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Old 2011-03-08, 15:55   Link #1581
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
You didn't actually watch the show did you.
Which is exactly what I am saying. It's better to ignore him and stop giving him any credibility, which he have lost since the day he described Victor Hugo and other writers as tragic Kafkaian figures who died lonely and underappreciated.
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Old 2011-03-08, 16:18   Link #1582
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Story-wise all that make sense but under a more realistic approach, all that are just a pile of mambo-jumbo.

1) QB assumes only girls about to enter puberty are emotional bombs or are trustworthy enough to accept a wish out of nowhere. Now what a big fat lie that is. 90% of humanity are emotional bombs who would brainlessly accept aid out of nowhere. Would a poor 50 year old male farmer say no to a heavenly creature who will instantly make him young again or rich as hell to finally enjoy his life away from the crappy village he wasted most of his life in? Would a 70 year old granny nun say no to getting superpowers and fught the injustice in the world, a thing she couldn't do her entire life closed in a monastery? I can go on forever but bottom line is "most would gladly accept, some wouldn't even care if there is a prise to all that".

2) As for the trust worthy girls who accept powers in every show, please notice how they do it WHILE they are under attack by monsters. So in a way they do it to save themselves because the alternative would mean death. And with no wish attached as an extra bonus as well.

3) And seriously, an advanced alien race finds it easier to deal with humanity by harvesting power from a bunch of little girls instead of just helping the republicans be in charge and in need of liberating oil from terrorists? (sarcasm) Or a death beam in the core of the Earth? Or convincing a nation that they are superior, Jesus ressurected from the dead, seas open at half because they said so? (more sarcasm) I mean, REALLY, this is the best plan they thought of? Do you know how easily an asteroid can be pulled of its course and towards Earth? Gravity does all the work and there is no triction in space. Hell, even if it burns in the atmosphere the world will go mad and bombs will fly around. I mean REALLY??? Didn't that plan make you feel your IQ dropped a few points?
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Well LOGH admitted to be full of ignorant and stupid ADULT people doing all sorts of mistakes with technology playing very little in the actual plot.

Madoka is magic-based imposed by an alien race which plans to destroy the world with the power some little girls generate.

Nope, LOGH does a much better job.
You are arguing logic within the show? It is fictions, we just have to take what is given to us as long as they do not contradict within the show. Kyube said young girls at puberty have more emotion energy and you just need to take his words for it. It is like arguing even in 21st century we do not have 100000+ soldiers rushing others on the open field. It is stupid, thus defy logic in LOGH that something happen far in the future, that we will see millions of soldiers and ships rushing each other on open field. It is also like arguing why the adults in LOGH is ignorant and stupid - they just are because the author said so.

btw, I am not referring to the stupid adults when I make my previous post. I am referring to Reinhard, who is supposed to be extremely smart. With Reinhard's resources, I can take out Yang Wenli very easily strategically/ politically. It is just plain stupid, under realistic logic, for Reinhard keep trying to gain an upper hand thru tactical means.

I am not arguing whether LOGH is a good or bad show. But in terms of logic and plot holes, LOGH had some really big one which people like you conveniently overlook.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:20   Link #1583
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Stop talking to whatever fan of roricon. He is basing his entire opinion from single blog which is stating 'madoka is not deep', without even watching it or knowing who Urobuchi really is.

Urobuchi and Shinbo the one who's placing all the screenplay, who are both known for giving entire focus on minor elements that people might not even care. Thus, everything has meanings (even Sayaka being mermaid is definitely intentional. Why random fish tail then?), even though it might be just a troll play.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:56   Link #1584
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
unfortunately reading comprehension seems to be a lost art.
Oh, no. I read all of the warnings about roriconfan.

I just like calling out obvious BS when I see it.
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Old 2011-03-08, 17:57   Link #1585
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Troll play? It's a send off from Revolutionary Girl Utena! Which is a Yuri Series.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:03   Link #1586
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Oh sheesh, the Mystlord rant. This was a completely terrible and amazingly oblivious critique of an anime he can't have watched closely. He's wrong on pretty much every development (there were multiple takedowns of his posting here, including one of mine).
Has there been a popular negative Madoka critique that was not torn apart by rabid Madoka fans?

