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Old 2011-03-17, 12:16   Link #22341
Thanatos of Crows
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Could have been an accident, too. Rosa getting mad at Maria, strangling her and Eva trying to get her hands off Maria. Unlikely, considering the scenes shown, but could've been true if the events weren't a part of a mystery novel.
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Old 2011-03-17, 16:15   Link #22342
Kealym
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Could have been an accident, too. Rosa getting mad at Maria, strangling her and Eva trying to get her hands off Maria. Unlikely, considering the scenes shown, but could've been true if the events weren't a part of a mystery novel.
Eh.
That's in the realm of theories where "Yeah, it's possible. But why complicate things further?" Occam's Razor and all. You just have to imagine a pretty wierd course of events for it to work.

Of course, imagining Shkanon doing ... anything, really, during EP3 paints a wierd course of events, so, eh.
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Old 2011-03-17, 19:40   Link #22343
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Eh.
Of course, imagining Shkanon doing ... anything, really, during EP3 paints a wierd course of events, so, eh.
So uh... who killed Nanjo and George?
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Old 2011-03-17, 22:26   Link #22344
Mirrored
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So uh... who killed Nanjo and George?
And Jessica.
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Old 2011-03-17, 23:05   Link #22345
Mirrored
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Could have been an accident, too. Rosa getting mad at Maria, strangling her and Eva trying to get her hands off Maria. Unlikely, considering the scenes shown, but could've been true if the events weren't a part of a mystery novel.
More likely sequence of events:

Eva and Rosa have another argument about telling the others about the gold.
They push and shove each other. Eva ends up pushing Rosa and either intentionally or unintentionally impales her in a fence post.

Maria then begins wailing. Realizing that Maria will tell everyone what has happened, Eva pounces on Maria, then strangles her to death. She then returns to the Guest Room.
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Old 2011-03-17, 23:38   Link #22346
SonozakiUshiromiya
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Jessica had probably gotten caught in the explosion. Nanjo and George...I'll have to get back at you on those.
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Old 2011-03-18, 00:14   Link #22347
Judoh
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The Nanjo murder has been discussed ad nauseum. If Will were to make a reference to summarize, the answer for it it would probably be "a red herring swallowed him and then there were three".

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-03-18 at 00:31.
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Old 2011-03-18, 06:36   Link #22348
unsuspectingvisitor
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there's something i notice about the red that eva-beatrice used in ep3,im talking about the red "The 15 people mentioned are dead"and the other red, it just say "this person is dead"it didn't say the time of death whatsoever so its possible that the culprit died after nanjo's murder.
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Old 2011-03-18, 07:56   Link #22349
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That's very hard not to notice since that's what Battler says in EP4
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Old 2011-03-18, 08:45   Link #22350
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Depends whether you intended to cause grievous bodily harm or not. If not, it could be some high degree of aggravated manslaughter... maybe?
It's felony murder in any case.
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Old 2011-03-18, 11:29   Link #22351
Leafsnail
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And Jessica.
Didn't die. At least, if she did die before the Tenth Twilight, we don't know about it.

It guess it's almost certain that Shkannon guided her to safety though. Convenient blindness and "you can't touch me" means s/he wouldn't even have to change costumes.

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The Nanjo murder has been discussed ad nauseum. If Will were to make a reference to summarize, the answer for it it would probably be "a red herring swallowed him and then there were three".
Yeah, I know, but it does show that someone else was involved at the end.
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Old 2011-03-18, 16:11   Link #22352
unsuspectingvisitor
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That's very hard not to notice since that's what Battler says in EP4
actually, im just starting to read ep4 so i don't know what your talking about
but thanks for the info anyways.
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:03   Link #22353
Jan-Poo
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actually, im just starting to read ep4 so i don't know what your talking about
but thanks for the info anyways.
Oooh... that's unexpected. This is the spoiler and theories thread so usually only people that already read the latest episode (or those who are already spoilered about them) write here.
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:16   Link #22354
unsuspectingvisitor
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Oooh... that's unexpected. This is the spoiler and theories thread so usually only people that already read the latest episode (or those who are already spoilered about them) write here.
sorry my bad i didn't read the rules
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Old 2011-03-18, 22:24   Link #22355
Kealym
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So uh... who killed Nanjo and George?
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Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
And Jessica.
Well, I'll let it rest, as this topic has apparently been done to death.
But, seriously, the answer is kinda the same as the answer to "Can the Ep3 culprit be a solo Eva?"

