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Old 2011-03-20, 11:56   Link #241
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Who cares? The "true culprit" is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of Umineko.
I do. Renall does. Many people do.
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Old 2011-03-20, 12:00   Link #242
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That's what pisses me off. If it wasn't important why he made the readers think about that for four long years?

He made use speculate about the mystery, he enforced us to do so over and over, he even used Featherine as a way to berate those who don't try to reason.

Whodunnit, howdunnit, whydunnit. These concepts were repeated ad nauseam! And he never planned to reveal them in the end, or rather he wanted us to think about those and speculate about those until our head would blow just to tell us in the end that "it isn't that important".

Ah, yes it was his "grand plan", but I don't really feel like thanking him for toying with me and wasting my time.

It would have been better if Umineko was openly stated to be some artistic work or pure entertaining instead of a "game".


I just can't believe that Malkuth was right all along, there was the whole forum against him and now people are just saying what he was saying one and a half year ago.
Did you completely forget him?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ch#post2703378

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...=89677&page=17

Here, please read, it's tragically funny how prophetic was what he wrote, and how funny how he was the first to mention David Lynch when no one didn't even consider the chance that Umineko would follow that style and now everyone is doing the same.

And how pathetic the people that tried to defend the series (me included) look now.
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Old 2011-03-20, 12:08   Link #243
Renall
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Who cares? The "true culprit" is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of Umineko. The point isn't who did it, the point is who and what had the most impact on Beato.
Beatrice can go jump in a lake. The world, even the literary world, does not revolve around singular sad girls. Not that you'd know it from all the Beatrice/Maria/Ange pity parties.
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Old 2011-03-20, 12:44   Link #244
Sherringford
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's what pisses me off. If it wasn't important why he made the readers think about that for four long years?

He made use speculate about the mystery, he enforced us to do so over and over, he even used Featherine as a way to berate those who don't try to reason.

Whodunnit, howdunnit, whydunnit. These concepts were repeated ad nauseam! And he never planned to reveal them in the end, or rather he wanted us to think about those and speculate about those until our head would blow just to tell us in the end that "it isn't that important".

Ah, yes it was his "grand plan", but I don't really feel like thanking him for toying with me and wasting my time.

It would have been better if Umineko was openly stated to be some artistic work or pure entertaining instead of a "game".


I just can't believe that Malkuth was right all along, there was the whole forum against him and now people are just saying what he was saying one and a half year ago.
Did you completely forget him?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ch#post2703378

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...=89677&page=17

Here, please read, it's tragically funny how prophetic was what he wrote, and how funny how he was the first to mention David Lynch when no one didn't even consider the chance that Umineko would follow that style and now everyone is doing the same.

And how pathetic the people that tried to defend the series (me included) look now.
I had never seen those posts, but they are definitely hilarious in hindsight. Did anyone call Ryuukishi was just cheating/making stuff up as he went along and got called out on it as well? Or that he'd go with amnesia and had people go "that's wrong!" at him/her?

I'm honestly finding that hilarious.
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Old 2011-03-20, 13:00   Link #245
Chron
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Renall called the amnesia bit, but i don't think the reaction was very vehement.

Wow, that Malkuth buy called EVERYTHING. And the responses of that 1983 guy are truly precious, in hindsight. Thanks for that, Jan-Poo.

Last edited by Chron; 2011-03-20 at 13:20.
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Old 2011-03-20, 14:14   Link #246
naikou
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The culprit really is not important. By not revealing it, Ryukishi says "Blaming someone was not the point of my work, and I don't want anyone to think that it ever was." He wrote a story about compassion and tolerance, not assigning blame. That's what the story has been about since EP4 onward. Sometimes it is better to leave the truth unknown.

And really, sometimes in real life, there is no way to find the truth. There is such a thing as a perfect crime, which no detective (no matter how brilliant) could solve. That's the break between mystery novels and reality, and why, in the end, mystery novels aren't any more true to life than fantasy novels. Real life detectives have to try to solve crimes without any guarantee that their crimes are even solvable. But they still do it, they don't give up because it might be impossible.

Take the solution away from an Ellery Queen novel, and what are you left with? Why, nothing much. A short novel with mostly uninteresting characters, who have a habit of dying in unusual ways. It doesn't say anything about life, or the human condition. Now take the solution away from Umineko (or rather, leave it as it is), and what do you have? Quite a lot! We have wonderful characters who we've seen grow and develop. We have a few very good themes. We have some interesting insights into the mystery and fantasy genres. In short, even without a solution, Umineko still works, it still has something (in my opinion, it is even more powerful without a solution). This, mes amis, is why Umineko is art.

I think if your main concern is about finding the "true culprit", then you've missed the point of Umineko rather badly. But what do I know, I'm just a silly armchair philosopher.
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Old 2011-03-20, 14:15   Link #247
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Quote:
That's what pisses me off. If it wasn't important why he made the readers think about that for four long years?

He made use speculate about the mystery, he enforced us to do so over and over, he even used Featherine as a way to berate those who don't try to reason.

Whodunnit, howdunnit, whydunnit. These concepts were repeated ad nauseam! And he never planned to reveal them in the end, or rather he wanted us to think about those and speculate about those until our head would blow just to tell us in the end that "it isn't that important".

Ah, yes it was his "grand plan", but I don't really feel like thanking him for toying with me and wasting my time.

It would have been better if Umineko was openly stated to be some artistic work or pure entertaining instead of a "game".
In fairness, if Ryukishi's angle here is to make us about as emotionally invested as Ange and then aim his point at both us and her (ignoring the validity or problems with the message for this point in time, please), than it does have an effective "Silent Hill" crap going on.

