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Old 2011-03-10, 19:22   Link #181
Hagoshod
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
I somehow doubt that Homura wanted Sayaka to become a Puella Magi. She seemed sorry when she killed her in that other timeline.
She already tried outright telling Sayaka about the whole Soul Gem fiasco, and Sayaka just thought she was crazy. The only other option Homura has is to allow Sayaka become a Witch so Madoka witnesses the truth for herself.

If that wasn't the point, why doesn't she just restrain herself from whatever is causing Sayaka to become a Magical Girl in the first place? The first two timelines show Sayaka was never even supposed to be one.
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Old 2011-03-10, 19:35   Link #182
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Originally Posted by Hagoshod View Post
She already tried outright telling Sayaka about the whole Soul Gem fiasco, and Sayaka just thought she was crazy. The only other option Homura has is to allow Sayaka become a Witch so Madoka witnesses the truth for herself.

If that wasn't the point, why doesn't she just restrain herself from whatever is causing Sayaka to become a Magical Girl in the first place? The first two timelines show Sayaka was never even supposed to be one.
She told all of them, and none of them apparently believed her until they saw the truth for themselves.

I don't think Homura wants Sayaka to be a Puella Magi. When she contracted, she seemed to regret her lapse, and she was sorry for killing Sayaka in that timeline.
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Old 2011-03-12, 17:21   Link #183
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I'm looking for a scene where Sayaka was actually nice or apologetic or kind to Homura. A scene where Sayaka wasn't hostile to Homura. Can someone find me one?
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Old 2011-03-12, 17:27   Link #184
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Kind and apologetic, no, but not hostile, yes. In episode 1, where she was still not as biased and told Madoka that it must've been fate for her to meet Homura who travelled through time. That's as far as that goes. lol
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Old 2011-03-12, 17:50   Link #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fandal View Post
I'm looking for a scene where Sayaka was actually nice or apologetic or kind to Homura. A scene where Sayaka wasn't hostile to Homura. Can someone find me one?
There's a brief scene with Sayaka in it in Timeline 1 of Episode 10. It's the one where Homura sits down after nervously introducing herself to the class. Sayaka is part of the group of girls crowding around Homura, and comments on Homura's long hair, and Sayaka seems friendly enough here.
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Old 2011-03-13, 05:19   Link #186
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Although that girl has a very similar design than Sayaka, it isn't her. Her voice actor is different, and when Madoka is about to take Homura to the nurse office, you can see Sayaka and Hitomi in the background.
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Old 2011-03-13, 09:22   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Although that girl has a very similar design than Sayaka, it isn't her. Her voice actor is different, and when Madoka is about to take Homura to the nurse office, you can see Sayaka and Hitomi in the background.
Just noticed that when I checked that scene a second time. Totally missed Sayaka and Hitomi in the background on initial viewing. The other blue-haired girl who looks almost identical to Sayaka did sound a bit off to me (for Sayaka), but I thought that maybe Sayaka's seiyu just had a cold or something while saying those lines, lol

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out to me.
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Old 2011-03-13, 10:22   Link #188
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Crosspost from another thread:

Sayaka lasted barely a week as an MG:

Day 1: Contracted, killed Kristen
Day 2: Fought Kyoko
Day 3: Kyoko, round 2, Soul Gem revelation
Day 4: Moped around at home, pep talk by Kyoko.
Day 5: Hitomi ultimatum. Breaks down and goes nuts on Elsa Maria, blows off Madoka
Day 6: Sees Hitomi with Kyosuke, takes out frustration on familiars, Soul Gem goes critical, shatters, Oktavia is born, Sayaka is dead.
Day 7: Oktavia killed by Kyoko's suicide attack.
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Old 2011-03-13, 10:28   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Crosspost from another thread:

Sayaka lasted barely a week as an MG:

