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Old 2011-03-07, 12:25   Link #22241
Keriaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Then you clearly indicate that you understand absolutely nothing about that theory, what it believes, or the conclusions being drawn from the themes presented.

You will not find a single Author Theory advocate who believes the fictional nature of much of the characterization renders the narrative meaningless. In fact, many will tell you that Erika, essentially a wholly fictional character, nevertheless has meaningful impact on her development and the development of those she interacts with.

However, the fictionalization of the characters allows them to be trended to extremes. I think Rosa is a particular victim of this. In ep5 especially, she is portrayed as acting in the interests of Maria in a manner which Maria is too young to understand. On the surface she appears to be ignoring and betraying Maria (as she does in, say, ep4); in reality the matter may have been considerably more complicated.

Maria's diary is a poor source for this, because Maria is nine. A nine-year-old doesn't easily understand how a parent could break a promise and still be acting in their child's best interest. There's enough evidence about Rosa to go either way, but most likely, they're both closer than you'd figure.
Well then maybe I should rephrase my statement as being about people who wield the theory badly? That was just a simple statement I was making, as I have encountered people that mischaraterize the theory as such. It's in no way a statement about the theory.

Renall, I'm more interested in your thoughts on my second statement, that was about the theory.

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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
My belief is that the series is showing real sides of the people invovled, more than just a set of imagined reconstructions of them. I think that is one of my core contentions with the author theory within it's most basic propositions.
This statement is not saying that the author theory doesn't impart meaning about the characters and events. My problem is rather that the scope of the meaning found is limited to the survivors and observers who read the material, and doesn't extend to the actual individuals it's talking about. The individuals; Rosa, Shannon, Jessica, George, Natsuhi, et cetera. I choose to believe they really did grow and gain from their experiences within the Fragments, and it wasn't just written for them.
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:35   Link #22242
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
How does her loving Maria change the fact she is a terrible mother?
Yeah I find the "white/black" way to judge things, especially when used to "erase all the black because some white was found" to be outright scary. Really no one should ever excuse the sort of behavior Rosa has with Maria.

It's probably a lot less amoral to see Rosa as 100% "black" then see her as 100% "white". Not that I'm encouraging to see her in either way.
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:59   Link #22243
Renall
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
My belief is that the series is showing real sides of the people invovled, more than just a set of imagined reconstructions of them. I think that is one of my core contentions with the author theory within it's most basic propositions.
But they are imagined reconstructions. Just reconstructions made by people who did actually know them (Yasu, Battler). There's more likely to be truth there than elsewhere, but characterization cannot sum up a real person. Look at the mess that is Kinzo; how much of that is true? Though it may initially seem impossible, the answer can be "all of it." People can be complicated and yes, even entirely contradictory; Rosa's whiplash behavior is completely at odds with how she claims she wishes to behave, yet it's totally believable or it wouldn't be so frightening.
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Old 2011-03-07, 13:53   Link #22244
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Let's take a look at Maria. Her mother is a terrible, terrible mother. She sees her as great because she loves her so much.
Maria doesn't see her mother as great, Maria has a lot of resentment and anger towards her mother that she tries to suppress with "magic". The series also points out that this doesn't work over the long haul, directly contradicting your idea that Ryukishi's message is one of "escapism is good".

In fact, the message of the series is actually pretty darn nuanced in regards to pointing out that escapism can be a coping method for those trapped in horrible situations and that there's no easy way to fix said situations. Escapism might have helped Maria in the short run, but in the long run, it actually hurt her emotional development.

Maria is a nine year old kid who has been taught from a very young age that authority figures outside her mother are not to be confided in. You really think Ange was helping the issue when she tried to destroy Maria's illusion of happiness in her diary? Umineko is about people, some of whom only have illusions. It's not saying that is an ideal way of life so much as it is about sympathizing with their situations and understanding why that sort of thing happens.
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:36   Link #22245
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
You will not find a single Author Theory advocate who believes the fictional nature of much of the characterization renders the narrative meaningless.
Two words: Youtube Comments.

Also, everything Musouka said.

