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Old 2011-03-10, 04:05   Link #101
Akiyoshi
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It'd be nicer to see her have success against credible opponents (not mooks) a bit more. It just doesn't seem to match what she's supposed to be on paper.
Same with Unison mode, specially Agito's. After almost half a season of lampshading her future alliance with Signum we get to see their flashy and cool unison togheter and they make testament of their amazing power by defeating ....an army of mooks, mecha mooks. Somewhat cool but we never get to see how powerfull their unison really is, the only next feat we see them doing is slicing Cypha's arm off a month before Signum got her ass handed to her by the evil swordswoman(and subsequently Agito herself too). Now Unison got rendered meaningless by the Eclipse and Zero Effect so chances to see that actually working in the future are close to zero.

I don't know if these movies will start a new continuity or not, if that's the case i hope things will get better for the Yagami family. Not much can be expected from them on the main continuity now xDU.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:22   Link #102
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It'd be nicer to see her have success against credible opponents (not mooks) a bit more. It just doesn't seem to match what she's supposed to be on paper.
Agreed. How many actual battles has Hayate even won? Hell, how many has she even fought? She did one 'everyone fire together' shot, and fired at drones twice. And one spellcast in Force, which -awesome as it was- didn't really do anything. Again not much of a fight.

Even though she's a glass cannon, they still could actually... y'know... give her a fight.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:28   Link #103
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Even though she's a glass cannon, they still could actually... y'know... give her a fight.
Sad part is that Hayate's potential got tons of opportunityes to be explored, not only as a Glass Nukebomb but also as an strategist, commander and warship captain. I was expecting a ship-to-ship combat between the Wolfram and the Huckship or a clever coordination from her part. But nope, she got shafted again, hope that future incarnations of the character manage to finally break her loosing streak.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:46   Link #104
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*Counts Hayate's Wins* Oh crap....

On one hand, I could say that leaders aren't supposed to be on the front lines and that Hayate is more of a DPS/Area of effect attacker than a direct combatant. On the other hand, that just isn't really that exciting. So what's left is to showcase her command abilities and wits, which is a bit hard at times. Not everyone can be smooth like Gendo Ikari.

We are told that she is one of the most powerful when it comes to raw magical power, so a win against a credible opponent here and there would help. Other unique abilities besides beam spam would help; considering she should have tons of abilities at her disposal. Maybe she's not subject to the limitations that other people have. But, I guess it's the nature of any show/movie/story to relegate "important fights" to main characters only.

For example, Vita quickly established how strong she was in the first episode of A's. And not in the cheap "haha, I have some random power that nullifies all your abilities!", but in the sense that shows that she is clearly superior to Nanoha at that point. Nanoha can put up a fight but ends up getting crushed.

Chrono as a competent leader is also pretty clear; since he was young he was always serious and efficient.

It's the kind of stuff that makes us disappointed about stuff like no Lindy vs Precia in movie 1st, etc. Show, don't tell! Especially when you say their powers are extremely awesome and out of this world.

On an unrelated note, that reminds me of many a anime where someone pulls out some super technique that you wonder why they just didn't use in the first place.

Don't hold back, folks! The franchise has long run on rule of cool to give excuses for characters to show off. It's only fair Hayate gets more; maybe in Movie 3rd Strikers or what not.
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Old 2011-03-10, 05:03   Link #105
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For example, Vita quickly established how strong she was in the first episode of A's. And not in the cheap "haha, I have some random power that nullifies all your abilities!", but in the sense that shows that she is clearly superior to Nanoha at that point. Nanoha can put up a fight but ends up getting crushed.
Except that she only crushed Nanoha purely because of her cartridge system. The moment Nanoha got one, she was more than a match for Vita despite having only recently recovered from a total linker core draining.

People like A's, so they tend to place the Wolkies on a higher pedestal, but what happened in A's was just as much the enemy having a random advantage to nullify the heroine's strengths as Force.
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Old 2011-03-10, 05:18   Link #106
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Except that she only crushed Nanoha purely because of her cartridge system. The moment Nanoha got one, she was more than a match for Vita despite having only recently recovered from a total linker core draining.

People like A's, so they tend to place the Wolkies on a higher pedestal, but what happened in A's was just as much the enemy having a random advantage to nullify the heroine's strengths as Force.
I do think it's a bit more credible. Surely, it makes sense that the user with stronger weaponry is going to have an advantage. And while Nanoha's own upgrade made it more of a fight, I was always thinking that the Wolkies weren't really fighting to take them down as much as "get the hell out my way, I have more important business to do." Well, at first they were aiming for those linker cores though... And if anything, they had experience on their side; it wasn't just because they were toting around bigger sticks.

