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Old 2011-03-18, 19:40   Link #81
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
also I refuse the claim that there was any setup from Battler's or Beatrice's side as long as a real evidence isn't shown.
Battler giving Erika exactly the right number of seals and a retroactive power? Battler agreeing to trap EVERYONE inside Erika's seals, even though his own internal narration said it was a bad idea? Battler saying that he was planting the seeds for a miracle, a miracle which would cause Beatrice to remember who she was, and later... having a miracle which caused Beatrice to remember who she was?

There's definitely plenty of stuff suggesting it. You can refuse to believe it nevertheless if you like, though.
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Old 2011-03-18, 20:50   Link #82
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I'm not even sure what constitutes "real evidence" in a meta-world to begin with. I guess Ryukishi got us convinced enough of his lead's incompetence that we refuse to believe otherwise.

Kinda Columbo-y, eh?
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Old 2011-03-18, 22:38   Link #83
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I like Genius Battler Theory, myself. It's very Kinzo-like.
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Old 2011-03-19, 01:06   Link #84
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Lambda also likens his game style to poker rather than chess. She says that he relies on luck and hopes for a card change to turn it into something more useful.
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Old 2011-03-19, 01:48   Link #85
Used Can
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As for the mystery part of Umineko. I think it depends on how you see it. Technically speaking, EPs 1-4 can be seen as 4 separate mystery novels all of which have a proper answer. Of course, whether the answer is acceptable is another thing. But, one way or the other, there is one, and the mysteries on those novels got solved.

EPs 5-8 seem to be a different thing. Notice the setting is rather different, since the stories play out differently, and these episodes are definitely more meta. These episodes were the ones that revealed (or, more clearly, gave hints) to reach the answers in the first four episodes. Yet, at the same time, they told us about the characters - as in, aside the mystery - and also about the supposed real events in Rokkenjima. In fact, if we go by EPs 7-8 we can technically say we've got enough information to tell what actually happened in the island. Of course, this case is no mystery at all, because even though we can find information about it in the mysteries (i.e. EPs 1-4) there were definitely no hints to reach the actual culprits and how the actual crime was pulled of.

So, I wouldn't say Umineko is a mystery novel, but the mysteries stories contained in it, definitely worked as such.
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Old 2011-03-19, 03:21   Link #86
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Battler giving Erika exactly the right number of seals and a retroactive power? Battler agreeing to trap EVERYONE inside Erika's seals, even though his own internal narration said it was a bad idea? Battler saying that he was planting the seeds for a miracle, a miracle which would cause Beatrice to remember who she was, and later... having a miracle which caused Beatrice to remember who she was?

There's definitely plenty of stuff suggesting it. You can refuse to believe it nevertheless if you like, though.

What about the fact that we are shown several scenes with Battler alone in the closed room filled with panic, terror and despair?

If the genius Battler theory was true then Battler would have never been in a real pinch and could have never made those thoughts.

There is absolutely no observer of those scenes apart from those outside the story. The genius Battler theory would imply that the sixth game is even worse than Heavy Rain.

Also there was absolutely no reason for Battler to not reveal that he planned it all along in the end, something that he never does, nor anyone anywhere does.
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Old 2011-03-19, 03:36   Link #87
Used Can
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Well, the scene in the closed room isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with the Genius Battler theory, though. Battler's behaviour could be very well understood depending on how much time he spent in that place. Even if he got there in purpose, expecting to get a reaction from Beato so that she could be restored/awakened to her previous self, at some point he could easily have become frustrated, and no matter what his plan is, he started to lose it. That'd be part of the risk in his bet.
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Old 2011-03-19, 03:37   Link #88
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What about the fact that we are shown several scenes with Battler alone in the closed room filled with panic, terror and despair?
"It's all going according keikaku ihihihihi! Now I just gotta wait for Beato to solve everything and... OH SHIT! Erika's gonna turn me into her mind slave to take over the game board!! GOTTA GET OUTTA HERE!! UUOOOOOOHHH!!! THIS PLAN WAS STUPID!!"