To quote Hitherby Dragons, the characters that indulge in escapism feel like they're in hell, and hell is a place where you have no recourse. Regardless of whether or not they actually do or don't, they don't think they can really do anything about their horrible situations, and that self-impairment is what matters here. In some cases like Maria, there really IS nothing they can do, so attacking their escapism without giving them any other way to deal with their suffering is pointlessly cruel and is rooted only in either A) Spite and Cruelty, B) Misunderstood and Misapplied Benevolence, or 3) Being too emotionally retarded to understand what you're doing to the other person.
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Old 2011-03-07, 16:59   Link #22246
Renall
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Two words: Youtube Comments.
I don't think those people have the slightest idea what they're talking about with respect to any theory.
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Old 2011-03-07, 17:10   Link #22247
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The fact remains though that such people exist. Due to the existence of stupid people, you should never make broad generalization saying "NO ONE SERIOUSLY BELIEVES X."

Because someone does.
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Old 2011-03-07, 17:39   Link #22248
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I'm guessing these woudn't count as advocates of the Author Theory.
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Old 2011-03-07, 17:39   Link #22249
Renall
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I used the specific expression "Author Theory advocate." People who say "it's a fiction so it doesn't matter!" are not necessarily Author Theory subscribers. There are people who accept undeniably the fictional influence of the narrative yet do not consider themselves advocates for Author Theory.

So yes, I still maintain that, unless I've missed a person who essentially agrees with me or Judoh or Jan-Poo on 99% of things but then says "but it doesn't matter at all since it's all made up." Someone who makes that association would be against the theory on a fundamental level, as one cannot believe in the importance of authorial input and self-reflectiveness and believe that such things are irrelevant because they're "not real."
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Old 2011-03-07, 17:45   Link #22250
naever
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I'm usually a lurker, but today I feel like butting in. I apologize in advance. For... something.

I deeply sympathize with Keriaku's view, because I've been approaching this in a somewhat similar way for a while. It's the comfortable kind of theory that interferes so little with every other thing that you can kind of leave it alone in a corner of your head untouched and unscathed and almost forget it's there.

Actually, it's so unobstructive that it feels like it could be completely irrelevant, besides philosophical way of seeing things. At least in Umineko, since, as it's been pointed out before, the meta world doesn't seem to have much power over the real world anyway. But the thing for me is... I really can't accept yet that Umineko and Higurashi are completely unrelated. And, someone correct me if i'm wrong, the influence of the... supernatural forces, in Higurashi, were much more present, and powerful there.

The way I see things, Higurashi is a story about time loops and Umineko is a story about mystery tales in bottles but, ultimately, the franchise as a whole is a story about higher level beings who might not fully exist in the real world but exist in some level, as beings with real independent thoughts, feelings and free will. Also, the way these beings are born out of concepts of things and people, and how they might even interact with reality to a certain extent which not yet very clear. And that makes the whole idea that the meta world is real much more important, because really, the main characters here are really Battler and Beatrice, not Touya and Yashushaknonwhatsherface, and I care more about the former in their out-of-reality's-reach dimension than I'll ever care about the latter in their we-might-as-well-never-have-seen real world. And maybe you could say the same even as you think of them as simple fictional characters who can at most (slightly)reflect their real selves personality, but to me that feels a bit... empty. Not to step on any toes. Maybe it's just because it adds to the mass of "things that were hinted, then forgotten or never really explained" which everything the meta characters say or do is becoming to me.

It might be hopeless but... I still have hopes that the following "when they cry"s will not only bring back old characters again like bernkastel, but expand on the concept. Maybe it will even make sense then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But... the author is dead!
I kinda laughed, because even as I think this I feel happy that Ryuu can`t read english. No chance he'll ever find this and laugh his head off. Lately, I've been feeling like the only way I might salvage the whole experience of this series into something that is not soul-crushing for me is by clapping my ears and singing really loud.

...but maybe that would make him proud of me...?