Though I guess it is kinda odd how fast Nanoha recovered from being drained. I think it is forgivable for a 13 episode series.

Still, it is much less arbitrary of an advantage as say "I have this field that magically nullifies all of your current skills-- now you must completely change your strategy and use different skills because we are bored!" It wasn't like Vita could just and tank all of Nanoha's attacks in their 1st battle. And even after the upgrades, they were basically using stronger versions of the attacks they already had.

I didn't really get very much into Force, so I'm not really sure how it goes.
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Old 2011-03-10, 08:04   Link #107
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Considering how they went from 'complete crumpin' to 'equal battles' the moment the other side had cartridges too, it was definitely a bigger stick issue. Experience is never a factor in Nanoha anyway (nine year olds fighting veterans of wars that lasted hundreds of year on equal ground? Even holding back stops being an excuse there).

And I don't quite get how anti-magic relates to 'being bored.' If anything, powerups are the lazyman's method, since you can just have the same thing with "MORE POWER!" and call it a day.

Is it the most creative of solutions? No, it certainly lacks finese. But it's hardly worse than going DBZ on Nanoha.
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Old 2011-03-10, 10:21   Link #108
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It's not unlikely that someone has a bigger stick; I don't find it random at all since nobody holds on a monopoly on magic.

But an anti-magic field? That to me is just a generic counter-all.

"Hey, can't we use this attack"
"It doesn't work, there's an anti-magic field!"
"Or how about"
"No, no, no, anti-magic field"

It makes sense that someone could come up with more firepower. It makes less sense for someone to suddenly counter everything available unless they are somehow ages more advanced then they are.

Personally, I just don't like it because it basically obsoletes everyone's current arsenal; would it mean that every enemy after this is going to do it?

Then again I don't mind DBZ'ing the series, anyways lol.
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Old 2011-03-10, 11:29   Link #109
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They have to do an arms race regardless of power leveling they might also do since they are older. If they don't then is just SSX type plot line...

huh so much for my argument.
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Old 2011-03-10, 11:31   Link #110
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But it doesn't counter everything, it only counters magic. It's like calling a gas mask a generic counter-all just for countering gas.

One of my major gripes is that this anti-magic stuff was a prime opening to let the numbers shine, but instead they chose to go with the old cast. Granted, we get more Numbers with Vivid, but it would have been nice to see their unique skills actually being an advantage.

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They have to do an arms race regardless of power leveling they might also do since they are older. If they don't then is just SSX type plot line...

huh so much for my argument.
They should stop wasting time with movies of the already animated series and just make one out of SSX. Darned thing is still one of my favorite stories in the franchise, and it's just a sound stage.
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Old 2011-03-10, 11:52   Link #111
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Numbers have trouble versus Huckbien because they're weak. Yes, their attacks are nonmagic to the point where the Hucks might not be able to block them, but the Hucks are still stronger and better protected against any attack that the Numbers can dish out.
Dieci and her cannon might be able to hurt them, but I don't have high hopes for any of the other Numbers to be able to do much against the Hucks.
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Old 2011-03-10, 12:26   Link #112
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Except that she only crushed Nanoha purely because of her cartridge system. The moment Nanoha got one, she was more than a match for Vita despite having only recently recovered from a total linker core draining.

People like A's, so they tend to place the Wolkies on a higher pedestal, but what happened in A's was just as much the enemy having a random advantage to nullify the heroine's strengths as Force.
So much wrong here xD.

First of all, while it's true the cartridge system is an advantage is not the primary reason of the Wolkenritter's superiority in combat, Nanoha is able to put up a fight until the moment she provokes Vita to go berserk, also the Wolkies have very powerfull techniques they never used against the heroes(due probably because of their promise of not killing), Nanoha have the advantage to be able to go happy trigger to her opponents thanks to her non-lethal blasts of doom so she can go all out with Vita. Fate didn't have much luck against Signum despite actually having the Cartridge system(she even performs a SECOND upgrade by using sonic form just to catch up to the Blazing General). A

Also, despite being 9 year old Nanoha is depicted as a kid genius and a very darn good strategist, putting her to fight a hot-headed berserker kid like Vita eventually will lead to Nanoha learning how to handle the bull(Fate and Arf nearly manage to do it before the upgrade).

