AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Madoka Magica

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-08, 19:47   Link #1601
roriconfan
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thessaloniki - Greece
Send a message via MSN to roriconfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Wha? I thought this series was all just some illogical, inconsistent writing done by some hackjob past his prime?
But he is inconsistent.
roriconfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 19:52   Link #1602
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
But he is inconsistent.
To you.
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 19:54   Link #1603
roriconfan
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Thessaloniki - Greece
Send a message via MSN to roriconfan
Yeah I guess it is only me who found Kyoko's 180 turn to be weird or QB explaining everything and thus making his job harder.
roriconfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:01   Link #1604
Crontica
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
If she bewitched him into loving her it sure as hell would've played out a lot worse, Lelouchie guarantees this.
__________________
Crontica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:04   Link #1605
Hagoshod
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Send a message via AIM to Hagoshod
The problem with Homura is that her personality is all over the place. Yeah, she completely broke down in episode 8 when she barely stopped Madoka from making a contract, but she always barely stops Madoka from making a contract.

And I would probably find the absurdity of her episode 8 breakdown more forgivable if it actually led to something. Once the cat's out of the bag (pun possibly intended depending on Homura's exact origin), you need to follow up and explain what the hell is going on. In spite of this, Homura is immediately back in her "icy bitch" persona in episode 9 as if her earlier outburst never even happened. This doesn't make her look more mysterious or show that her personality is multi-faceted. It only makes her breakdown all the more random and nonsensical.

Furthermore, we're supposed to believe that Homura is soooo worried about Madoka cursing herself and putting herself through hell that Homura completely throws herself to the ground wailing in episode 8, but she doesn't give the slightest crap about Madoka's emotional state upon seeing lifeless corpse of her best friend one episode later. Instead she goes "herp derp I'M MYSTERIOUS," walks away, and allows QB go to Madoka's room and try to form a contract AGAIN. Even in the context of "Homura doesn't care about anyone but Madoka," this makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Yeah I guess it is only me who found ... QB explaining everything and thus making his job harder.
It doesn't make his job harder; it makes it easier.

His explanation about entropy and aliens was complete bull specifically DESIGNED to be so complicated it would go over the average teenager's head. It provides a reason for his actions up to that point while providing a clump of irrelevant information to hide his true motives. He made up some gibberish so Madoka would spend all of her effort simply trying to understand his fake plan rather than think about what he may really want.

If he had provided no explanation at all and never went to Madoka's room, Madoka would be left to think about whether or not he intentionally deceived Sayaka into getting killed, which would cause Madoka to build doubt against him, which would ultimately make his job harder.

Last edited by Hagoshod; 2011-03-08 at 20:23.
Hagoshod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:05   Link #1606
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Yeah I guess it is only me who found Kyoko's 180 turn to be weird or QB explaining everything and thus making his job harder.
Sigh. What, you want explanations handed out on a silver platter? Do stories have to spell everything out perfectly for you to be happy? There is a ton of discussion and material out there, even a very well maintained wiki. It isn't my fault that you espouse your opinions without considering what others have stated, or apply any critical thinking or knowledge to try and understand why the writer would write the story the way it is presented. You say that it is inconsistent, that it is illogical. That's fine. It's your opinion. Did you ever consider the reasons why you see those inconsistencies beyond simply blaming it on poor writing?

I'm sorry but I'm not going to rehash my opinions again, just to make you happy. It's fine if you don't find what you want in the show, but don't expect everyone else to cater to your demands for answers either.
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:09   Link #1607
MaiNoKen
◕ ‿‿ ◕
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod
Furthermore, we're supposed to believe that Homura is soooo worried about Madoka cursing herself and putting herself through hell that Homura completely throws herself to the ground wailing in episode 8, but she doesn't give the slightest crap about Madoka's emotional state upon seeing lifeless corpse of her best friend one episode later. Instead she goes "herp derp I'M MYSTERIOUS," walks again, and allows QB go to Madoka's room and try to form a contract AGAIN. Even in the context of "Homura doesn't care about anyone but Madoka," this makes no sense.
Episode 10 is supposed to be revealing about Homura, so I guess I think we will stay tuned what her true intents and psyche.