Anyway, I decided to give that article a look and see what the commotion was about. I respect the critique (and respectfully disagree). I find some of his points compelling. The author seems pissed at the immediate flip-flop of the character's personalities. Some people would call that character development, he calls it character inconsistency. The following personality changes occur:

Homura went from making Madoka sad to being sad in front of Madoka.
Kyoko went from killing Sayaka to dying for Sayaka.
Sayaka went from saving the innocent to killing the innocent.

I admit I am biased; I like when those complete opposites happen suddenly, even without reason. For the reviewer, the sudden change in Homura's typically stern and serious personality into a sobbing, crumpled heap was too much of a character inconsistency to overlook. When I reconsider the scene, it would be more logical for Homura to give Madoka a stern rebuking. Until that point, Homura did not even so much as faze. So I understand what the author is saying.

Kyoko's change is far less sudden, but perhaps still poorly conceived. You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next. The very reason Kyoko and Sayaka were fighting was because Kyoko hated Sayaka's idealism. Suddenly, it is revealed that Kyoko actually loves those heroic stories, despite the tragic past exposition that was supposed to have turned Kyoko completely cynical. Even if Kyoko was hiding her adoration of Sayaka's ideals, I think the reviewer could have used more buildup and hints.

Finally, there is Sayaka. Naturally, her personality flip is the most justified (because the show focuses on her downward spiral the most). There were hints that Sayaka was a little crazy, and that her idealism was slowly mounting into insanity. She yelled at Madoka. Sayaka was conflicted when Hitomi confronted her. And very conflicted when Hitomi and Kyousuke were spotted together. I think the reviewer is wrong here.

Ultimately I understand the rant. I did not find the character inconsistencies bad enough to be noticeable, but upon further inspection, they exist. I appreciate the effort to go against popular opinion, and the reviewer's viewpoint is not that unreasonable.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:20   Link #1587
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If only his blog didn't come out like an impatient prick who thought this was the next elfen lied.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:22   Link #1588
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My overall view is similar to Deconstructor's.

In particular, I felt that Kyoko's sudden 180 (in her approach towards Sayaka) probably could have been handled a fair bit better. Even now, I experience whiplash just thinking about it.

Sayaka's descent into complete madness is a little hard for me to swallow, given how very emotionally well-adjusted and "normal" Sayaka came off in the first few episodes. I guess I would have preferred more of an "interim" stage there. In fairness, I suppose Gen may subscribe to The Joker's "One Bad Day" philosophy. Would help to explain Sayaka's maniacal laughter at the end of Episode 7.

I disagree with Mystlord on Homura (I was relieved to see her show some softer emotions, so I welcomed her crying scene).

I'm less sure on Madoka. With Madoka, a lot will depend on how her story ultimately ends. If she contracts with Kyubey within the next three episodes, when doing so earlier could have helped prevent Mami and Sayaka's deaths, then it will make her look worse, imo. On the other hand, if she doesn't contract with Kyubey, and finds a better way, then Madoka's overall approach will probably be soundly justified and vindicated. Madoka not changing much might be a big part of the theme of anime, actually, and if so, I'm obviously not going to fault Gen for keeping her largely static as a character.

Mystlord's more direct critiques of Gen, Shinbo, the musical score, rtc... are a bit excessive.


Overall, none of this is a "deal breaker" for me. This is still a very good anime. But I thought it might be interesting to delve into these critiques.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:30   Link #1589
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Sayaka's characterization makes sense. She tried to do things the idealistic way, and it only left her as a horrific bastardization of nature while basically robbing her of everything she loved. She said "Screw it" to life, and had an established reason to do so. Maybe I'm being too partial because her characterization is reeeeeeeeally similar to how I wrote a certain character in a certain route in Terrible Things Happen to Akane, but Sayaka makes sense to me.