Day 1: Contracted, killed Kristen
Day 2: Fought Kyoko
Day 3: Kyoko, round 2, Soul Gem revelation
Day 4: Moped around at home, pep talk by Kyoko.
Day 5: Hitomi ultimatum. Breaks down and goes nuts on Elsa Maria, blows off Madoka
Day 6: Sees Hitomi with Kyosuke, takes out frustration on familiars, Soul Gem goes critical, shatters, Oktavia is born, Sayaka is dead.
Day 7: Oktavia killed by Kyoko's suicide attack.
Yeah, this is why I was a bit disappointed in Sayaka. She seemed to have healthy emotional strength, and also be very well-adjusted, prior to becoming a magical girl. That makes her rapid descent a bit of a disappointment to me.
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Old 2011-03-13, 11:14   Link #190
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She seemed to have healthy emotional strength,
I remember she was always trying to help other people.
This is why she was the most unsuitable person for a magical girl as Kyoko mentioned.
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Old 2011-03-13, 12:26   Link #191
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Yeah, this is why I was a bit disappointed in Sayaka. She seemed to have healthy emotional strength, and also be very well-adjusted, prior to becoming a magical girl. That makes her rapid descent a bit of a disappointment to me.
The revelation that she was a "zombie" completely messed her up. This isn't something easy to take in, no matter how emotionally balanced you are. Kyoko just shrugged it off, but that's because she had already given up on living a ordinary life a long time ago. Sayaka, on the other hand, desperately longed for it. She clearly wasn't truly ready to risk her soul/life for her wish. She should have never made that contract (well, none of them should have).
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Old 2011-03-13, 15:57   Link #192
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, this is why I was a bit disappointed in Sayaka. She seemed to have healthy emotional strength, and also be very well-adjusted, prior to becoming a magical girl. That makes her rapid descent a bit of a disappointment to me.
I thought Sayaka was extremely judgmental even before her descent to madness. Se antagonized Homura and blamed her for Mami's death, and she made the first attack on Kyoko. She does make enemies, unlike Madoka who does actually care about everyone.
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Old 2011-03-13, 18:27   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I thought Sayaka was extremely judgmental even before her descent to madness.
I think that it's extremely judgmental to view Sayaka that way.


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She antagonized Homura and blamed her for Mami's death,
Homura's actions were understandably inexplicable to Sayaka in the early going of this anime. Homura did not help Sayaka's view of her by being so cold and cryptic about everything in Timeline 5. From Sayaka's perspective, Homura was unreasonably antagonizing Madoka and Mami.

I think that a lot of the harsher critics of Sayaka are not really trying to put themselves in Sayaka's shoes. If somebody started making bizarre ominous and seemingly out of nowhere warnings to your best friend, and if that same somebody tried to kill a seemingly innocent sentient life form, and if that same someone comes across as refusing the olive branch being offered to her by Mami, then why shouldn't you view Homura in a negative light?

Homura is giving Sayaka (at least the Timeline 5 version) every reason in the world to view her in a highly negative light.

Too many viewers of this anime are getting too caught up in what we viewers know to be the case, when we fail to keep in mind that the knowledge and choices of most (if not all) of the characters do not benefit from our 3rd person outside perspective.


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and she made the first attack on Kyoko.
In my view, it was Kyoko who made the first act of aggression. If you want to just have a cordial conversation with someone, you don't try to set it up the way that Kyoko set up her first meeting with Sayaka. Kyoko's approach understandably puts Sayaka on the defensive.

Also, Kyoko took actions that would endanger innocent human lives. Actions that Sayaka had perfectly legitimate moral disagreement with.


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She does make enemies,
Superman and Batman "make enemies" too, for good reason.


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...unlike Madoka who does actually care about everyone.
Does Madoka care about everyone? I've read people criticize her for so casually dismissing a Homura that was on the ground, consumed in tears, back in Episode 8.
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Old 2011-03-13, 19:21   Link #194
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Does Madoka care about everyone? I've read people criticize her for so casually dismissing a Homura that was on the ground, consumed in tears, back in Episode 8.
We just have to keep in mind no character in this series is perfect or totally selfless. They all have their flaws, they all have their selfish moments.

To name just one of Madoka's. In episodes 10's third timeline, Madoka tells Homura "save me, don't let me be tricked by QB", which implies that Homura was going to have to fight Walpurgis all on her own, and "Oh, and btw, won't you kill me too?", even though mercy killing Madoka was pointless if Homura was going to go back in time anyway.

At that moment, Madoka is extremely selfish, and yet, it's completely and absolutely understandable, given the situation, so I don't hold it against her.

I think the same counts for Sayaka, even if I don't like her character in particular.
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Old 2011-03-13, 19:29   Link #195
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We just have to keep in mind no character in this series is perfect or totally selfless. They all have their flaws, they all have their selfish moments.
That's fair, and I agree.
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Old 2011-03-13, 19:36   Link #196
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Hrm. Well, Sayaka has a rough personality, but I believe she has a good heart. Her biggest flaw is that she dives in to situations without thinking them through, but her personality is as stubborn as it is impulsive. In any other show of this genre she would probably be an incredibly popular character, but in a somewhat more realistic take such as Madoka it is a severe, and fatal, character flaw.

Her personality isn't a bad thing normally, but it makes her a terrible Magical Girl in a twisted system such as we see here. Her good intentions are mired by her inability to be honest with how she truly feels, to herself and others. She tries to bear more burden than she can endure, and during moments of doubt and weakness she crashes pretty hard.