And from taking a pure sociological view, sometimes being harsh and cold are needed to get people to move in a positive manner. (Sometimes the opposite is true... it kind depends on the situation)
MaiNoKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:15   Link #1608
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I'm not rabid. I just find it silly to critique unfinished stories, but if the person is so compelled it helps if the opinion is balanced with reasons and thoughts on how they would have improved it. Simply ranting that you hate something doesn't make for an appealing read.
It is indeed a rant, but the reviewer tells us why he hated the personality shifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
1. Homura did what to make Madoka sad exactly? Kill Mami? Corrupt Sayaka?
"I don't want to help you."
Homura, whether she wanted to or not, has made Madoka feel helpless and distraught. Homura seems like a cold, cruel character for the first seven episodes. Her lack of emotion has that effect on people; Sayaka was not particularly happy with the way Homura was treating Madoka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
She's been working her ass off to stop Madoka from contracting, she just barely prevents it this time, and for one brief moment she explodes into emotion and this is somehow a bad thing? Sure it is obviously out of character. That's the point! She's frustrated!
Well, at least you admit it is out of character. I admit as well, I enjoy watching the unflappable Homura break down into tears.
I can only suggest that you attempt to see it from another person's point of view... some people enjoy watching the characters develop with a consistent, linear progression. Homura was more of a steep drop in personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
2. Kyoko realized her tragic past could have been MUCH worse. The Soul Gem revelation shook up her and Sayaka in a big way. When Sayaka started turning to "the dark side", Kyoko saw the same rejection of life that she herself went through and felt a kindred spirit. It's understandable that the time line is short between her appearance and her death, but think about the revelations she just went through.
The Soul Gem definitely affected Kyoko deeply. Afterward, Kyoko proceeded to give a speech about why helping others will never work out in the end. The reviewer is confused as to why Kyoko's words are so quickly contradicted by her actions. If Kyoko was in fact feeling the "kindred spirit" the show should have at least inserted a scene showing the development of Kyoko's ideals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
3. We don't know if Sayaka actually killed anyone. It is implied, but the first rule of anime is corpse or it didn't happen.
It is safe to say Sayaka killed those people. At the least, she was thinking of killing them.
You should read the rest of my post; I defend Sayaka's sudden change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
It's a twelve episode series though...how much time is "perfect" for characters to flip flop? Is it the writing? I don't see people complaining about "filler" episodes that don't advance the plot in some way.
The reviewer would argue the length of the show should not influence his viewing experience.
He simply felt that the story was poorly conceived, and passionately stabbed it with the knife of critique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
In the context of the story, given the running time and what needs to be covered to progress the plot, these events are believable. Trying to hate the story because it jars your own personal desire to see events play out differently, and calling it inconsistent, especially when the story isn't even done yet, just seems presumptuous at best.
Likewise, hating the reviewer because he sounds arrogant and disagrees with popular opinion (the worst combination imaginable) is also somewhat presumptuous. Neither affects the content of the argument, which I find justified with personal reasoning and opinion.

This is a review of an episode... inevitably, some things will change because the author has not seen the whole season. I have to ask: Should the author ignore unenjoyable inconsistencies now because it might be addressed later? Even if Homura has some awesome reason for being a total jerk to Madoka, the damage has been done. The reviewer is definitely angry at the plot of episode 8. In the time frame of that episode, the inconsistency negatively affected his viewing experience.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:42   Link #1609
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
The problem with Homura is that her personality is all over the place.
My sense is that Homura has consciously chosen to go with a "tough love" fear-based approach. Her aim has been to scare Madoka shitless, basically.

I think that's why she's so appallingly cold towards Madoka in the immediate aftermath of Mami's death, and during the presentation of Sayaka's lifeless body. She doesn't want Madoka to be comforted during these moments, she wants Madoka to be so traumatized by them that she'll be too scared to even consider entering into this magical girl world as a magical girl herself.

It's a harsh, harsh approach, and I honestly question it at a sheer pragmatic level. But I think it's mostly a case of Homura playing a role, assuming a mask if you will.

