe that I'm correct and that if Accelerator was a real person, no continent would be safe from his wrath. But as you mentioned, the point is how durable the windowless building is, and we can conclude that it is strong enough to withstand a blast of 20 billion combined nuclear warheads.

*NOTE 1* I see the numbers 1700 km, and 1654 km which are the respective rotational translational speeds of a point of the surface of the Earth. The reason why you can't calculate the total kinetic rotational energy of the Earth with these numbers is because you must factor how much energy it takes to rotate every single particle of mass on the planet, not just the outermost layer.

*NOTE 2* Since it's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, we have to use relativistic calculations for the velocity of this object, Ek = mc^2(1/(sqrt(1-(v/c)^2)) - 1) or v = c*sqrt(-mc^2/Ek + 1/Ek^2 + 1). The speed of the slab would reach 299,792,450.4 meters per second, which is only 7.6 meters per second slower than the speed of light.

Last edited by Cantelope; 2011-03-07 at 02:45. Reason: trying to make easier to understand
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Old 2011-03-07, 06:35   Link #108
~Yami~
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finally we enter the climax....
Accelerator rocks!!
It's quite funny when Accel and Touma talks each other by phone....
and finally Misaka and Index entered too
this is a kind of development that I'm waiting for..... ^^
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Old 2011-03-07, 07:31   Link #109
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well considering misaka is one of the main characters, she doesnt have much action scenes.
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Old 2011-03-07, 09:09   Link #110
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Originally Posted by KyriaL View Post
well considering misaka is one of the main characters, she doesnt have much action scenes.
it's Vengeance..

Misaka have an entire series^^
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Old 2011-03-07, 10:04   Link #111
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
As for the building bullet in episode 21, I'm assuming that the general basis of the act was that as he pushes up on the building, the building exerts a normal force in an equal but opposite direction back down on his arm. Accelerator redirects that normal force back upwards in the same direction as his arm, and in turn the building now exerts a new normal force downwards the same magnitude as the combined new upwards force from the previously directed vector. In this fashion, the amount of upwards force doubles until it's large enough to rip the building of its foundation and then all of the force is redirected in the desired direction of launch.

Clever application of his powers, which I like, and it's somewhat believable if you accept what I call the "magic" of fiction (unfortunately Kihara is far far beyond acceptable levels for me). What would probably happen in reality is that, because the force being exerted upwards is only being redirected from his arm, is that the amount of pressure on that small area would simply cause his arm to begin slicing through the building like butter, instead of lifting the entire building from the ground.

Imagine trying to pick up a cake with just a single finger, without the assistance of a plate underneath it. Your finger would simply tear the cake apart, because it isn't able to push back on your finger as hard as your finger is pushing upwards. In the same fashion, the amount of force the support beams in a building can exert downwards is also limited, and I'm confident that a single steel beam cannot exert a downward force equal to the entire weight of the entire building.

We can easily escape this thought process by accepting the "magic" of fiction. I choose to pretend that all of the support beams in Academy City are made of carbon nano-tubes. A very expensive city, but eh, it helps me sleep at night.
Just guessing, are you taking in account every single vector in your analysis? Because I'm sure you know Accelerator controls every single vector on his doings.
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:34   Link #112
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The article mentioned it moving at speed of light at 99.9999999999998%.

Considering what Aleister intends to achieve,
that kind of achievement is not enough to faze him.
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Old 2011-03-07, 13:12   Link #113
Cantelope
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Just guessing, are you taking in account every single vector in your analysis? Because I'm sure you know Accelerator controls every single vector on his doings.
You're quoting my previous mistaken assumption of how he threw the building (one that is much more believable by the way). Since Accelerator can only manipulate vectors essentially touching him, we can narrow down the list of vectors to a few specific things, I'll throw them up here:
  • Gravity
  • Normal Forces
  • Air Pressures and Frictions
  • Linear Angular Momentum due to Earth
  • Centripetal Acceleration due to Earth
  • Centripetal&L.A.M due to Sun
  • Centripetal&L.A.M due to every mass in the Galaxy/Universe

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiyuu99 View Post
The article mentioned it moving at speed of light at 99.9999999999998%.

Considering what Aleister intends to achieve,
that kind of achievement is not enough to faze him.
It should phase him, because now we're getting into relativity. When a mass begins to move at those speeds (without breaking into many many elementary particles) the amount of drag on spacetime becomes akin to that of a blackhole. I think it's somewhat preposterous for even science fiction to claim to be impervious to the strongest destructive force known in the universe.

I realize this is a work of fiction though, and that they're allowed to break from reality in extremes, but the nature of Index makes it half-believable to people unfamiliar with what physics is actually like in reality. I feel like it's a good idea to make sure at least a few people are aware that the implications of the show are either utterly exaggerated (everything Accelerator does) or straight up impossible (Kihara, I'm looking at you).
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:03   Link #114
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It should phase him, because now we're getting into relativity. When a mass begins to move at those speeds (without breaking into many many elementary particles) the amount of drag on spacetime becomes akin to that of a blackhole. I think it's somewhat preposterous for even science fiction to claim to be impervious to the strongest destructive force known in the universe.
yeah, but you see, Aleister Crowley is the greatest magician of the modern era...the laws of physics mean next to nothing to him...