And that answer is "Sure, why not." Applying it specifically to Nanjo / George / Jessica, "They were killed by ... well, whoever you find most convenient." All we really know is that it wasn't Eva, Battler Jessica, or Kinzo. Kyrie or Rudolf works as well as Shkanon.

All I'm saying is that it paints a wierd chain of events, either way, really.
And going by the TIPS, I assume Shkanon just ... chatted with Jessie until they exploded and stuff. Still wierd, but, /shrug.
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Old 2011-03-19, 11:42   Link #22356
neutrino
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Rosa and Maria were killed by other people




"your honor my client only intended to get the victim high as a kite even though she didn't want to she didn't mean to kill her"

See if that works in court. It's either intentional or it's not. There's no such thing as a partial accident.
There's negligent homicide, but you've proven my point. The person responsible would want to get rid of witnesses (like Maria) because that person would be morally and legally responsible for Rosa's death (felony murder) like the red text says.



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That's nice and all, but the point is there's really no evidence that this was ever used or that it exists on the island and the reader wouldn't have knowledge of this drug if it wasn't mentioned in the story. Also you can explain this just as well with Eva either killing her and then Killing Maria or it simply just being an accident. Try practicing Occam's Razor.
I don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, just come up with a reasonable hypothesis that satisfies Knox's commandments (even if they aren't stated to apply) and explains the symptoms displayed. Sherlock Holmes didn't prove what the culprit used in "The Adventure of the Speckled Band" before confronting the murderer.

Eva had no motive to kill Rosa. They'd already come to an agreement, and even if Eva had decided to renege, she could have just strung Rosa along for a couple of months. In my use of Occam's razor, I have one murderer, with Rudolf and Kyrie killing in self-defense and Eva killing the murderer at the end.
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Old 2011-03-19, 15:14   Link #22357
Judoh
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I don't have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, just come up with a reasonable hypothesis that satisfies Knox's commandments (even if they aren't stated to apply) and explains the symptoms displayed.
If you want satisfy Knox's 8th you do. And I'm basically invoking Occam's razor on the unneeded assumption that you need any drugs at all to make this murder work.

Quote:
Sherlock Holmes didn't prove what the culprit used in "The Adventure of the Speckled Band" before confronting the murderer.
Sherlock Holmes wasn't fair play. He dates before the concept of fair play mysteries came up.

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-03-19 at 15:25.
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:46   Link #22358
Kylon99
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You don't need to pick an extreme. You don't need to kill someone over a mistake, but you also don't need to forgive them.

Ryuukishi's lesson is flawed. He didn't show us any reason we should want to forgive other than him preaching that forgiveness is good. Why, we don't even know what we should forgive the culprit of!

What's his response to that?

"WITHOUT LOVE IT CANNOT BE SEEN!"

...Yes real mature Ryu.

Without getting in the nature of how valid his lesson might be, he just did it badly. Really badly. His fanbase loves to be trolled, which gives him a pass in being inconsistent.
That doesn't sound like what Ryukishi was talking about.

I actually don't remember Ryukishi saying anything about forgiveness regarding the siblings. I remember Battler urging Ange to remember her family the way she should remember them from her memories, rather than the made-up nonsense and conspiracy theories of the Witch Hunters. He was trying to tell them that they had a side to them that was different from their (now) public imagining. But this is different than forgiveness.

"Without love it can't be DISCERNED" didn't seem to apply to the family so much as it applied to Beatrice (or Yasu and her merry bunch). And that wasn't anything about forgiving Beatrice, but understanding why she did what she did. And what her sins were. I don't remember if anyone 'forgave' her, but it seemed like Battler wanted to give her another chance at the end, albeit to continue to live with her sins, which she ultimately rejected and decided she had to die for them.