Seeing Madoka come one word away from contracting with Kyubey in Episode 8 was simply the breaking point for Homura. She couldn't keep up the act during that moment, and hence the mask was temporarily taken off, and Homura's love for Madoka just poured out unrestrained.

But once Homura got her emotions under control again, she put the mask back on, and continued on anew.

It's not that strange. I've seen the same sort of thing from Batman/Bruce Wayne, particularly in the Timmverse. If Batman was a magical girl, he would basically be Homura.


Quote:
And I would probably find the absurdity of her episode 8 breakdown more forgivable if it actually led to something. Once the cat's out of the bag (pun possibly intended depending on Homura's exact origin), you need to follow up and explain what the hell is going on. In spite of this, Homura is immediately back in her "icy bitch" persona in episode 9 as if her earlier outburst never even happened. This doesn't make her look more mysterious or show that her personality is multi-faceted. It only makes her breakdown all the more random and nonsensical.
Well, I respect your perspective here. I will say that Homura probably needs a few more "softer" moments. I expect we'll get them in Episode 10.


Quote:

Furthermore, we're supposed to believe that Homura is soooo worried about Madoka cursing herself and putting herself through hell that Homura completely throws herself to the ground wailing in episode 8, but she doesn't give the slightest crap about Madoka's emotional state upon seeing lifeless corpse of her best friend one episode later. Instead she goes "herp derp I'M MYSTERIOUS," walks away, and allows QB go to Madoka's room and try to form a contract AGAIN. Even in the context of "Homura doesn't care about anyone but Madoka," this makes no sense.
Homura can't monitor Kyubey 24/7. I assume the girl has to sleep at some point.


Quote:
It doesn't make his job harder; it makes it easier.

His explanation about entropy and aliens was complete bull specifically DESIGNED to be so complicated it would go over the average teenager's head. It provides a reason for his actions up to that point while providing a clump of irrelevant information to hide his true motives. He made up some gibberish so Madoka would spend all of her effort simply trying to understand his fake plan rather than think about what he may really want.
Interesting interpretation. I hope that you're right, actually.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:47   Link #1610
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
It is indeed a rant, but the reviewer tells us why he hated the personality shifts.
He did, I won't deny that. I'll answer the rest near the end.

Quote:
"I don't want to help you."
Homura, whether she wanted to or not, has made Madoka feel helpless and distraught. Homura seems like a cold, cruel character for the first seven episodes. Her lack of emotion has that effect on people; Sayaka was not particularly happy with the way Homura was treating Madoka.
True but we know nothing about Homura. Next to QB, she's the most unexplained character on the show. To make it worse, she doesn't get constant screentime. The only thing we know is that she doesn't want Madoka to contract. It's difficult to criticize a character when they aren't explained. If the show was over and this was all we got, then yes, feel free to go "wtf". Until then what's the point?

Quote:
Well, at least you admit it is out of character. I admit as well, I enjoy watching the unflappable Homura break down into tears.
I can only suggest that you attempt to see it from another person's point of view... some people enjoy watching the characters develop with a consistent, linear progression. Homura was more of a steep drop in personality.
The problem is that Homura isn't really developed at all. This will (hopefully) change in the next episode, but asking for consistent and linear progression for Homura is like asking for the same out of Tuxedo Mask five episodes into Sailor Moon.

Quote:
The Soul Gem definitely affected Kyoko deeply. Afterward, Kyoko proceeded to give a speech about why helping others will never work out in the end. The reviewer is confused as to why Kyoko's words are so quickly contradicted by her actions. If Kyoko was in fact feeling the "kindred spirit" the show should have at least inserted a scene showing the development of Kyoko's ideals.
Her speech was that Madoka should choose to be a Magical Girl because she has no other way to protect the things she loves. She says that becoming one and throwing away your life when you have other choices available still is selfish and stupid. One would think she knows this from experience.

As for the kindred spirit thing, sure I guess they could have thrown in more scenes. They didn't but I do realize that many viewers have a difficult time watching for context and subtext as opposed to just being shown everything in a literal and blatant fashion. The actions she took and the meaning of her words allowed me to figure out her change in character enough for me to be satisfied. I can't pretend to project that on anyone else, but it's not my problem either. If I'm outlining my reasons why I believe something, and support it with facts from the show, and someone digs into their view and says "yeah but I still don't see it", then turns it back on me as if I'm just pulling it out of my ass, what am I supposed to do?

