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Old 2011-03-18, 12:51   Link #201
Jan-Poo
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I... would be lying if I'd say that I totally wasn't seeing this coming. I know that this kind of outcome was foreshadowed, I just hoped with all my heart that there was a misunderstanding of some sort or that Ryuukishi was just being modest or overly critic...

It's not like I suddenly begun to criticize Ryuukishi's choices anyway, I've been doing it since a long while. I did say that after EP6 the "game" was pretty much dead.

I guess I've been a bit in denial, or rather I decided to suspend my judgement until the very end. And I did say that I was being exceptionally patient, because normally I would have already concluded that Ryuukishi didn't make things right.

It turned out that I really didn't need to wait that long and I should have better accepted that there was no way for Ryuukishi to fix his mess.

So in the end what I can acknowledge is that I've been stupid not to realize this sooner, but the fact that it was announced doesn't make it better as Renall clearly explained.



As a side note, imagine a story that is so confusing and messed up that make everyone give up in finding a logic in it and make them believe that it's just lame, imagine that the author is doing his best to make the readers believe that most scenes are worthless and bear no real meaning... and then in the end it shows how actually everything makes perfect sense and makes the readers feel ashamed for reaching those hasted conclusions.

Wouldn't that be great? Deep inside me I thought that Ryuukishi could pull something like that.
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Old 2011-03-18, 13:05   Link #202
nevill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Telling someone you're going to do something stupid doesn't excuse you from being considered stupid for having done it.
Well, we've seen it before. 'Kinzo is dead' is bad writing, 'Skhannon' is bad writing, now it's the turn of 'Multiple truths'. When the dust settles, people will be able to accept it as a legitimate trick.

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura
Remember, though, that the Witch of Truth lost that fight. Because she was wrong, and Beato had a third solution planned the whole time.
She lost because there was more to the truth than she thought. It works in favor of the concept, rather than against it.
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Old 2011-03-18, 13:15   Link #203
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I really really thought that Ryuukishi would provide a very good explanation for Shkanon! I really really thought it would happen! Renall knows! I've been saying it all along!

Man.... I was sooo wrong...
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Old 2011-03-18, 13:47   Link #204
Chron
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Originally Posted by nevill View Post
Well, we've seen it before. 'Kinzo is dead' is bad writing, 'Skhannon' is bad writing, now it's the turn of 'Multiple truths'. When the dust settles, people will be able to accept it as a legitimate trick.


She lost because there was more to the truth than she thought. It works in favor of the concept, rather than against it.
The reason you're taking the lone stand at the alamo isn't because Ryuukishi is some kind of genius. Its because you've been sucked in by his boasts and claims, and simply take them for what he says they are.

But we know good writing from bad, and having spent a good deal of time on ryuukishi's wild goose chase, we know better than most what were talking about. That ryuukishi got away with this doesn't make it good writing. Its just exploiting the fact that most people don't think, and believe whatever moral is put in front of them. Not to mention his open disdain for readers who actually do think.

That ryuukishi made this call over a year ago, and the rest of us refused to believe he'd do something so ridiculous only makes us guilty of optimism.

That you actually buy into what he's peddling is your own fault, it doesn't make you right.
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Old 2011-03-18, 14:11   Link #205
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Originally Posted by nevill View Post
Well, we've seen it before. 'Kinzo is dead' is bad writing, 'Skhannon' is bad writing, now it's the turn of 'Multiple truths'. When the dust settles, people will be able to accept it as a legitimate trick.
  • "Kinzo is dead" isn't bad writing at all. It's actually extremely well done. It has a definitive purpose from the very start of the series and there are massive hints as early as Legend (Natsuhi's bizarre seemingly out of character Kinzo).
  • Shkannon is bad writing. He just tried to introduce a lot of sob story to make us feel sorry for the individual. For some, this was enough. Doesn't make it less stupid or more useful to the plot from any angle (it isn't and it doesn't).
  • You act like Author Theorists haven't been saying multiple truths are possible within fictional stories all along. I think I was the one who even suggested, after someone (Lyrical?) mentioned the cups-and-coins thing, that Beatrice could have been discussing a different story, which would basically have been equivalent to the "multiple truths" thing. All Erika has to realize to have her moment of self-doubt is that she herself is a fictional character and the fictional mysteries are never going to produce an actual real-world truth. That itself has no bearing whatsoever on "what's in the box."
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Old 2011-03-18, 14:39   Link #206
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The thing that bothers me is that, stupidity or lack thereof aside, Ryukishi did say we weren't getting all the answers, and from a logical standpoint, as stated, we're not getting real-world truths from fictional stories. There's no remaining evidence. How the fuck are we supposed to learn the Truth without invoking magic or a deus ex machina? Sure, you could reveal Battler was still alive, but then you have to explain why he was a complete douchebag and didn't come back to Ange ASAP.