Quote:
I realize this is a work of fiction though, and that they're allowed to break from reality in extremes, but the nature of Index makes it half-believable to people unfamiliar with what physics is actually like in reality. I feel like it's a good idea to make sure at least a few people are aware that the implications of the show are either utterly exaggerated (everything Accelerator does) or straight up impossible (Kihara, I'm looking at you).
well, Kamachi is no scientist, he's made plenty of such mistakes(heck, just look at Uiharu's power)...so it's generally better to just accept that physics in toaruverse are different from real life physics, or pretend...not to...notice....the.....mistakes........>.<

argh, can't believe i just typed that after all the times i bitched about the railgun or accelerator's wall-bullet scene >___<
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:16   Link #115
Cantelope
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yeah, but you see, Aleister Crowley is the greatest magician of the modern era...the laws of physics mean next to nothing to him...
I'm aware of this, but I'm a firm supporter of appropriate power scaling in a series (otherwise we end up with crap like Bleach where there's only two people, Ichigo and the main villain, and then everyone else is a million power levels behind).

Saying that Aleister Crowley is some sort of existence that is immune to the immense forces that a black hole exerts on things is exactly synonymous to saying that he's a being that is more majestic and powerful than the things that hold entire galaxies together. Am I the only one who thinks it's ridiculous for an author to expect me to accept that a single person is so significant, our 100,000 light year wide galaxy revolves around a single upside-down man that's 1/20,000,000,000,000,000th the size of a single light year? It's about believable scaling, scaling damnit! Is that too much to ask for?!

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Originally Posted by giorno View Post
well, Kamachi is no scientist, he's made plenty of such mistakes(heck, just look at Uiharu's power)...so it's generally better to just accept that physics in toaruverse are different from real life physics, or pretend...not to...notice....the.....mistakes........>.<
Well, of course I don't think anyone who watches the series strictly believes that everything presented in the show on the science side is 100% accurate and plausible. Just like Star Trek fans, we merely accept their fictional proposals and enjoy the series for its surface value, but when you're really into what the authors so casually discard or throw about wildly it's pretty offputting.

Last edited by Cantelope; 2011-03-07 at 16:28. Reason: addressing edited post
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:22   Link #116
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I'm aware of this, but I'm a firm supporter of appropriate power scaling in a series (otherwise we end up with crap like Bleach where there's only two people, Ichigo and the main villain, and then everyone else is a million power levels behind).

Saying that Aleister Crowley is some sort of existence that is immune to the immense forces that a black hole exerts on things is exactly synonymous to saying that he's a being that is more majestic and powerful than the things that hold entire galaxies together. Am I the only one who thinks it's ridiculous for an author to expect me to accept that a single person is so significant, our 100,000 light year wide galaxy revolves around a single upside-down man that's 1/20,000,000,000,000,000th the size of a single light year?
idk....

Spoiler for two sides to this:
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:28   Link #117
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Guys, if you're insisting on forcing a science fiction concept into actual scientific workings, at least don't bring up inconsistent things like 'magic' and 'magicians'.
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:38   Link #118
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
I'm aware of this, but I'm a firm supporter of appropriate power scaling in a series (otherwise we end up with crap like Bleach where there's only two people, Ichigo and the main villain, and then everyone else is a million power levels behind).

Saying that Aleister Crowley is some sort of existence that is immune to the immense forces that a black hole exerts on things is exactly synonymous to saying that he's a being that is more majestic and powerful than the things that hold entire galaxies together. Am I the only one who thinks it's ridiculous for an author to expect me to accept that a single person is so significant, our 100,000 light year wide galaxy revolves around a single upside-down man that's 1/20,000,000,000,000,000th the size of a single light year? It's about believable scaling, scaling damnit! Is that too much to ask for?!.
I do, at this point.
A Christian Arch Angel with less than 50% of her power can completly bent the laws of gravity with Astral in Hand, throwing every astralogical bodies in unvierse in whatever directions she like.

Now, Aleister Crowley, who is an aeon above the Arch Angel.... I see no trouble him completly bending the law of universe... wait, isn't he doing that right now????
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:39   Link #119
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Guys, if you're insisting on forcing a science fiction concept into actual scientific workings, at least don't bring up inconsistent things like 'magic' and 'magicians'.
Well then we have to say the whole series is smut because the existence of an AIM field itself is magical in essence. It's a 'magical' shroud that let's ESPers break the laws of physics to certain degrees, which to me is the exact same as magic. If this weren't the case then nothing about the show would be believable.

I've just been saying that if some person like Accelerator actually existed, with his magical ability to manipulate vectors, and he pulled this episode 21 stunt, he would completely destroy an entire continent, not just knock a couple of buildings over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I do, at this point.
A Christian Arch Angel with less than 50% of her power can completly bent the laws of gravity with Astral in Hand, throwing every astralogical bodies in unvierse in whatever directions she like.

Now, Aleister Crowley, who is an aeon above the Arch Angel.... I see no trouble him completly bending the law of universe... wait, isn't he doing that right now????
If this actually happens in the canon, then alright, I guess Christians are truly things to be feared, and if Aleister Crowley is the kingpin of these things then he's a monster completely out of this world *NOTE*. I feel obliged to inform you however, that you're thinking of the "law" of gravity and the "law" of the universe (if there really is such a thing) in the wrong way. I'd ask you for specific examples that I can read and consider seriously, but if the series really is headed in that direction I'm probably going to end up dropping unfortunately. =( Thanks for giving me very grim prospects of the future.

*NOTE* Read: even the most remote resemblence to reality/believability
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Last edited by Cantelope; 2011-03-07 at 16:47. Reason: addressing shmaster
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:48   Link #120
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Cantelope View Post
Well then we have to say the whole series is smut because the existence of an AIM field itself is magical in essence. It's a 'magical' shroud that let's ESPers break the laws of physics to certain degrees, which to me is the exact same as magic. If this weren't the case then nothing about the show would be believable.
Doesn't really matter though right? The most important thing about science fiction is creating interesting concepts that inspire imaginations, even Scientists watch Star Trek.

Realistic or not, Creating plasma from compressing wind and using the Earth's rotation to throw buildings are vastly more creative than a typical death ray.
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