Quote:
It is safe to say Sayaka killed those people. At the least, she was thinking of killing them.
You should read the rest of my post; I defend Sayaka's sudden change.
Her killing those people or not is speculation. I don't think she did, but hey that's arguable since neither of us are likely to know the real answer. I do agree she was thinking of something nasty...homicide? Dunno. But I do agree they didn't get away unscathed...the screams are testament to that.

Quote:
The reviewer would argue the length of the show should not influence his viewing experience.
He simply felt that the story was poorly conceived, and passionately stabbed it with the knife of critique.
Again I argue that "reviewing" a show that is built around not telling you things until it is ready makes it difficult to be overly judgmental. If his anger was toned down, or balanced with some positive points, maybe he wouldn't come across so jaded and disbelieving.

Quote:
Likewise, hating the reviewer because he sounds arrogant and disagrees with popular opinion (the worst combination imaginable) is also somewhat presumptuous. Neither affects the content of the argument, which I find justified with personal reasoning and opinion.
I don't hate the reviewer. I dislike his rant. Maybe that makes me presumptuous too. Oh well. Do either affect the content, no. But his reasoning and opinion just read like someone who expected one thing and got another, or rather, he isn't willing to look any deeper into the story and form his own conclusions because he's too distracted by the reflection on the surface.

Quote:
This is a review of an episode... inevitably, some things will change because the author has not seen the whole season. I have to ask: Should the author ignore unenjoyable inconsistencies now because it might be addressed later? Even if Homura has some awesome reason for being a total jerk to Madoka, the damage has been done. The reviewer is definitely angry at the plot of episode 8. In the time frame of that episode, the inconsistency negatively affected his viewing experience.
First question, imo, the answer is yes. Things change in stories, the easiest example is all the people that wrote off the show as "generic" before episode 3. Some of them didn't return, convinced they saw what the show had to offer. Damage was done? I guess.

I can agree with the second one, but only to the point that I don't go on a angst filled "review" of why I hate the show now because something doesn't add up or happen the way I expect it to go. I've mentioned before that there are some issues with inconsistencies and the like, not even a few pages back. I explicitly stated that this was a story that cannot work without them.

If that offends the minds of people who expect logical, methodical plot progression where everything is spelled out for them, oh well.
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 20:54   Link #1611
totoum
Gamer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to totoum
Ah,there's drama in this thread,roriconfan must be around (and no I'm not hatin',I can't hate on someone that likes Dennou Coil and Panty & Stocking)
And before someone asks,yes,I enjoy replying to roriconfan,let me have my fun.thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
1. Both Mami and Kyoko said that familiars turn to witches and that some witches drop witch eggs. All I saw was Sayaka turning to a witch immediately, contradicting all we were told before. And where do soul gems go if not all witches have one? Where do the soul gems of dead magical girls go? Is their energy still able to be collected by QB? If not, 50% of the total energy is lost right there.

Where to begin,first up it seems you're quite confused.
When completely darkened,the soul gem transforms into a grief seed that hatches and gives birth to a witch,that's what happened to Sayaka.All witches will drop grief seeds,if it doesn't drop a grief seed then it's a familiar not a witch.
Witches don't have soul gems,they have grief seeds,if a magical girl becomes a witch her soul gem becomes her grief seed.
Where do the soul gems of dead magical girls go? Well a magical girl can't die unless her soulgem is destroyed so if the girl is dead then there's no soulgem to worry about.