Add on that Ryukishi made all of his characters EXTREMELY sympathetic and likable, to the point that trying to paint any of them as capable of murder makes them seem extremely out of character to the point that you can only accuse Bern of trolling.

So he kind of fucked up and put himself into a corner before he even had a chance to write EP8. He was kind of screwed.
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Old 2011-03-18, 14:43   Link #207
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
How the fuck are we supposed to learn the Truth without invoking magic or a deus ex machina? Sure, you could reveal Battler was still alive, but then you have to explain why he was a complete douchebag and didn't come back to Ange ASAP.
"Unless it's Amnesia. No, that's just silly. Nobody would do something like that and expect us to swallow it after all of this."
-Me, a year ago
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Old 2011-03-18, 15:36   Link #208
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Originally Posted by Chron View Post
The reason you're taking the lone stand at the alamo isn't because Ryuukishi is some kind of genius. Its because you've been sucked in by his boasts and claims, and simply take them for what he says they are.
If my words came out as arrogant, I apologize. But yes, I bought this 'trust between the author and the reader' thing. And I think I've got a better deal.

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That ryuukishi got away with this doesn't make it good writing. Its just exploiting the fact that most people don't think, and believe whatever moral is put in front of them.
So there was a moral? We didn't need to fill the blanks ourselves? I would like to know what was your take on the moral of his story. I am asking not because I want to ridicule or something, but because of genuine interest.

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That ryuukishi made this call over a year ago, and the rest of us refused to believe he'd do something so ridiculous only makes us guilty of optimism. That you actually buy into what he's peddling is your own fault, it doesn't make you right.
Thus, everyone who ever read the novel until the end is either faulty, or guilty. Isn't that a bit harsh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight
The thing that bothers me is that, stupidity or lack thereof aside, Ryukishi did say we weren't getting all the answers, and from a logical standpoint, as stated, we're not getting real-world truths from fictional stories.
For me, trying to find out what could have been proved to be more interesting than trying to guess what had really happened. There is more truth in the former. Therefore it didn't bother me one bit.
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Old 2011-03-18, 15:46   Link #209
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For me, trying to find out what could have been proved to be more interesting than trying to guess what had really happened. There is more truth in the former. Therefore it didn't bother me one bit.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand what this statement means. Can you elaborate or clarify?
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Old 2011-03-18, 15:48   Link #210
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As a side note, imagine a story that is so confusing and messed up that make everyone give up in finding a logic in it and make them believe that it's just lame, imagine that the author is doing his best to make the readers believe that most scenes are worthless and bear no real meaning... and then in the end it shows how actually everything makes perfect sense and makes the readers feel ashamed for reaching those hasted conclusions.

Wouldn't that be great? Deep inside me I thought that Ryuukishi could pull something like that.
I'll be honest, this is more or less how I felt as well. For all the crap I gave him, I sort of wanted him to prove me wrong.

"I know this all seems like a bunch of illogical bullshit, but...what if he is a genius?"

Turned out that, unfortunately, what I should have asked myself was...

http://www.cracked.com/blog/what-if-...t-is-retarded/

I kid, I kid. But the series was disappointing for me. Perhaps I shouldn't have set my expectations so high...but the series itself didn't help in that regard.
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Old 2011-03-18, 16:49   Link #211
nevill
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I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand what this statement means. Can you elaborate or clarify?
I tried to clarify it in the previous post but fell short of words (English isn't my native, after all), so I erased everything. I'll try to explain as best as I can.

No matter what conflicting motives or feelings made someone do something, once the action is done, it's done, there is no going back. The action is what is judged, and not the motive. You won't understand a person based on his actions alone. Finding out what he did will yield you a single truth, and you will never learn more. In Higurashi, the Onikakushi ark, if we view it as a standalone work, was a story about a schoolboy who murdered two of his best friends - presumably, out of self-defence - and later died in mysterious circumstances. Everyone treats it as such, and it remains the truth of that world.

But once you understand a person, you can not only find out what he did, but also what he could have done. These 'what ifs' form multiple truths that are more important than the single truth of what actually happened. It can change our impression of their actions, of the story - everything. It was Tsumihoroboshi ark when we finally were able to understand what a tragedy Onikakushi really was. A little insight in Keichi's and Rena's characters, and the story shone in a different light.

The interpretation of the fact might be just as important as the fact itself. In Umineko, 'there were no bad people', yet one of them was the murderer. Someone turned out to be a murderer, even if he could live a normal life, were the circumstances just a bit different.

You couldn't sympathize with a murderer, right? Yet, as Aura Twilight said, Ryukishi made all of the characters extremely sympathetic. It is almost as if he dares us to find a way to resolve the situation on the island in a peaceful way, to find a truth among truths that would allow for happy ending, the one that Will strived for. The question I pose myself with, was there really no way for Ushiromiya family to survive? Are they truly doomed?