Wow. Really, not just preaching your point... but actually making the reader live it? Now THAT is what I call genius.
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Old 2011-03-07, 17:55   Link #22251
Leafsnail
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So yes, I still maintain that, unless I've missed a person who essentially agrees with me or Judoh or Jan-Poo on 99% of things but then says "but it doesn't matter at all since it's all made up." Someone who makes that association would be against the theory on a fundamental level, as one cannot believe in the importance of authorial input and self-reflectiveness and believe that such things are irrelevant because they're "not real."
You'd have to be kindof hard headed to take such a view. It's not too far from "All fiction is made up so none of it matters on any level".
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Old 2011-03-07, 21:42   Link #22252
Renall
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
You'd have to be kindof hard headed to take such a view. It's not too far from "All fiction is made up so none of it matters on any level".
You would think that, but bear in mind that a person who doesn't bother to actually think about the things they say could attempt to hold the one position without holding the other, logical consequences be damned.
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Old 2011-03-07, 21:50   Link #22253
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Maria doesn't see her mother as great, Maria has a lot of resentment and anger towards her mother that she tries to suppress with "magic". The series also points out that this doesn't work over the long haul, directly contradicting your idea that Ryukishi's message is one of "escapism is good".
If you look at EP4 you see Maria frequently stating in her diary that she's happy, and she looks down on Ange that understands that obviously she's not.

Then later you see Maria slaughtering Rosa in her fantasies and repeating over and over that she can't forgive her. This is a true indicator of her real feelings, but the point is that when asked Maria denies denies and denies.

She even refuses to say that she's angry with her mother, rather creating the fictional persona of the "Black witch" in order to justify what happens.

But that's not what happens in the scene where she kills her mother over and over, in that case she recognizes her as her mother, not the black witch.

So there's clearly something wrong. Maria definitely can't see the truth neither of the world nor of herself.


On regards of the author theory, it's interesting to see that the point that Keriaku raised was the main critique to my "games are fictions" theory that I worked hard to defend before EP6.

I have a question to Keriaku and to those who agrees with him though. One of the points I stressed out with my fictional interpretation was that with such explanation Beatrice's actions could be seen on a completely different light.

Since it's fiction, the fact that she kills the pawns over and over and in horrible ways isn't a bad thing. Since they are fictional characters they do not really have feelings and they do not really suffer.

However if you deny the fictional interpretation you can no longer use this argument. How can you justify Beatrice for doing all that cruel things to sentient beings? Without any remorse... while laughing...

I can't hardly think about something more horrible.
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Old 2011-03-07, 22:03   Link #22254
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Since it's fiction, the fact that she kills the pawns over and over and in horrible ways isn't a bad thing. Since they are fictional characters they do not really have feelings and they do not really suffer.

However if you deny the fictional interpretation you can no longer use this argument. How can you justify Beatrice for doing all that cruel things to sentient beings? Without any remorse... while laughing...

I can't hardly think about something more horrible.
Well, she doesn't really have a choice, from one perspective. Even ignoring the "after a point Beatrice is a slave to Hachijo's writings" aspect, if she doesn't play to win, Lambdadelta will wipe her existence, pretty much.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.
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Old 2011-03-07, 22:06   Link #22255
Jan-Poo
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Ho? Battler makes a good point in EP3

"You are a witch, killing that's what you do, I understand that. But what's the point on such gratuitous cruelty?"
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Old 2011-03-07, 23:41   Link #22256
AuraTwilight
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And to that, I respond that if she wasn't overly cruel to Rosa, Battler wouldn't of continued playing for EP3 to even happen.
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Old 2011-03-08, 00:13   Link #22257
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But... but... most of Ryukishi's fans (in Japan) LIKE the gore Jan_Poo! How could that possibly seem evil to those beloved goats?
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Old 2011-03-08, 01:47   Link #22258
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
But... but... most of Ryukishi's fans (in Japan) LIKE the gore Jan_Poo! How could that possibly seem evil to those beloved goats?
"...Maria was poisoned in EP4 and probably had a nice, not-painful death? WHAT NONSENSE IS THIS!? YOU SUCK, RYUKISHI!"
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Old 2011-03-08, 05:30   Link #22259
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
You'd have to be kindof hard headed to take such a view. It's not too far from "All fiction is made up so none of it matters on any level".
While it seems like the position you hold is "because it is fiction it is meaningful".
Not any better IMO.
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Old 2011-03-08, 06:57   Link #22260
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Well, someone went to the effort of making it. I would hope it was meaningful or else the writer was just facefaulting the keyboard like a mental invalid.
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