Quote:
2. QB explained his plan to Madoka, when she didn't even ask for an explaination. That is clearly a very poor exposition of the mystery and even contradics QB's plan to make Madoka a magical girl. He lowered the chances of admiting to become one by explaining everything.
Answering this before the show is over is tricky,because you know since the show isn't over there are all kinds of explenations that are proposed to explain this going from "QB is lying and that's not his real plan" to "QB tells it to madoka because he doesn't see anything wrong with what he'd doing and hoped madoka would understand" and a bunch of other explanations,but we can't know anything for sure until the last episode has aired

Quote:
3. Kyoko blew up along with witch Sayaka when for all we know she could just defeat her and head to fight the big boss along with Homura, thus sparing Madoka from becoming a magical girl herself. She also became from worst enemy to Sayaka's best friend in, like, 10 seconds. Again, completely contradictory.
That's the most valid one you've got,but still,we know that she's been using up a bunch of magic to keep sayaka's body warm,that cumulated with her defending Madoka while she was making her friendship speech could mean she just didn't have much magic left in her,and it looks like she had no grief seeds with her.
In any case she thought she couldn't be of any use to Homura against the big boss,that's one of the last things she told Homura.So her thought process didn't go "I don't care about helping against the boss,screw all this" but "Looks like I won't be of real use against the big boss,Homura is better off without me".

Quote:
4. Hey Madoka, you don't even have a problem if you can wish anything. Wishes are a broken power and a great deus ex machina you know. Wish for all the witches in the world to die. You will never need to fight and the universe is instantly saved. You don't want to do it yourself? Find any other girl to wish it for you. Too cruel? Just wish for your friends to come back to life and everybody is happy again. It is so simple, really.
Did you just say " Wish for all the witches in the world to die. "?Congratulation roriconfan!You just turned Madoka into a witch!See as part of the deal she still has her soul exctracted and now has a soulgem that blackens,so she's going to need grief seeds to purify it and she just got rid of her only source of grief seeds meaning she can't purify her soul gem so it will darken and she'll become a witch,she might choose to kill herself instead by destroying her gem.
That is of course if QB can actually grant you any wish,some say he's lying,we won't know for sure until the end of the show.
__________________
totoum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 22:01   Link #1612
sa547
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 37
To the Greek: since I believe that you write in your free time, write a Madoka fixfic, and besides, not everyone has seen LOGH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralha View Post
Nice kickoff to the Winter season.

Strong Nanoha vibes, with an animation style that puts me in mind of Saikano. Great OP and BGM. Interesting architecture/setting. Lots of good weird stuff going on to hook me in.
Based from your list, you're so much in favor of Nanoha. Too bad, you should hang on till Episode 12 and make up you mind whether this show can be worth keeping or forgetting.

Regarding some of those review blogs, well, not all of them are considered reliable sources of information.
__________________
sa547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 22:13   Link #1613
MaiNoKen
◕ ‿‿ ◕
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Neo-Venezia, Planet Aqua (Mars)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa547
Based from your list, you're so much in favor of Nanoha. Too bad, you should hang on till Episode 12 and make up you mind whether this show can be worth keeping or forgetting.
I really hope the Madoka (I think everyone does) will end with a high note. It has been quite a long time any series generated so much fan reaction (and controversy). If Madoka ends good, it may show those Japanese otaku-culture naysayers (like Keiji Inafune and even great Miyazaki himself) things are not that hopeless as they think.

Sometimes people making deliberate long rants and critical analysis about the series is actually a good thing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar Wilde
The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
(wink)

