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Old 2011-03-10, 03:57   Link #1041
Akiyoshi
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...and then came FORCE and they suddenly get turned into weaksauce xDU.

They're now trying various attempts at scaling their technology in order to confront the Huckebein, drafting away from spells and magic in general(Hayate, the only mage powerfull enough to still be able to use real magic against them got taken down by Curren/Karen), normally it will be require a special sesion training and a good dose of hot blood to make up for the difference in power but they decided to realy almost completely on technology. Thus, altering heavily the series's previous concept. Yeah, there was technology in Nanoha since the beginning, but it always had a healthy balance between willpower and techy upgrades, now it all depends entirely on tech.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:13   Link #1042
Keroko
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Nitpick:

Not all mecha with willpower-derived performance are Supers though. The Lambda Driver in FMP is a most blatant example, yet no labels the Arbalest or the Laevatein as "Super". And Dai-Guard is a mecha as down-to-earth as it gets (duct tape man, duct tape), and yet it's considered a "Super Robot" despite the fact that it'll logically lost to just about a whole gamut of reals in a technology and power contest. It all comes down to the treatment of the mecha in-universe really, though even that tend to blur the line between the two.
Not to mention almost every Gundam I've watched used either some form of technology that relied on the users willpower, or could only be piloted by some super special awesome gene-spliced pilot.

My personal view of real and super always was that any show that used mecha in a somewhat realistic setting was real robot, whereas those shows who's combat strategy could be summed up as "Fire the Giant Beam Cannon ripping through fifteen enemies in one shot!" were super robot.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:23   Link #1043
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That's what makes this confusing, sometimes Team Nanoha is able to obliterate an army with powerfull and shouted attacks and other times they have troubles dealing with a few elite mooks, or end stuck into evenly one-on-one matches.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:26   Link #1044
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Their combat tactics can still be summarized as "fire the pink laser!", which makes it super robot in my book.
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Old 2011-03-10, 04:30   Link #1045
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Their combat tactics can still be summarized as "fire the pink laser!", which makes it super robot in my book.
Yup, except in the past it was, "gather all your might and fire the pink laser", and now is "fire the laser before the battery runs out". But ok, with the news of RH actually received the 5th Gen upgrade there's still a chance to see a good old pink beam of destruction with a screaming Nanoha xD.
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Old 2011-03-10, 05:37   Link #1046
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What actually differentiates between Super and Real robot anyway?

Even among so-called "real" robot series, the heroes always seems to be the one with absurdly superior tech; the Celestial Beings' (for a given value of 'hero') ultra high-tech mechs were way more powerful than the mooks and when the mooks got upgrades so did the CB's, and Sousuke has the Lambda Driver equipped Arbalest and Laevateinn that ordinary mechs couldn't hope to match. And that's what the Aces are basically about; demigods that can trample mooks and redshirts with relative impunity.

So what about other factors? The sliding scale of idealism (super robot) and cynicism (real robot)? Because if that's the case then Nanoha definitely falls into Super, especially since most of their opponents got befriended instead of killed. But wait, even some "real" robot series falls into the idealistic category, and that one actually has the main mechs only a bit better than the standard issues (Macross)!

Hot blooded-ness? While the dialogues may indicate that the heroes also relies on skill and tactics instead of just willpower, the actual presentation shows that the series mostly favors the latter (sometimes I even wonder whether they actually have tactics beyond "Scream!!!" and "More DAKKA!!!"). So maybe that's the defining indicator: Hot-bloodedness.

Meh, TBH the series came to me more as an odd combo between Shoujo (outside combat) and Shounen (during combat) anyway...
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Old 2011-03-10, 07:56   Link #1047
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Yup, except in the past it was, "gather all your might and fire the pink laser", and now is "fire the laser before the battery runs out". But ok, with the news of RH actually received the 5th Gen upgrade there's still a chance to see a good old pink beam of destruction with a screaming Nanoha xD.
The difference between 'batteries' and 'cartridges' is minor at best.
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Old 2011-03-10, 08:12   Link #1048
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The actual latest Force chapter was rather... anti-climatic, considering the way the spoiler text was written.

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-03-10, 09:07   Link #1049
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And the Hucks are all just chilling in the background, letting it that happen. When you're done, guys, take your time.
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Old 2011-03-10, 12:06   Link #1050
Akiyoshi
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The difference between 'batteries' and 'cartridges' is minor at best.
Probably, except(again) for the fact that Cartridges function only as a boost while batteries are the primery source of power, if the battery runs out you're screwed. Nanoha and Co. can still cast powerfull magic even without caretridges or being powerfull melee fighters in the case of Fate and the Knights.

The AEC made them completely dependant on said technology(except in the cases where the mage posses a 5th Gen device ...arguably). Again i'm not making this up, Vita and Fate have a small monologue at the beginning of the assault to the Huckship pointing that the AEC equipements are, in fact, unrealiable weapons that the situation forced them to use.