Kyoko's characterization also makes sense. Through witnessing Sayaka's downward spiral, she saw where her own life was heading and decided to change sides. She befriended Sayaka out of sympathy. Abruptly being forced to face your own mortality generally has a big effect on you.

Sayaka and Kyoko are only nonsensical when you ignore the valid reasons they act the way they do.

Homura is the only one who currently makes no sense, but I hate every aspect of her except for that one thing she did and will continue to think of her as the show's Mashiro until she explains things. Not much to say there.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:58   Link #1590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Has there been a popular negative Madoka critique that was not torn apart by rabid Madoka fans?
I'm not rabid. I just find it silly to critique unfinished stories, but if the person is so compelled it helps if the opinion is balanced with reasons and thoughts on how they would have improved it. Simply ranting that you hate something doesn't make for an appealing read.

Quote:
Some people would call that character development, he calls it character inconsistency. The following personality changes occur:

Homura went from making Madoka sad to being sad in front of Madoka.
Kyoko went from killing Sayaka to dying for Sayaka.
Sayaka went from saving the innocent to killing the innocent.
1. Homura did what to make Madoka sad exactly? Kill Mami? Corrupt Sayaka? Madoka has been an emotional basket since episode 1. On the other hand Homura has been relatively unemotional up until episode 8. She's been working her ass off to stop Madoka from contracting, she just barely prevents it this time, and for one brief moment she explodes into emotion and this is somehow a bad thing? Sure it is obviously out of character. That's the point! She's frustrated! Think about it...does it really seem like she's been in control of anything since she arrived? Just because she has knowledge of key events, doesn't mean she knows exactly how the future will play out. She probably does lament Mami's death, and Sayaka's fall. She probably plays over and over again in her mind how things could have been different....if only. But she has a job to do, and it's getting more and more difficult.

2. Kyoko realized her tragic past could have been MUCH worse. The Soul Gem revelation shook up her and Sayaka in a big way. When Sayaka started turning to "the dark side", Kyoko saw the same rejection of life that she herself went through and felt a kindred spirit. It's understandable that the time line is short between her appearance and her death, but think about the revelations she just went through. Soul Gems are literally your soul (remember she's from a religious family), and then she finds out that Soul Gems become Grief Seeds. So not only did her wish curse her family, crushing her reasons for becoming a Magical Girl in the first place, she has been condemning humans to death and feeding her despair to what used to be Magical Girls just like her. On top of that, knowing that you will either die or become a Witch...Sayaka was her perfect counterpart.

3. We don't know if Sayaka actually killed anyone. It is implied, but the first rule of anime is corpse or it didn't happen. But consider that in a matter of days she lost the reason for her wish, felt betrayed by her friend, found out she's basically a living corpse, realized her sense of justice and ideals were naive, QB screws with her mind by telling her that Madoka could bear some of the burden and lets Sayaka (who isn't a powerful MG) assume that Madoka is just being selfish, she lashes out at Madoka and basically feels she lost everything and has nothing left.

It's a twelve episode series though...how much time is "perfect" for characters to flip flop? Is it the writing? I don't see people complaining about "filler" episodes that don't advance the plot in some way.

In the context of the story, given the running time and what needs to be covered to progress the plot, these events are believable. Trying to hate the story because it jars your own personal desire to see events play out differently, and calling it inconsistent, especially when the story isn't even done yet, just seems presumptuous at best.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:02   Link #1591
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Sayaka's characterization makes sense. She tried to do things the idealistic way, and it only left her as a horrific bastardization of nature while basically robbing her of everything she loved. She said "Screw it" to life, and had an established reason to do so. Maybe I'm being too partial because her characterization is reeeeeeeeally similar to how I wrote a certain character in a certain route in Terrible Things Happen to Akane, but Sayaka makes sense to me.
Sayaka didn't even try to soldier through. She folded far too easily given her earlier established characterization, imo.

Again, it's not the changes that her and Kyoko underwent, it's how rapidly they underwent them. There was no real interim phase. There was no obvious moments of self-reflection that logically leads from one position to the diametrically opposed position. People rarely make big switches like that, and when they do, it usually takes time.