Last edited by MaiNoKen; 2011-03-08 at 22:24.
MaiNoKen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 22:48   Link #1614
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
I personally disagree with everything the reviewer said, but I do not think all this hate is warranted on someone who was just expressing his true feelings. The reviewer was a staunch fan of Madoka up to episode 7, so that episode really struck some chords within him. I am merely trying to understand his feelings. One way to do that is to pretend I'm him, and argue from his point of view. Hopefully, some of the dislike will be lessened if his perspective is rephrased in a more... neutral manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The problem is that Homura isn't really developed at all. This will (hopefully) change in the next episode, but asking for consistent and linear progression for Homura is like asking for the same out of Tuxedo Mask five episodes into Sailor Moon.
The reviewer would argue that Homura is more developed than Tuxedo Mask. Many things have been revealed about Homura; I don't think Tuxedo Mask even spoke at this point in Sailor Moon. We know Homura has powers of time manipulation and she is unwilling to let Kyubey contract Madoka in fear of his true plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Her speech was that Madoka should choose to be a Magical Girl because she has no other way to protect the things she loves. She says that becoming one and throwing away your life when you have other choices available still is selfish and stupid. One would think she knows this from experience.
Ah, you are referring to Kyoko's speech to Madoka; I was referring to Kyoko's speech to Sayaka. At the least, I think the reviewer would question the sudden change in attitude between the two speeches. One episode, she says people are not worth saving. The next, people are totally worth saving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The actions she took and the meaning of her words allowed me to figure out her change in character enough for me to be satisfied. I can't pretend to project that on anyone else, but it's not my problem either. If I'm outlining my reasons why I believe something, and support it with facts from the show, and someone digs into their view and says "yeah but I still don't see it", then turns it back on me as if I'm just pulling it out of my ass, what am I supposed to do?
I think you support your position well. Better than the reviewer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Her killing those people or not is speculation. I don't think she did, but hey that's arguable since neither of us are likely to know the real answer. I do agree she was thinking of something nasty...homicide? Dunno. But I do agree they didn't get away unscathed...the screams are testament to that.
The point is more that Sayaka's mentality made a complete turnaround. She initially becomes a Puella Magi to protect people, but ends up with thoughts of hurting them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Again I argue that "reviewing" a show that is built around not telling you things until it is ready makes it difficult to be overly judgmental. If his anger was toned down, or balanced with some positive points, maybe he wouldn't come across so jaded and disbelieving.
I see. At the same time, if someone dislikes the episode, I think they have the right to make judgments, criticize the story, and explain their feelings to other people. Maybe that's no excuse to offend so many people, but the ranting style stays true to his feelings. I can understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I don't hate the reviewer. I dislike his rant. Maybe that makes me presumptuous too. Oh well. Do either affect the content, no. But his reasoning and opinion just read like someone who expected one thing and got another, or rather, he isn't willing to look any deeper into the story and form his own conclusions because he's too distracted by the reflection on the surface.
I think you dislike the reviewer too, but some dislike is necessary to have an opinion. Some people only use first impressions as a judgmental basis. I find no problem with that, or with people criticizing him. However, some of the comments are written in even greater anger than the original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
First question, imo, the answer is yes. Things change in stories, the easiest example is all the people that wrote off the show as "generic" before episode 3. Some of them didn't return, convinced they saw what the show had to offer. Damage was done? I guess.
Yeah, the damage was definitely dealt with Mami's death. But many people kept watching, intrigued by where the show would go from there. Not everyone can be pleased, and yet I understand why some people chose to stop watching. Their opinion of the show is just as valid as my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I can agree with the second one, but only to the point that I don't go on a angst filled "review" of why I hate the show now because something doesn't add up or happen the way I expect it to go. I've mentioned before that there are some issues with inconsistencies and the like, not even a few pages back. I explicitly stated that this was a story that cannot work without them.

If that offends the minds of people who expect logical, methodical plot progression where everything is spelled out for them, oh well.
I think the inconsistencies of Madoka Magica are nowhere near enough to affect how much I enjoy it. Honestly, I don't even think of those when I watch. It is after the episode that the Internet reveals them to me.

Yet I cannot speak for someone else. This reviewer may think in only one, narrow-minded way, but it's an interesting way, one different from most others. I think your criticism of him is fair, and I might be giving his opinion far too much credit. Still, I want to be open to other ideas.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 23:12   Link #1615
Crontica
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: My Desk
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaiNoKen View Post
(wink)
*Talks about MaiNoKen in her sleep with popsicle and pitchfork to ward off fairies*
__________________
Crontica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 23:33   Link #1616
Solace
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I personally disagree with everything the reviewer said, but I do not think all this hate is warranted on someone who was just expressing his true feelings. The reviewer was a staunch fan of Madoka up to episode 7, so that episode really struck some chords within him. I am merely trying to understand his feelings. One way to do that is to pretend I'm him, and argue from his point of view. Hopefully, some of the dislike will be lessened if his perspective is rephrased in a more... neutral manner.
I understand where he is coming from. But instead of ranting about it, I took a step back and thought about why such things existed. Episode 9 helped add more information, but yes I did rage at QB most of the episode. I get that you're playing devil's advocate, but it's not needed. I just disagree with his style, and feel his points are hurt by it.