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And the Hucks are all just chilling in the background, letting it that happen. When you're done, guys, take your time.
They're waiting for the moment when the heroes finally secure Tohma to simply appear, curbstomp their butts again and take Tohma in five minutes. The classic "thanks for doing all the work for us, fools" villain maneuver xD.

It's a pity not seeing Raising Heart doing some awesome stuff -_-. But look at the bright side ....IT'S FINALLY OVER! They're still on Namek but at least this fight is finally over ...now it's time for some developement xD.
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:18   Link #1051
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That seems to be a problem all-around here, really: if you're not directly on-panel, you might as well not exist.
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:22   Link #1052
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Probably, except(again) for the fact that Cartridges function only as a boost while batteries are the primery source of power, if the battery runs out you're screwed. Nanoha and Co. can still cast powerfull magic even without caretridges or being powerfull melee fighters in the case of Fate and the Knights.

The AEC made them completely dependant on said technology(except in the cases where the mage posses a 5th Gen device ...arguably). Again i'm not making this up, Vita and Fate have a small monologue at the beginning of the assault to the Huckship pointing that the AEC equipements are, in fact, unrealiable weapons that the situation forced them to use.
Running out of cartridges would still reducing them to the level where anyone whom they would need the cartridges for will crumple them.

But ammunition won't be a concern for long. Even in A's it wasn't that much of a concern, by StrikerS the cast had a seemingly infinite flow of cartridges to tap from. Same thing will happen with the AEC. It'll be a tension raiser for another battle (maybe not even that), and then it will never be mentioned again.
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:54   Link #1053
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Running out of cartridges would still reducing them to the level where anyone whom they would need the cartridges for will crumple them.
And curiously the amount of cartridges Signum use in her battle agains Blaster-1 Nanoha is surprisingly low xD. Granted, Laevateinn has only space for 3 cartridges, pretty cheap compared with Nanoha and Fate's 6 barrel packs.

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But ammunition won't be a concern for long. Even in A's it wasn't that much of a concern, by StrikerS the cast had a seemingly infinite flow of cartridges to tap from. Same thing will happen with the AEC. It'll be a tension raiser for another battle (maybe not even that), and then it will never be mentioned again.
That will be after they get time to improve the AEC technology because right know the batterie sucks, War Hammer got nearly unoperational after using Plasma Pile just a couple of times, the Same for Nanoha's Strike Cannon(until it got connected to the Fortress's generator).

Suddenly i imagined Section Six testing their AEC by using them plugged to really long cables on a city/base specifically designed to have various of those cables hidden in the buildings, if the cable gets cut the AEC enters battery mode xD.
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Old 2011-03-10, 14:59   Link #1054
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*shrug* Cartridges where a whooptiedoo in the first half of A's, and spammed in the second half. No upgrades, no explanations. Unless Tsuzuki is actually going to make this a point (which I doubt) I think it'll be swept under the carpet just the same.
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Old 2011-03-10, 17:50   Link #1055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
The actual latest Force chapter was rather... anti-climatic, considering the way the spoiler text was written.

Spoiler:
Dammit, Thoma... do something already! MAN UP!

Cripes, this means I really have a lot of work in MD to make him more interesting and awesome.
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Old 2011-03-10, 18:28   Link #1056
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Kinda hard for him to man up when he's not in control of any of his faculties.
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Old 2011-03-10, 19:16   Link #1057
Akiyoshi
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Yup, Tohma will probably get time to man up when he finally have the chance to actually decide what to do.
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Old 2011-03-10, 20:19   Link #1058
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I hope so. This is supposed to be his story. Otherwise, it'll be like seeing the Gundam Seed Destiny character fiasco where the old protagonists hijacked the show.

If Tsuzuki wants to keep any writing credibility, he'll borrow a page from Zeta Gundam's book. Keep old protagonists in important support roles but clearly show that Thoma is the star.
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Old 2011-03-10, 20:49   Link #1059
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I've said this before, but Thoma has firmly maintained his main character status because the story still revolves around him. Everything the other characters are doing right now are directly tied to him.

When Kira took over, Shinn was relegated to being some fodder villain while the story revolved around Kira trying to stop Gilbert.

If after being saved Thoma is left on the ship or sent back to Mid Childa while Nanoha and co continue to persue the Huckebein, then we'll have a problem.
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Old 2011-03-11, 00:08   Link #1060
Akiyoshi
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I was about to point Veyron and Tohma's rivalry but that cease to be a point since Tohma "forgivews" Veyron before his departure to solitude xDU. Hope that tohma manage to be a real main character instead of a living plot device(right now, he's almost the same as Vivio in StrikerS) xDU.
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