In fairness, though, this might be an issue imposed by the time limitations that Gen had to deal with (i.e. 12 anime episodes). If this was your typical length visual novel, Gen probably would have been able to flesh these changes out a lot better.

It might be interesting if Madoka Magica gets a sequel based on a Higurashi/Umineko format (i.e. Homura has to jump to a new timeline, and we watch these events unfold all over again, just a bit differently). Such a format would allow us to explore each character from multiple angles, adding to our understanding of them perhaps.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:11   Link #1592
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sayaka didn't even try to soldier through.
Yes she did. That's what the whole being a Warrior of Justice thing was all about, before finding out about the whole having-your-soul-ripped-out-and-your-body-reduced-to-a-living-corpse deal and things just getting progressively worse from there.

In her mind, as long as Kamijou could play his violin, everything would be okay. And then everything turned out to be anything but okay.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:12   Link #1593
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My, look at all the hate over me. If I am really a troll, I get to like all this attension you know. But in reality I just want to point out stuff because I am making a review about it and your replies give me feedback.

So ok, let's just say realism is not an issue at all here. Let's just say it is the internal logic of the series to have super energy coming out of girls that saves the universe. If the in-laws of the show were constant, then I would be more than willing to not mind it anymore. But the problem is, episode 9 pretty much "Bleached" its own laws by making random stuff that contradict everything that was explained before. So no, it is no longer an issue of realism and how LOGH is equally stupid. LOGH never contradicted its own in-laws as Madoka just did in episode 9, which is disappointing at the least. Here is a list of all the things the show trolled in the latest episode.

1. Both Mami and Kyoko said that familiars turn to witches and that some witches drop witch eggs. All I saw was Sayaka turning to a witch immediately, contradicting all we were told before. And where do soul gems go if not all witches have one? Where do the soul gems of dead magical girls go? Is their energy still able to be collected by QB? If not, 50% of the total energy is lost right there.

2. QB explained his plan to Madoka, when she didn't even ask for an explaination. That is clearly a very poor exposition of the mystery and even contradics QB's plan to make Madoka a magical girl. He lowered the chances of admiting to become one by explaining everything.

3. Kyoko blew up along with witch Sayaka when for all we know she could just defeat her and head to fight the big boss along with Homura, thus sparing Madoka from becoming a magical girl herself. She also became from worst enemy to Sayaka's best friend in, like, 10 seconds. Again, completely contradictory.

4. Hey Madoka, you don't even have a problem if you can wish anything. Wishes are a broken power and a great deus ex machina you know. Wish for all the witches in the world to die. You will never need to fight and the universe is instantly saved. You don't want to do it yourself? Find any other girl to wish it for you. Too cruel? Just wish for your friends to come back to life and everybody is happy again. It is so simple, really.

There, the very core themes of the show are contradicted right here. If you call even them unimportant, then you belong to those who don't even mind how Kubo writes his stories. And this last part is indeed a troll XD.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:16   Link #1594
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
Yes she did.
I meant from the moment that Hitomi made her "I'm interested in Kamijo too" statement to Sayaka. And no, she didn't try to soldier through after that moment.

Mystlord is right, I think, that Sayaka doesn't really start to change her overall approach until then. Sayaka was quite resolute in what she said to Kyoko before then.

And, look, to say "I can't hug him! I can't kiss him!" while you're currently hugging another person and crying on her shoulder... that's a bit much, isn't it?


Quote:

In her mind, as long as Kamijou could play his violin, everything would be okay.
He's still able to play the violin...
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:17   Link #1595
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Sayaka didn't even try to soldier through. She folded far too easily given her earlier established characterization, imo.
She folded quickly exactly because of her established characterization. She built up a barrier of ideals about justice, fairness, truth, etc. She used her wish to heal Kamijou but what she really wanted was his love (note: this is symbolized all over her lair after she turns into a Witch). Simply put, Sayaka could not admit her true feelings and instead bottled them up until they exploded. All it took was one thing to shake her confidence and make her doubt, which was the Soul Gem reveal. From there it just spiraled down further and further.