Ryukishi did say that fans might as well write their our ending if they are dissatisfied with his. I wish I could write a forgery that explored this possibility. Forget what really happened, was there a hope of a different outcome to begin with?

Do I make sense?

Last edited by nevill; 2011-03-18 at 18:57.
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:01   Link #212
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Yes.

But that's a concept that succeeds in spite of ryuikishi, not because of him. It means that his characters are greater than his skill as a writer. And that is no compliment.
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:08   Link #213
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Well wait... if his characters are great it's thanks to how he depicted them.... There are many different narrative skills, there isn't just one.

One can be a master in creating intricate plots, one can be better at creating the right atmospheres and one can be great at creating charming characters.

I think the critiques here are focused on his skills at creating a well structured and consistent story and not about the rest, at least that's how it is for me.
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:29   Link #214
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In fact, it's because his character skills are so good that we immediately assumed his plot would be just as good.

Quote:
Ryukishi did say that fans might as well write their our ending if they are dissatisfied with his.
"If you don't like what I did HEY THERE IS ALWAYS FANFIC!"
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:32   Link #215
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I just can't give Ryukishi much shit, though. I mean, his story is still more coherent and delivered a better payoff than Evangelion and everyone sucks that show's dick.
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Old 2011-03-18, 18:38   Link #216
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To be fair, I give Evangelion credit because it's possibly the best developed acid trip I have ever seen, and it makes no bones about being full of bullshit and stuff that "is there because it looks cool".

It's unpretentious in it's pretentiousness, I guess?

And I disagree, Jan-Poo. While Ryuukishi's world building skills are indeed top-class, if he can't even construct a coherent narrative that takes adventage of them, then that's a failure on his part. I mean, you and I agree that Higurashi is a superior work, right? Why is that?

It's more focused on a smaller cast, and it led to Ryuukishi putting the focus on each member of the cast in turn, and then developing them wonderfully. This developed into a strong plot which was variet of "what if" scenarios that portrayed how each individual member of the cast reacts given specific stimulus, with the deus ex machina of Rika's memories allowing for the possibility of previous tragedies being avoided by knowing what each stimulus leads down which path.

Essentially, Higurashi succeeded because it was not a mystery, nor because it was a fantasy, but because it was a character study.

Umineko is not truly designed as a character study, it's designed to be some kind of literary statement, where Ryuukishi proclaims his genius and insights about the mystery genre and...other crap for the rest of the world to see. With the exception of Beatrice, most deep characterization in Umineko is an afterthought. The Natsuhi development was an afterthought, done as a reaction to a commonplace theory of the time. Eva was never really developed, most of the cast wasn't until the very end game. George got some develop, mostly as evolving discussions during his proposal scene in each of the games, Shannon and Kanon grew as meta characters, and Battler wasnt developed at all.

Umineko disappoints because Ryuukishi overestimated himself, and decided to leave his strengths by the wayside in favor of making a bold statement of how clever he is for the rest of us to see. And...well, it aint as good as he thinks it is. That's the problem.

Overestimating oneself isn't something a professional should do. It's amateurish. He really should know better.
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Old 2011-03-18, 18:51   Link #217
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Eva was never really developed
I disagree? She may not have gotten as much development as say Ange and Natsuhi. But her motivations are at least clarified unlike a lot of the cast.

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Umineko disappoints because Ryuukishi overestimated himself, and decided to leave his strengths by the wayside in favor of making a bold statement of how clever he is for the rest of us to see. And...well, it aint as good as he thinks it is. That's the problem.
He might act that way sometimes. I think his problem is actually that he Lamp shaded the plot way too much.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-03-18 at 19:10.
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Old 2011-03-18, 18:56   Link #218
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To be fair, i don't think Umineko setting allows too much character development... Higurashi had a much more "free" and easy setting.
I think he provided a lot of deepness for most of his characters in Umineko. Kinzo, Rosa, Maria, etc. They are not extraordinary developed, but i can feel they are well-rounded characters and not just flat figures.
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Old 2011-03-18, 19:41   Link #219
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Add on that Ryukishi made all of his characters EXTREMELY sympathetic and likable, to the point that trying to paint any of them as capable of murder makes them seem extremely out of character to the point that you can only accuse Bern of trolling.
I'd have to disagree. I don't think we see anything about (for argument's sake) Kyrie that suggests she couldn't be a murderer. Heck, she out and tells us she would've (or possibly did) murder someone 6 years before the incident. Over an issue which is clearly still ongoing and may be about to get much, much worse.
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Old 2011-03-18, 19:44   Link #220
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All if his characters are, he could have done so much more with them, but didnt. That's no ones fault but his.
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