And finally, how can we be sure there IS a culprit in Rokkenjima Prime to begin with? The police reports all indicate it was an accident. Even the trial that Eva had, if you could believe EP3 (or was it 4) was portraying Rokkenjima Prime ended with an acquittal.


There should be a culprit in the stories that were made about the Rokkenjima Incident, of course, but I don't think people in Rokkenjima Prime can talk about that culprit being 'evil' or being 'forgiven.'

For example, I don't think I can 'forgive' or accuse Antonio Salieri in Korsakov's opera (or the 1984 movie, Amadeus) of being evil, even if he did drive Mozart to his death. And I cannot forgive or accuse the real world Salieri because it looks like he had nothing to do with Mozart dying, even though there were rumors later of his possible involvement, despite there being no evidence.

Or in another example, where the culprit is truly guilty in the real world, I cannot forgive or declare the Jack the Ripper characters in various novels and films (and even one Star Trek episode!) as being 'evil.' Maybe representations of evil, but not a being that is evil like any of us can be. However, the real Jack the Ripper was a very evil serial killer and there's plenty of evidence there. But then these are two distinct entities.


Anyways, just thought I'd point this out. I know you guys are arguing something slightly different, but I thought the situation with specifics to Umineko needed to be mentioned.. Even in Higurashi, Keiichi mentioned that he 'sinned' when he murdered his friends in one earlier world when he finally remembered it. The theme is from both series that good people can go bad and kill and here are all the different reasons. Some better (feeling cornered, running out of money, greed) ... and some not good (a virus that makes you paranoid... )...
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:53   Link #22359
Renall
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Again, the presence or absence of a culprit is actually not that important to the story, I will agree. However, the fact that there was or wasn't such a situation known to the characters within the story is actually quite important, both narratively and thematically. It's not about figuring out whodunnit so much as wanting to know the details, whatever they may be, to provide knowledge moving forward into the future. However, knowing the details oneself doesn't suffice if there is the possibility that the knowledge will not be transmitted to others but for one's own intervention; that I think is Ange's failing. I have no problem with her reaction to her own discovery of the truth (in whatever capacity that was by the end). I just wish the story remembered that people other than her exist and their feelings also matter.
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Old 2011-03-20, 18:17   Link #22360
Kylon99
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Again, the presence or absence of a culprit is actually not that important to the story, I will agree. However, the fact that there was or wasn't such a situation known to the characters within the story is actually quite important, both narratively and thematically. It's not about figuring out whodunnit so much as wanting to know the details, whatever they may be, to provide knowledge moving forward into the future. However, knowing the details oneself doesn't suffice if there is the possibility that the knowledge will not be transmitted to others but for one's own intervention; that I think is Ange's failing. I have no problem with her reaction to her own discovery of the truth (in whatever capacity that was by the end). I just wish the story remembered that people other than her exist and their feelings also matter.
It's almost like there's two 'things' in Umineko here. One is the Detective Story, of which there needs to be a crime, a body, a murder and a culprit. And a final explanation chapter. The other is the Tragic Love Story which we all know about now and have seen come to a close...

My main concern is the Detective Story though. I don't think that part is finished with regards to the mechanics of Beatrice's stories and some kind of explanation needs to be forthcoming. And also, as it seems everyone thinks George is the real culprit, an explanation of what he actually did.


For what it's worth, I consider this Tragic Love Story finished and any remaining details left can happen 'out of scene.' In terms of the tragedy itself though, it is as you say, some people in Rokkenjima Prime didn't get any explanations at all... in this sense, minor characters may have been left hanging, but in regards to the main characters they've all had their closure.

I'm sorry, Sabakichi... you will be left out. Also that son of Nanjo, it looked like he was wearing his years of bitterness quite faithfully. And.. won't SOMEONE think of Gouda's mom?!

Maybe he needed a little blurb about how Old-Ange secretly contacted the other survivors and told them whatever she knew. That would probably conclude it properly....

Speaking of which, Ryukishi has done this before, where he has put out an episode and decided that he needed to amend it with further episodes. With Higurashi, after the

Spoiler for Higurashi Endings:


I think I remember reading that he wasn't satisfied with the first ending, and so the second one came about. So I think the situation may be a bit more fluid than traditional novels with Umineko.
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