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Old 2011-03-12, 00:39   Link #81
naikou
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Originally Posted by Chron View Post
Then who is she?
What do you mean, who is she? She's Erika, a girl who fell off a boat and washed up on the shore of Rokkenjima.
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Old 2011-03-12, 01:01   Link #82
immblueversion
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
What do you mean, who is she? She's Erika, a girl who fell off a boat and washed up on the shore of Rokkenjima.
I figured they meant "there are 17 people alive," considering that she was most likely dead when she washed up on the shore. People in-universe who knew of her accident, which was almost completely forgotten in the wake of the Rokkenjima incident, speculated of her survival and participation in the island's events. Unless we count Shannon and Kanon as one person, of course...
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Old 2011-03-12, 01:05   Link #83
naikou
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In Ange's world (why the hell does everyone think Ange's world is so important, gah), Erika drowns. So there are 16 people on the island.

And I am getting confused at how this is an issue. ;_;

Edit:
Maybe listing everyone on the island will clear things up.
1. Krauss
2. Natsuhi
3. Jessica
4. Eva
5. Hideyoshi
6. George
7. Rudolf
8. Kyrie
9. Battler
10. Rosa
11. Maria
12. Nanjo
13. Genji
14. Gohda
15. Kumasawa
16. Shkanontrice
17. (if she survives) Erika

That's the mental picture everyone had at the end of EP6, right? I don't see where there is a riddle.

Last edited by naikou; 2011-03-12 at 02:09.
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Old 2011-03-12, 02:08   Link #84
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Quote:
(why the hell does everyone think Ange's world is so important, gah
Because it's the world of Rokkenjima Prime.
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Old 2011-03-12, 03:17   Link #85
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It's an issue, because she was able to say in red that she's a 18th human. You can't just say "oh, she was mistaken". Battler was mistaken about his mother too and wasn't able to say it.
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Old 2011-03-12, 03:31   Link #86
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Because it's the world of Rokkenjima Prime.
If you define "Prime" to be "the fragment that the latest iteration of Ange comes from," then sure. There's still no particular reason to think this one is higher order than the others. You could just as easily (and with somewhat more justification) say that the whole game including 1998 is another story trying to send a message to a higher-order reader Ange that we can't see. Or that a sorcerer created the fragment to give some closure to an abandoned lower-order piece, if you want to take a meta view.
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Old 2011-03-12, 03:35   Link #87
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It's an issue, because she was able to say in red that she's a 18th human. You can't just say "oh, she was mistaken". Battler was mistaken about his mother too and wasn't able to say it.
In the worlds of the 5th and 6th game, Erika IS an 18th human. Just like how in the second game, Beatrice can talk about corpses.

Dumbledore is gay. That's it. The red truth is the authority of the storywriter. That's all it is.

Quote:
If you define "Prime" to be "the fragment that the latest iteration of Ange comes from," then sure. There's still no particular reason to think this one is higher order than the others. You could just as easily (and with somewhat more justification) say that the whole game including 1998 is another story trying to send a message to a higher-order reader Ange that we can't see.
In fairness, there's also shit like how all the games are readable as documents to Ange, so at the very least her world stands above all of those worlds.
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Old 2011-03-12, 03:45   Link #88
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In fairness, there's also shit like how all the games are readable as documents to Ange, so at the very least her world stands above all of those worlds.
I thought the messages in the bottles and Featherine's stories were explanations which coincidentally happen in other kakera (since there are an infinite number of kakera, you could write just about anything that follows the rules, really, and it would correspond to some kakera).

Maybe not. Maybe kakera are layered like that, and it's just one level below us.
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Old 2011-03-12, 03:56   Link #89
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Well they can't be on equal levels, because of the One Truth red.
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Old 2011-03-12, 04:11   Link #90
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
In the worlds of the 5th and 6th game, Erika IS an 18th human. Just like how in the second game, Beatrice can talk about corpses.

Dumbledore is gay. That's it. The red truth is the authority of the storywriter. That's all it is.
I wasn't asking for your explanation, since it's not a theory thread. I was just pointing out how it's a problem for the reader to solve.
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Old 2011-03-12, 04:42   Link #91
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Oh, I couldn't tell from your syntax; I read as "problem" in the plothole sense.
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Old 2011-03-12, 19:40   Link #92
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Can't be bothered to argue with Chron, but I found someone else who seems to subscribe to his view. He seems to spend his time writing obscure mystery VNs.
Spoiler:


...Yeah, this is weird. Maybe we'll just need to await the release of Umineko no Naku Koro ni: Really Frickin' Solved This Time.
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Old 2011-03-12, 21:22   Link #93
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Can't be bothered to argue with Chron, but I found someone else who seems to subscribe to his view. He seems to spend his time writing obscure mystery VNs.
Spoiler:


...Yeah, this is weird. Maybe we'll just need to await the release of Umineko no Naku Koro ni: Really Frickin' Solved This Time.
You sure this isn't the Mangagamer version of Higurashi? Because that's what this seems like to me.
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Old 2011-03-13, 08:30   Link #94
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
You sure this isn't the Mangagamer version of Higurashi? Because that's what this seems like to me.
I think Leafsnail is pointing to Ryukishi with the "obscure mystery VN writer"... At least the background style is the same as Higurashi. This is either a promise for some more answers, or he is contradicting himself. Or EP7 was supposed to be the answer page.