Quote:
The reviewer would argue that Homura is more developed than Tuxedo Mask. Many things have been revealed about Homura; I don't think Tuxedo Mask even spoke at this point in Sailor Moon. We know Homura has powers of time manipulation and she is unwilling to let Kyubey contract Madoka in fear of his true plan.
We know fragments of the story, and we know that eventually answers will come. The inconsistency comes from not knowing all the pieces to the puzzle, imo. As I said, if it still seems inconsistent after the show has finished then I would agree that it was a flaw.

Quote:
Ah, you are referring to Kyoko's speech to Madoka; I was referring to Kyoko's speech to Sayaka. At the least, I think the reviewer would question the sudden change in attitude between the two speeches. One episode, she says people are not worth saving. The next, people are totally worth saving.
Gotcha. Well the difference is between one really major event. Big events change people, it's been a running theme in the show. Every revelation changes the characters profoundly.

Quote:
I think you support your position well. Better than the reviewer...
Thank you.

Quote:
The point is more that Sayaka's mentality made a complete turnaround. She initially becomes a Puella Magi to protect people, but ends up with thoughts of hurting them.
She did, and so did Kyouko. I'm not arguing that they didn't. I'm pointing out that the reasons why are there, and that criticisms can be made that it could have been clearer/more elaborate, but not that it wasn't logical or inconsistent.

Quote:
I see. At the same time, if someone dislikes the episode, I think they have the right to make judgments, criticize the story, and explain their feelings to other people. Maybe that's no excuse to offend so many people, but the ranting style stays true to his feelings. I can understand that.
I have no qualms about others expressing their views. But if the gist of your view can be summed up as "FFUUUUUU", and you're expecting serious feedback, well...there's going to be problems.

Quote:
I think you dislike the reviewer too, but some dislike is necessary to have an opinion. Some people only use first impressions as a judgmental basis. I find no problem with that, or with people criticizing him. However, some of the comments are written in even greater anger than the original post.
I can't dislike someone I don't know. I can dislike the words they wrote, but it's like this: I disagree with his view, I understand it, but I dislike his desire to use emotion instead of objectivity. I do agree some of the comments in response make his comments look nice in comparison. Just goes to show that the emotions aren't just from critics.

Quote:
Yeah, the damage was definitely dealt with Mami's death. But many people kept watching, intrigued by where the show would go from there. Not everyone can be pleased, and yet I understand why some people chose to stop watching. Their opinion of the show is just as valid as my own.
Correct. We all have opinions, and a difference of opinion can be a good thing. If we all agreed, we'd never find things to talk about.

Quote:
I think the inconsistencies of Madoka Magica are nowhere near enough to affect how much I enjoy it. Honestly, I don't even think of those when I watch. It is after the episode that the Internet reveals them to me.

Yet I cannot speak for someone else. This reviewer may think in only one, narrow-minded way, but it's an interesting way, one different from most others. I think your criticism of him is fair, and I might be giving his opinion far too much credit. Still, I want to be open to other ideas.
I'm open to ideas, and I read through the entire post and the user comments just to see what responses he got. I still believe that his review is too much emotion and not enough editorial and because of that it shapes a negative opinion in my mind about him. On the other hand, if future posts from him show a calmer, more reflective view, even if he still dislikes the path the show has taken, I would find more respect and interest in continuing to read his thoughts.


@MaiNoKen:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Churchill
“We are masters of the unsaid words, but slaves of those we let slip out”
__________________
Solace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-08, 23:49   Link #1617
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Kyoko wants to kill a person, and displays extreme and open contempt and cruelty towards that person, for two episodes.

Then over the next three episodes, she actively tries to save the life of that very same person, and shows extreme compassion and affection for that person.

I mean... is it really that hard for people to see how this is a big issue for some viewers? How it's not exactly easy to swallow character development? I've seen love turn quickly to hate (i.e. spurned love will often do this), but I've very rarely seen hate turn quickly to love.

Nobody else here finds this odd in the least? I mean, really?