By the way, claiming the Wolkenritter have "a random advantage to nullify the heroine's strengths as Force" is even more incorrect, they don't nullify the heroes's strenght, they take it and endure it by virtue of being stronger and able to withstand said strenght. FORCE just go a silly route by nullyfing magic, effectively ignoring the heroes's strenght instead of fighting their way agionst it. Karen/Curren is an exception because she fight and defeats two AEC armed opponents. Still things get blurry in FORCe because we never would get to see the heroes fighting at their fullest again, we can only imagine how well they will fight the Huckebein without that pesky Anti-Magic thing.
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Old 2011-03-10, 13:45   Link #113
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Numbers have trouble versus Huckbien because they're weak. Yes, their attacks are nonmagic to the point where the Hucks might not be able to block them, but the Hucks are still stronger and better protected against any attack that the Numbers can dish out.
Dieci and her cannon might be able to hurt them, but I don't have high hopes for any of the other Numbers to be able to do much against the Hucks.
Well, rather the two really powerful ones are still in prison.

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But it doesn't counter everything, it only counters magic. It's like calling a gas mask a generic counter-all just for countering gas.
In a world where the primary weapon of war is gas...

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Except that she only crushed Nanoha purely because of her cartridge system. The moment Nanoha got one, she was more than a match for Vita despite having only recently recovered from a total linker core draining.

People like A's, so they tend to place the Wolkies on a higher pedestal, but what happened in A's was just as much the enemy having a random advantage to nullify the heroine's strengths as Force.
Well, there's also that whole post-A's manga where Nanoha and Fate explicitly say the Wolkies were going easy on them. Also, while the result is the same there's a difference in feeling between having the opponent negate all the hero's powers and make them useless and just being more powerful.
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Old 2011-03-10, 13:52   Link #114
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Well, rather the two really powerful ones are still in
They still have Cinque, she only needs to fight them in closed space where they can't attack her from the sky, Cinque's IS(no pun intended xDU) "Rumble Detonator is a pretty broken ability but it depends on how Tsuzuki wants to use that if it's potential can be exploited. The same for Otto's "Ray Storm" and Sein's "Deep Diver", those a pretty darn threatening powers.
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:17   Link #115
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So much wrong here xD.

First of all, while it's true the cartridge system is an advantage is not the primary reason of the Wolkenritter's superiority in combat, Nanoha is able to put up a fight until the moment she provokes Vita to go berserk, also the Wolkies have very powerfull techniques they never used against the heroes(due probably because of their promise of not killing), Nanoha have the advantage to be able to go happy trigger to her opponents thanks to her non-lethal blasts of doom so she can go all out with Vita. Fate didn't have much luck against Signum despite actually having the Cartridge system(she even performs a SECOND upgrade by using sonic form just to catch up to the Blazing General). A

Also, despite being 9 year old Nanoha is depicted as a kid genius and a very darn good strategist, putting her to fight a hot-headed berserker kid like Vita eventually will lead to Nanoha learning how to handle the bull(Fate and Arf nearly manage to do it before the upgrade).

By the way, claiming the Wolkenritter have "a random advantage to nullify the heroine's strengths as Force" is even more incorrect, they don't nullify the heroes's strenght, they take it and endure it by virtue of being stronger and able to withstand said strenght. FORCE just go a silly route by nullyfing magic, effectively ignoring the heroes's strenght instead of fighting their way agionst it. Karen/Curren is an exception because she fight and defeats two AEC armed opponents. Still things get blurry in FORCe because we never would get to see the heroes fighting at their fullest again, we can only imagine how well they will fight the Huckebein without that pesky Anti-Magic thing.
They nullified the heroine's offensive and defensive capabilities, tearing through defenses or even outright standing still on the face of them. Sugarcoat is all you like, but even Signum's attacks against Cypha were more effective than any of Nanoha or Fate's attacks against the Wolkies pre-upgrade.

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In a world where the primary weapon of war is gas...
The analogy still stands.

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Well, there's also that whole post-A's manga where Nanoha and Fate explicitly say the Wolkies were going easy on them. Also, while the result is the same there's a difference in feeling between having the opponent negate all the hero's powers and make them useless and just being more powerful.
There is that, you are right, and that is mostly a matter of preference. As someone who practically grew up with dragonball Z, I much more prefer variety over "The next even more powerful enemy arrives!" It quickly leads to stagnation, in my experience. Anti-magic may not be the most subtle of ways, but it did give some variation by somewhat altering how the characters fight (cause lets face it, apart from Erio nobody really changed the way they fight).