People can and do crash quickly and crash hard. For example, you work your entire life to earn a position at your place of employment and you feel betrayed because someone else "took your spot". Many of us would just repress it and turn to bad habits like alcoholism. Some of us accept it and move on. Others buy a gun and lash out.

Sayaka repressed it. She rejected everything after her ideals, hopes, and dreams appeared to be broken. But she was on a timer. If she wasn't a Magical Girl, she might have been saved before the gem broke. It doesn't matter how often you reach out to people who feel lost, they have to be ready to accept it. What is so tragic about her last line "I'm such a fool" is that she was ready, but her time was up.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:23   Link #1596
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
He's still able to play the violin...
Yeah, while leaving Sayaka irrevocably cursed, alone, and broken.

The entire point is she didn't think things through and her idealism caused her downfall.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:24   Link #1597
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
She folded quickly exactly because of her established characterization. She built up a barrier of ideals about justice, fairness, truth, etc.
I simply disagree with you here, and I find your overall take on Sayaka to be rather harsh and negative (not in this post, but in a previous one you wrote on this thread).

I don't think that Sayaka's ideals were simply "a barrier". I think that they were sincerely held beliefs and values for her. And given the personal strength she had shown before (which is what I meant by her "established characterization"), I think that she folded far too quickly.

I mean, while Sayaka wasn't fearless, she wasn't a weak person either. She was quite willing to battle Kyoko to the death, after all, while knowing that she was the inexperienced underdog in that fight.


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The entire point is she didn't think things through and her idealism caused her downfall.
I agree that there was some things that she didn't think through.

I disagree, though, that her idealism caused her downfall. If she had stuck to her idealism, maybe her downfall never happens.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:33   Link #1598
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
I disagree, though, that her idealism caused her downfall. If she had stuck to her idealism, maybe her downfall never happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod
The entire point is she didn't think things through and her idealism caused her downfall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace
People can and do crash quickly and crash hard. For example, you work your entire life to earn a position at your place of employment and you feel betrayed because someone else "took your spot". Many of us would just repress it and turn to bad habits like alcoholism. Some of us accept it and move on. Others buy a gun and lash out.
The discussion feels more like a discussion of philosophy and sociology rather than anime
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:42   Link #1599
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I disagree, though, that her idealism caused her downfall. If she had stuck to her idealism, maybe her downfall never happens.
Yes and no.

Had she remained her usual plucky self, she may have realized she could still share a relationship with Kamijou and became more assertive of her feelings toward him.

But what would a relationship actually be worth at that point? Barring a radical change in storytelling direction (which WOULD be lolrandom), idealism isn't going to reverse her zombified state. Idealism isn't going to win her back any semblance of a normal life she could actually spend with Kamijou. Idealism isn't going to change the fact she has to spend the rest of her existence fighting Witches.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:42   Link #1600
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I mean, while Sayaka wasn't fearless, she wasn't a weak person either.
Ok, let me rephrase this. She wasn't weak, she was inflexible. She convinced herself that she had no regrets for wishing Kamijou healed, until Hitomi announced her love for him. She felt like her body wasn't her own after finding out that her soul was ripped from her body. So not only is she in danger of losing her love to another person, the actual intent of her wish was wasted (that his healing would be reciprocated with his love), but now she feels that her own body is alien to her and that he wouldn't be touching her, just some "zombie".

In her despair, she rejects Madoka, laments her "missed" opportunity to confess to her love, beats the hell out of some Witches but her rejection of the Magical Girl system means she can't refresh her Soul Gem, rejects Homura's offer to help and then meets two jackasses on the train who make her wonder what the hell she is even fighting for in the first place.

Her sense of justice, her ideals, her hopes, her dreams, her friends, her love, all of it she felt betrayed by. In her lamenting and despair she realizes how stupid she was, but it's too late. Her rigid outlook on life was her downfall.

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The discussion feels more like a discussion of philosophy and sociology rather than anime
Wha? I thought this series was all just some illogical, inconsistent writing done by some hackjob past his prime?
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