Do you honestly disagree with the reviewer on this point, Deconstructor?
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-03-09 at 00:06.
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-09, 00:09   Link #1618
Archon_Wing
Hater
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Being totally ebillll
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Archon_Wing
Yep. I was like "whoa @ this massive sudden change of character" Even though the things Kyoko learned was completely severe, the cynical may even view this as character derailment contrived to create a tragic event and leading them helpless for the night with the uber witch.

Aka, bullshit.
__________________
You just try again... through the darkness.You just go away... the future is waiting for us!
Avatar and Sig courtesy of TheEroKing
Guild Wars 2 SN: ArchonWing.9480 (Stormbluff Isle)
MyAnimeList || Reviews
Archon_Wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-09, 00:21   Link #1619
Deconstructor
Crossdressing Menmatic
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Where you live... the question is, do you see me?
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Folks...

Kyoko wants to kill a person, and displays extreme and open contempt and cruelty towards that person, for two episodes.

Then over the next three episodes, she actively tries to save the life of that very same person, and shows extreme compassion and affection for that person.

I mean... is it really that hard for people to see how this is a big issue for some viewers? How it's not exactly easy to swallow character development?

Nobody else here finds this odd in the least? I mean, really?

Do you honestly disagree with the reviewer on this point, Deconstructor?
Yes, I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Kyoko's change is far less sudden, but perhaps still poorly conceived. You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next. The very reason Kyoko and Sayaka were fighting was because Kyoko hated Sayaka's idealism. Suddenly, it is revealed that Kyoko actually loves those heroic stories, despite the tragic past exposition that was supposed to have turned Kyoko completely cynical. Even if Kyoko was hiding her adoration of Sayaka's ideals, I think the reviewer could have used more buildup and hints.
I disagree with him. But I definitely understand the criticism and find it reasonable.

My stance is that Kyoko has forgotten how to interact socially like a normal human being. She did not have any friends for a long, long time. So it is natural for Kyoko to assault Sayaka and talk about Grief Seeds - that is all Kyoko has been doing for most of her life. Kyoko gave Sayaka the chance to escape, and let the witch's familiar feed on the innocent. It was Sayaka who decided to stand up and fight. At that point, Kyoko tried to communicate with Sayaka by force - either stay out of her way or die by her spear.

After the Soul Gem realization, Kyoko realized it was Puella Magi versus Kyubey. Kyoko still held onto her cynicism, but tried giving a speech to Sayaka instead of using brute force. This is adequate development for me; it was clear Kyoko was trying to be friends with Sayaka. Then, she saves Sayaka from the witch. I would call that act inconsistent, but it is reasonable given Kyoko's progression toward friendship. Kyoko saves Sayaka once again, this time from Homura. Then, she watches in terror as Sayaka turns into a witch. Finally, Kyoko befriends Madoka and goes to save Sayaka. And she dies to save Sayaka.

Looking back at that timeline, there is a nice linear path of events. At each step, I see Kyoko's ice heart slowly melting. Even at the beginning, I don't think Kyoko was actively interested in killing Sayaka... Sayaka was just in the way. Battling was all Kyoko knew how to do, and the way she used to talk to people.
Deconstructor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-09, 00:21   Link #1620
Slick_rick
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kyoko wants to kill a person, and displays extreme and open contempt and cruelty towards that person, for two episodes.

Then over the next three episodes, she actively tries to save the life of that very same person, and shows extreme compassion and affection for that person.

I mean... is it really that hard for people to see how this is a big issue for some viewers? How it's not exactly easy to swallow character development? I've seen love turn quickly to hate (i.e. spurned love will often do this), but I've very rarely seen hate turn quickly to love.

Nobody else here finds this odd in the least? I mean, really?

Do you honestly disagree with the reviewer on this point, Deconstructor?
Personally I found little wrong with it myself. Kyoko seemed to hate Sayaka mostly because she felt Sayaka was naive and unsuited to be a Magical girl but after they all learned about the fact they were basically Zombies none of that really mattered anymore. She realized that Sayaka was like her old self which is probably why she disliked her so much at the start. After that she reconsidered her ways and tried to be friends with Sayaka and make amends. It wasn't that drastic of a change imho since it never seemed to me that Kyoko truly hated Sayaka on a personal level.
__________________
Slick_rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
despair, hope, madoka magica, magical girl, urobuchi gen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.