That's also what makes her last words so sad imo. Sitting there, realizing what she had done, what she set herself up to be, letting it all out and just being honest for once....and realizing she was a complete fool. That scene showed so much wisdom and reflection from a character that often appeared rather shallow, judgmental, and naive. Had there been a way to stop or revert the transformation into a Witch, it could have been an incredible moment for character development. Instead we're left with an empty shell, lots of sadness, and a monster who is trapped in her own memories.
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Old 2011-03-13, 20:03   Link #197
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Hrm. Well, Sayaka has a rough personality, but I believe she has a good heart. Her biggest flaw is that she dives in to situations without thinking them through, but her personality is as stubborn as it is impulsive. In any other show of this genre she would probably be an incredibly popular character, but in a somewhat more realistic take such as Madoka it is a severe, and fatal, character flaw.

Her personality isn't a bad thing normally, but it makes her a terrible Magical Girl in a twisted system such as we see here. Her good intentions are mired by her inability to be honest with how she truly feels, to herself and others. She tries to bear more burden than she can endure, and during moments of doubt and weakness she crashes pretty hard.
This much is pretty fair, and I largely agree with it.

However, I don't think that her personality would come off as "rough" in the real world. In a world without magical girls and witches. In such a world, such serious conflicts with Homura and Kyoko would likely never arise.

I found Sayaka's affection for, and dedication to, Kamijo, quite touching and rather beautiful. Misplaced, probably, but still very touching. Aside from her outburst against Madoka in Episode 8 (which was brought on by a complete emotional breakdown), I have found Sayaka to be a consistently good and reliable friend. That's a trait that I value a lot in real life people, so I like seeing it in fictional characters as well.


Quote:
That's also what makes her last words so sad imo. Sitting there, realizing what she had done, what she set herself up to be, letting it all out and just being honest for once....and realizing she was a complete fool. That scene showed so much wisdom and reflection from a character that often appeared rather shallow, judgmental, and naive. Had there been a way to stop or revert the transformation into a Witch, it could have been an incredible moment for character development. Instead we're left with an empty shell, lots of sadness, and a monster who is trapped in her own memories.
Here I disagree with you, and with Sayaka herself actually.

I don't see any way Sayaka could have reasonably suspected that Kyubey was totally fooling her. The same applies for Homura, Kyoko, Madoka (in previous timelines), and Mami. I don't see any of them as naive, or shallow.

One thing I will not hold against any of these girls is their choice to be a magical girl. All of them were coldly manipulated by a machiavellian master manipulator named Kyubey.

That being said, Sayaka's final words are rather poignant and emotionally tinged. They do help to make for a very powerful and unforgettable scene. One that makes me care a lot about Sayaka, and feel anger towards Kyubey.
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Old 2011-03-13, 20:33   Link #198
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Here I disagree with you, and with Sayaka herself actually.

I don't see any way Sayaka could have reasonably suspected that Kyubey was totally fooling her. The same applies for Homura, Kyoko, Madoka (in previous timelines), and Mami. I don't see any of them as naive, or shallow.

One thing I will not hold against any of these girls is their choice to be a magical girl. All of them were coldly manipulated by a machiavellian master manipulator named Kyubey.

That being said, Sayaka's final words are rather poignant and emotionally tinged. They do help to make for a very powerful and unforgettable scene. One that makes me care a lot about Sayaka, and feel anger towards Kyubey.
I didn't really take that scene to be anything about QB directly. She just realized she made all the wrong choices for all the wrong reasons.
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Old 2011-03-13, 20:33   Link #199
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Well, by rough I mean she's very much a tomboy. She doesn't like to show her vulnerable side much. Having grown up around a number of tomboys, I've seen how difficult it is for them to walk that fine line between being "girlie" or not being seen as a girl at all. The character designer for Sayaka even mentions how she felt maybe Sayaka looked too much like a boy, so she added the angled haircut to give her some feminine appeal.

I do think, that in a world without Kyubey, all of the girls could have been good friends. One of the time lines even alludes to such an outcome. Sayaka may be difficult sometimes, but as you point out her loyalty in friendship is a rare thing to see. She's a White Knight persona in my eyes, the "prince" who tries to do the right thing, fight for justice, be loyal to friends, love deeply, and protect what she treasures. It's also why I agree with Homura, who speaks from experience and prior knowledge, when she says Sayaka isn't fit to be a Magical Girl. Thanks to Kyubey, good intentions lead you to hell.

Overall, I pretty much agree with what you're saying.
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Old 2011-03-13, 20:44   Link #200
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Well, by rough I mean she's very much a tomboy.
Good point. I had actually forgotten that after seeing so many Kyoko/Sayaka yuri pics that puts Sayaka in the feminine uke role to Kyoko's masculine seme


I agree with all of the rest of your post. Great points.
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