Also why are we talking about Genius Battler theory in the mystery thread...?
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Old 2011-03-19, 10:12   Link #89
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Also why are we talking about Genius Battler theory in the mystery thread...?
No clue. To make lemons from lemonade, what are some good examples in mystery of detectives who appear to screw everything up right before they reveal their masterful solution? There are detectives who tend to act less intelligent than they are (Poirot, Columbo), but I don't know of a large number of instances in which the detective intentionally misleads everyone toward an incorrect solution as part of his plan to locate the correct one. One or two where a fact is made up/intentionally lied about to draw a correction from the culprit, which I guess is where I'm going with this.

Though there is Orient Express's "This is what happened, right everyone, wink wink?" But that was after he'd figured it all out, not a trick to get someone to reveal otherwise.
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Old 2011-03-19, 12:20   Link #90
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Philo Vance in _The Benson Murder Case_, provides a case against a minor character, just to prove that evidence isn't everything. He also follows a false case in _The Scarab Murder Case_ as well.
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Old 2011-03-19, 12:40   Link #91
naikou
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I don't think there's a very good mystery equivalent to what Battler did.

Maybe if the detective, like... convicted himself as the criminal so that he could buy some time, or something? And then somehow this is all part of a master plan to get his adorable female Watson to awaken to her true deductive powers, and simultaneously fall in love with him while rescuing him from jail?

brb, writing a mystery novel.
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Old 2011-03-19, 13:17   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Philo Vance in _The Benson Murder Case_, provides a case against a minor character, just to prove that evidence isn't everything. He also follows a false case in _The Scarab Murder Case_ as well.
(In Benson)Vance made a case against literally every suspect just to prove he could before moving on to the culprit, which was hilarious in my opinion.

Spoiler:
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Old 2011-03-19, 17:42   Link #93
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(In Benson)Vance made a case against literally every suspect just to prove he could before moving on to the culprit, which was hilarious in my opinion.

Spoiler:
Which is why it's art. Hilarious literary art. It teases the readers deductive process as a means of justifying Vance's psychological approach.

It's greatly done.
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Old 2011-03-19, 18:07   Link #94
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Other examples: The Greek Coffin Mystery and Double, Double by Ellery Queen, also Death Turns the Tables by John Dickson Carr.
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Old 2011-03-19, 18:09   Link #95
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...I hate that I have been unable to find any copies of any of those works...I guess I'll have to get a kindle or something and just buy them online.
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Old 2011-03-19, 18:21   Link #96
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I've had a hell of a time finding anything by Ellery Queen anywhere. There's a couple of Carr novels on Kindle, but not anything like the full list.
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Old 2011-03-19, 18:35   Link #97
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Try watching ebay. There's a lot with a copy of Greek Coffin right now.
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Old 2011-03-19, 19:06   Link #98
Sherringford
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And for Canadians, Chapters is great for finding old mystery books for a reasonable price. All used and sold by members rather than the actual store(of course) but the price is somewhat reasonable, even if the shipping kills it at times. Lots of Queen and Carr over there. If all fails, Amazon (usually) has some copies available even if at a rather terrible price.

Which is great for me because I've got absolutely no idea where my Queen books are, I might just have to buy some more.
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Old 2011-03-19, 21:26   Link #99
Used Can
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Do you guys have any experience with Japanese mystery novels? My only experience is with Ranpo, and that comes down to only a few novels, since his most popular works have not been translated (really a pity). There's also an anime I saw, which is the adaptation of a book of the same name called Mōryō no Hako (I'd recommend anyone who hasn't watched to watch it).

Anyway, I really need more books from Queen. I've only read the Chinese Orange Mystery.
I'd also like to give Van Dine a try, since I've never read any of his works. Sadly, his books along with Queen's are rather difficult to find.
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Old 2011-03-19, 21:40   Link #100
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I don't have much experience with Japanese mystery novels to be honest, although I'd like to change that.

Van Dine's works are available in free pdfs(legally) so if you want those, they are easy to find. They are also very cheap on kindle if you got one of those, all 12 novels for 7 or 8 dollars.
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