Maybe Ryukishi is trolling us with EP8 ending, and the implied Umineko Rei turns out to be Umineko "Kai". I hope this Rei would be an addition to Tsubasa and bundled together with the extra TIPS in a DVD case, it's CD case looks out of place with the bigger editions. Well, an answer arc would be great, but it's not the most important thing to happen (and I haven't read EP8 yet). At least it would calm the fanbase down to some degree and not leave a bitter aftertaste lessening the total enjoyment of the series, and another focused Umineko episode is always nice to get in contrast to short stories in Tsubasa (which weren't bad at all, I might add).
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Old 2011-03-13, 09:18   Link #95
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Yeah, it is from Higurashi.

I dunno... would it be unreasonable to expect "Questions", "Core", "Answers"? Cores are usually in the middle.
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Old 2011-03-13, 13:18   Link #96
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Overall, loved the game. However, I never actually read the first parts (only snipits from the forums), but I loved the Chiru season. It's really an inspirational romance story for me, even with that odd ending.

However, I have questions, if someone may like to answer; knowing the truth as well:

1) First twilight of EP2; Shkanontrice really did just stab all 6 adults and stuff them with candy? Hard to imagine how that would plan out (unless I'm misinterpreting something here)

2) EP3 can be explained with Shkanontrice, so how Maria and Rosa really got murdered? Or was it accidental?

3) EP3 - Can it also be Eva?

4) EP5~6 - So, Erika is really just a corpse that may/may not be real or not. Prior to chiru, her unknown existence didn't even affect the story, or did it?
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Old 2011-03-13, 13:35   Link #97
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Hmm, maybe Umineko should be taken as a romance, with a theme revolving around mysteries, not as a mystery with romance? Or Chiru at least. Though I do get the feeling that mystery is the more important aspect. Well whatever the case is, the thing still needs a solution and not brush everything away by saying it was not a mystery to begin with.

To Ronove:
3) I interpreted that Eva was really the one to kill them as no falsehoods were told of their final moments, it was Eva-Beatrice after all. Her and Rosa's discussion got a bit overboard and Rosa got killed, and Maria was killed to silence her. But if it also means we should take what they say for real, the killer was posing as Beatrice as Maria. Maybe Eva could think of herself as Beatrice for finding the gold. And Rosa died after Maria, if it means anything. And actually... They weren't finally killed by Eva-Beatrice at all, it was Beatrice herself who gave them "a rest they wouldn't need to wake from". Were Shannon and Kanon confirmed as dead before this? I remember the declaration happening early, but it might have been during Nanjo's case.

But this should be taken to some other thread I suppose.
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Old 2011-03-13, 23:49   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
Overall, loved the game. However, I never actually read the first parts (only snipits from the forums), but I loved the Chiru season. It's really an inspirational romance story for me, even with that odd ending.

However, I have questions, if someone may like to answer; knowing the truth as well:

1) First twilight of EP2; Shkanontrice really did just stab all 6 adults and stuff them with candy? Hard to imagine how that would plan out (unless I'm misinterpreting something here)

2) EP3 can be explained with Shkanontrice, so how Maria and Rosa really got murdered? Or was it accidental?

3) EP3 - Can it also be Eva?

4) EP5~6 - So, Erika is really just a corpse that may/may not be real or not. Prior to chiru, her unknown existence didn't even affect the story, or did it?
Keep in mind that even Will's solutions only tell you the basic trick, and you're ... more or less free to fill in the holes with ... whatever works for you.

1.) One of those "fill in the blanks yourself" scenarios. There only thing making it an "impossible murder" was the lol-locked chapel door. Maybe it was Yasu. I myself think it was Rosa, actually. Maybe Kyrie started some shit like in EP7, but was killed in the middle of it, and Yasu+Rosa worked around it for the sake of the "fake murder mystery plan". /shrug

2.) Will's solution pretty explicitly says "Eva killed them". Rosa and Maria are pretty much the only people Eva ALMOST DEFINITELY killed in EP3.

3.) As I said - EP3 only really REQUIRES Eva to have killed Rosa + Maria to make sense, but it can just as well be Eva for the whole thing. This is one of many places where Will uses a Shkanon solution where it technically wasn't necessary - though in order to keep completely with Will's solution, while you can still blame the majority of EP3 on Eva, you have to work around Shkanon-trice shenanigans.

Long response short, "Yes, EP3 can just be Eva".

4.) I ... don't know about that one, conclusively. Erika's existence is a pretty cruel trick about the definition of a "person" versus "human" in this series, as the number of people, and the number of names people can have/use, has been of the red truth's most contentious areas, and different people have drawn different conclusions.

Prior to Chiru, she CAN'T have any effect on the story because she didn't even exist yet. During Chiru ... well, I certainly have my own theory, but your guess is as good as mine. I'm sure the answer is teased in EP6's cheese-slicing and coin-to-cup riddles during the family's dinner.
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Old 2011-03-14, 12:16   Link #99
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I think all of ep3 can be Eva except the first twilight and part of the ninth twilight (Will doesn't mention the last solution, but Battler mentions it in passing in episode 6: "The list of people provided didn't correspond with the list of people who existed" or something). I'd say "The obvious culprit" points to Eva, too.
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Old 2011-03-14, 13:11   Link #100
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Well, who knows, maybe we'll get an "Umineko Rei" which provides really detailed answers to the locked room riddles. I hope we do.
That's too little, too late. He's already demonstrated that if he had any answers in mind, he chose not to reveal them. Or, in the worse, had none at all.

If he releases an "answer pack," we'll (rightly) accuse him of coming up with answers after the fact, or grabbing the best answers from the internet, or whatever. Even if it's not true, that's the impression it would leave. It's probably for the best if he just leaves well enough alone, however much that'd piss off a few people. They are, I fear, a minority, and it's all about saving face.
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