Frankly, I would have much preferred the old guard being dropped alltogether and have Force concentrating on the new generation they nurtured in StrikerS. But ah well, you've got to keep the fanbase happy. The last movie is certainly proof how well that pays.
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:30   Link #116
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Requiring heroes to get clever and try new things is good, but in my opinion a literal arms race where heroes are dependent on R & D to give them countermeasures to the enemy's new technology or strategy or whatever isn't any better than the metaphorical ones where people spontaneously develop new powers just because.

I felt like StrikerS tried to do it the right way at the start, where AMF was something that took more work to deal with but they could still approach using their existing toolkit, but in the end AMF ended up being too meaningless against the main characters and was mostly just an excuse for them to vastly outperform the rest of the military against Scaglietti's forces.

I mean, the forgotten ideal is that the characters using the same powers plot after plot isn't boring because the actual plots and characters are interesting...
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:58   Link #117
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Requiring heroes to get clever and try new things is good, but in my opinion a literal arms race where heroes are dependent on R & D to give them countermeasures to the enemy's new technology or strategy or whatever isn't any better than the metaphorical ones where people spontaneously develop new powers just because.
Oh don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree. It's not any better at all. All I'm arguing is that it isn't inherently worse either.
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Old 2011-03-10, 15:07   Link #118
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They nullified the heroine's offensive and defensive capabilities, tearing through defenses or even outright standing still on the face of them. Sugarcoat is all you like, but even Signum's attacks against Cypha were more effective than any of Nanoha or Fate's attacks against the Wolkies pre-upgrade.
Yeah, Signum totally nullifies that cut she received from Bardiche xDU. There's a small difference between withstanding and right out cancel but is still a notable small difference. Again it's useless to repeat the same discussion we already have with the "Haxbein" thing xDU. And Signum's effectiveness against Cypha is also testament of how different the two situations are, Signum's Panzegeist was strong enough to effortlessly withstand Fate's Photon lancer, she openly receives the attacks withstandig it's strenght and effects. Cypha nullifies Signum/Agito's multi fireball spell, she didn't withstand it's power she simply dispells it like if never existed. Signum's panzergeist can resist Photon Lancer but i really doubt it can withstand Nanoha's pre-cartridge Divine Buster just like that(even Vita, who is even tougher than Signum, dodges the attack). Cypha's anti-magic on the other hand can nullify arguably anything magical linked without worrying about things lis toughness, endurance or power level.

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Frankly, I would have much preferred the old guard being dropped alltogether and have Force concentrating on the new generation they nurtured in StrikerS. But ah well, you've got to keep the fanbase happy. The last movie is certainly proof how well that pays.
Well, yeah. Tsuzuki brings the old cast back so the fans can watch Nanoha back on action, he also takes the good opportunity to get rid of unpopular characters apparently xDU.

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I mean, the forgotten ideal is that the characters using the same powers plot after plot isn't boring because the actual plots and characters are interesting...
This.

There wasn't anything bad with the way their powers are developing, but probably is Tsuzuki himself the one that got bored and decide to change things xDU.
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Old 2011-03-10, 15:34   Link #119
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Yeah, Signum totally nullifies that cut she received from Bardiche xDU. There's a small difference between withstanding and right out cancel but is still a notable small difference. Again it's useless to repeat the same discussion we already have with the "Haxbein" thing xDU. And Signum's effectiveness against Cypha is also testament of how different the two situations are, Signum's Panzegeist was strong enough to effortlessly withstand Fate's Photon lancer, she openly receives the attacks withstandig it's strenght and effects. Cypha nullifies Signum/Agito's multi fireball spell, she didn't withstand it's power she simply dispells it like if never existed. Signum's panzergeist can resist Photon Lancer but i really doubt it can withstand Nanoha's pre-cartridge Divine Buster just like that(even Vita, who is even tougher than Signum, dodges the attack). Cypha's anti-magic on the other hand can nullify arguably anything magical linked without worrying about things lis toughness, endurance or power level.
It's funny how you glorify a trivial bruise, but outright deny a chopped off arm.

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Well, yeah. Tsuzuki brings the old cast back so the fans can watch Nanoha back on action, he also takes the good opportunity to get rid of unpopular characters apparently xDU.
A pity, really. So much potential, so many untold stories wasted.

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This.

There wasn't anything bad with the way their powers are developing, but probably is Tsuzuki himself the one that got bored and decide to change things xDU.
And change is the bad guy?
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Old 2011-03-10, 15:47   Link #120
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And change is the bad guy?
If it came as unecessary taking away all the good stuff then yes, it is the bad guy.

"Don't repair it if isn't broken"
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