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Old 2011-03-14, 14:01   Link #101
rogerpepitone
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I disagree. If he has good answers, that handle all the red / gold text in a consistent way, and that explain things that readers may not have even noticed, they'll be accepted even if they appear after Episode 8.

If he has lousy answers, that don't actually explain anything, readers wouldn't accept them, even if they appeared in Episode 5.
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Old 2011-03-14, 16:01   Link #102
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I disagree. If he has good answers, that handle all the red / gold text in a consistent way, and that explain things that readers may not have even noticed, they'll be accepted even if they appear after Episode 8.
I wouldn't, unless they were just so masterful I knew he had them in mind the whole time. That's a pretty high bar.
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Old 2011-03-14, 16:40   Link #103
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Are you referring to the solutions to the closed rooms? Because the EP7 hints from Wil pretty much gave them away. Not like they were particularly hard closed rooms in the first place.

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If he releases an "answer pack," we'll (rightly) accuse him of coming up with answers after the fact, or grabbing the best answers from the internet, or whatever.
Why? He could have done that at any point. He had 2 years in between EP4 and EP8.
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Old 2011-03-14, 17:08   Link #104
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I wouldn't, unless they were just so masterful I knew he had them in mind the whole time. That's a pretty high bar.
I don't really see why this is different to reading the solution to any other mystery novel. If it's stupid and doesn't fit, you'll be dissatisfied. If it's clever and does fit with what the author wrote, you probably will be satisfied.

Most of the stuff we do learn was foreshadowed quite a bit, although often thematically rather than directly (which kindof makes sense because of the whole author thing).
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Old 2011-03-14, 18:36   Link #105
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I don't really see why this is different to reading the solution to any other mystery novel. If it's stupid and doesn't fit, you'll be dissatisfied. If it's clever and does fit with what the author wrote, you probably will be satisfied.
If someone wrote a book that didn't have an answer, then three years later after tons of internet speculation released the answer to that book, hell no I would not be satisfied. He already had every advantage by writing an episodic mystery. I'm not giving him a pass on this.
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Old 2011-03-14, 18:56   Link #106
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If someone wrote a book that didn't have an answer, then three years later after tons of internet speculation released the answer to that book, hell no I would not be satisfied. He already had every advantage by writing an episodic mystery. I'm not giving him a pass on this.
Same with me.
The time of revelation in a mystery (and not just in a mystery) isn't something that you can put on a side note or a spin off, it's supposed to be an important part if not the most important part of the story.

Imagine the sixth sense if it didn't have an ending and if that was only explained later in a side episode. Way to ruin an awesome idea.

Besides many of the parts that were answered or that (I believe) can be deduced with a good certainty are (to me) disappointing to say the least.

I really expected more from Ryuukishi, and my expectations progressively lowered the more the end neared, even so, if my hopes were 10, and my expectations for EP8 became 7, what I actually got in the end was a 5.
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Old 2011-03-14, 19:12   Link #107
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I just don't get why you're willing to wait two years for answers, but three years ruins everything. :\
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Old 2011-03-14, 19:26   Link #108
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I think the problem people have is that if the answers are released on a side-episode, they won't seem as important as if they were present in the actual series. They'll seem like an afterthought rather than a plot point.
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Old 2011-03-14, 19:41   Link #109
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Hmm well releasing a guide to explain your fiction after it was released is pretty much admitting you failed to communicate your story and/or points.

However, since this is arguably the situation with Umineko, I'm not too sure it'd change much at this point. It might add insult to injury for some but many seems to wish for it. That doesn't make it any more likely that it happens tho.
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Old 2011-03-14, 19:51   Link #110
naikou
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Man, I dunno. I guess maybe I just don't think the answers to the locked rooms are all that important. Or maybe EP7 really explained them well enough for me?

...I liked Umineko's ending. ._.
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Old 2011-03-14, 20:11   Link #111
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Man, I dunno. I guess maybe I just don't think the answers to the locked rooms are all that important. Or maybe EP7 really explained them well enough for me?

...I liked Umineko's ending. ._.
To me, the importance came in that it was a big build up for no payoff. Easy or difficult, the moment the truth is revealed is the most satisfying in a novel.

I mean, if someone looks at the detective with the most daring expression and goes "WHAT DOES 2+2 EQUALS TO?" you'd still want to see the scene where that person stands astounded when the detective explains that the answer is four. I think my last post on the subject is somewhere around this topic, but I can't find it.
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Old 2011-03-14, 20:31   Link #112
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Man, I dunno. I guess maybe I just don't think the answers to the locked rooms are all that important. Or maybe EP7 really explained them well enough for me?

...I liked Umineko's ending. ._.
You are undersizing the problem if you think it's only a matter of locked rooms; and Will didn't really gave any explanation apart from not giving certain answers.

It's the same as if in Higurashi they told you: "here's the culprit" without showing the background story and without showing an in depth explanation of what made the culprit create the evil master plan. Even supposing you can figure it out by yourself, that's not the same thing as seeing it unfolding.

Or to make an example within umineko it would be the same as if they just told you yeah Kinzo was already dead without showing you the background that led to that situation. EP5 was pretty much satisfying from that point of view I expected the same for every mystery of this story but I didn't get not even half.


Then again EP8 wasn't really bad, it had pretty good scenes, but nothing that I hadn't seen already in previous episodes, just more characters, more battles,

In the end the only thing that I really enjoyed was Tohya's background and past because at least that part was something new. The mini games were enjoyable but not the kind of entertainment that I was expecting from Umineko. At least it's nice to see a closure of Ange's story arc, but the feeling of having wasted years reasoning about a truth that doesn't even exist is bitter.
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Old 2011-03-14, 20:45   Link #113
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Wasn't EP7 all about showing the culprit's motive in detail? All of the chapters of Yasu's story...?

I mean, I do think it's a bit of an odd motivation (I can't decide whether I love Battler, George, or Jessica more... therefore EVERYONE MUST DIE). But not totally unacceptable.
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Old 2011-03-14, 20:50   Link #114
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It is totally unacceptable at least for me and many others that I know of, and it isn't even certain, frankly I don't think that's what happened. But even if it was my judgement would only worsen.

Besides if you ask me EP7 only made clear stuff that were already hinted enough (not like I didn't appreciate them, I did but...) and avoided explaining those parts that were still obscure.
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Old 2011-03-14, 21:04   Link #115
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*shrug* To each their own, I suppose. I know that if I hadn't discussed theories on the internet, EP7 would have surprised me. As it was, I still liked seeing my theories come to life.
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Old 2011-03-14, 23:42   Link #116
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Well, when I say "consistent", I mean handle everything consistently (which scenes are fake, what's allowed to be used in red text). If he can provide a good one, I'll believe he planned it in advance. It's just too unlikely for such explanations to exist if the author isn't planning them from the beginning. (None of the explanations I've seen come close to this.)

For example, if he had left the explanation of the epitaph until after Episode 8, I'd still believe that was the planned explanation.

But even if he does provide such an explanation, it probably won't salvage Umineko as a stroy in my opinion.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:02   Link #117
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Really? I thought the epitaph was one of the things he planned really well. That's partly because of the way he described it in his interviews.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:37   Link #118
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Sorry if I wasn't clear; I agree that the explanation of the epitaph was good. Even if he'd released that explanation after Episode 8 came out, I'd still believe he'd planned it all along.

If the quality of the mystery's explanation is as good, I'll accept it as being planned all along as well. But I still think not having the mystery's explanation in the story proper badly hurts Umineko.
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Old 2011-03-15, 00:39   Link #119
naikou
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I never had much interest in the epitaph (I figured it was going to be some kanji-related riddle early on), and it turns out it wasn't all that important to solving the mystery. But I do think a lot of research went into making it a neat little puzzle. And there were times when Ryukishi even admitted that it might be unsolvable for certain people, depending on language barriers and such.

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Well, when I say "consistent", I mean handle everything consistently (which scenes are fake, what's allowed to be used in red text).
See, I thought that part was really clever. In EP2, you're so busy convincing yourself that the magic scenes are fake that you forget to doubt the more subtle fake conversations with Kinzo (and any other scene without Battler present).
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Old 2011-03-15, 03:30   Link #120
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Actually, I thought the point to the Epitaph was that yes, you dismiss it as some kind of word play puzzle. It was only a few people who started off suspecting that there was a second use to the Epitaph, that is the games that Beatrice plays for Battler involving faking their deaths.

So in that sense the Epitaph was worked into a 2nd big part of the story...
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