Quote:
I just can't believe that Malkuth was right all along, there was the whole forum against him and now people are just saying what he was saying one and a half year ago.
Did you completely forget him?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ch#post2703378

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...=89677&page=17

Here, please read, it's tragically funny how prophetic was what he wrote, and how funny how he was the first to mention David Lynch when no one didn't even consider the chance that Umineko would follow that style and now everyone is doing the same.

And how pathetic the people that tried to defend the series (me included) look now.
Eh, not really. From what I see he was arguing shit like "It's literally impossible to drive conclusions that aren't shown to you" or "magic pretty much exists, why is Battler arguing it?" Come on, Ryukishi didn't fuck up THAT bad.

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Beatrice can go jump in a lake. The world, even the literary world, does not revolve around singular sad girls. Not that you'd know it from all the Beatrice/Maria/Ange pity parties.
Unfortunately, in Japan, there's entire literary genres that revolve around exactly that. It's called Utsuge, and it's not even restricted to visual novels. Not Ryukishi's conceit since he grew up in such a culture.
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Old 2011-03-20, 14:34   Link #248
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
I think if your main concern is about finding the "true culprit", then you've missed the point of Umineko rather badly. But what do I know, I'm just a silly armchair philosopher.
Why did you just pop now to make those claims? I've really never heard anything of that sort in years of discussions in this forum.

Unfortunately unless you can prove that this has always be your idea I can't shake the feeling that you're just defending this position because that's what Ryuukishi did.

I had a hell of a hard time just trying to make people accept that Rokkenjima was affected by a large scale disaster, because "it wouldn't be a mystery if there wasn't a clear crime scene" and now people show up saying that finding the culprit has never been important.

Give me a break...


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Eh, not really. From what I see he was arguing shit like "It's literally impossible to drive conclusions that aren't shown to you" or "magic pretty much exists, why is Battler arguing it?" Come on, Ryukishi didn't fuck up THAT bad.
I'm not saying he was 100% correct, but look at some stuff he wrote. this in particular:

Quote:
of course, there is always the solution this is just a dream or delusions or (a rather original one) could be that this is just a show, no explanation ... though if it goes that way, I see the most fanatic supporters becoming quite embittered
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Old 2011-03-20, 14:43   Link #249
naikou
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Unfortunately unless you can prove that this has always be your idea I can't shake the feeling that you're just defending this position because that's what Ryuukishi did.
What the hell, man? Of course it hasn't been my idea all along, at the beginning of Umineko I was busy trying to blame someone, just like everyone else. Then in EP4, I started to doubt whether or not finding the truth really was significant. When EP5 gave us a character who was basically the embodiment of evil for trying to find a solution, my suspicious were confirmed.

But just because I haven't been right all along doesn't mean my opinion doesn't hold water. I'm not trying to say "Look how superior I am! I've been right this whole time, and you've all been on a wild goose chase!" That's not the case at all, I've done my fair share of goose hunting.

What I'm asking you to do is to step back and maybe see that maybe the culprit is not what is the most important thing to take from Umineko. Maybe it is instead the lessons about love, and tolerance, and forgiveness? Maybe the goose chase was just an excuse to show us something far more beautiful than any old goose could be?

And now I am getting sappy, hmph.
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Old 2011-03-20, 14:48   Link #250
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Overall, I'd say Ryukishi was trying to make a "whydunnit". We didn't know what happened. We didn't have any alibis for anyone. All we have is the motives, characters and situations of everyone on the island that day. As such... you can only work out who the killer is if you understand their heart.

Whether or not you think this was successful is up to you.

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But... I like Hideyoshi.

That aside, isn't that self-fulfilling prophecy to argue like that? "Well he got the development, and he definitely needed it" is the other side of the "he didn't get developed much, but it's not like he was that important anyway" coin.
I'd say you're being a bit silly. Beatrice wrote the first 2 stories. She'll write about the people who influenced her, and characterising people according to her own knowledge. Even if we eliminate Ryukishi from the equation, there's a perfectly good reason why characters who don't matter would get no development.

In the 3rd episode onwards, it's written by amnesiac Battler. As far as I know he's going based on scraps of what he remembers and the stories by Beatrice. Therefore, once again... he'll focus on the people who matter.
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Old 2011-03-20, 14:57   Link #251
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
What the hell, man? Of course it hasn't been my idea all along, at the beginning of Umineko I was busy trying to blame someone, just like everyone else. Then in EP4, I started to doubt whether or not finding the truth really was significant. When EP5 gave us a character who was basically the embodiment of evil for trying to find a solution, my suspicious were confirmed.
Then if someone tried to solve the problem of how big the population got over the past few years(set this at 2200 or whatever) by killing everyone, would that suddenly make anyone who tried to solve overpopulation evil?

Quote:
What I'm asking you to do is to step back and maybe see that maybe the culprit is not what is the most important thing to take from Umineko. Maybe it is instead the lessons about love, and tolerance, and forgiveness? Maybe the goose chase was just an excuse to show us something far more beautiful than any old goose could be?

And now I am getting sappy, hmph.
Problem is, Ryuukishi failed to make us care about love, tolerance and forgiveness.
Sure he might have made some people care about it, but let's be frank. He has certain types of fans(not saying you are one of them) who will blindly follow what he says.

"Forgive mass murderers because hey we all make mistakes! Forgive your raping father that raped your mother that was his daughter, because hey we all make mistakes! Forgive me for being a bad writer! It's perfectly fine to use escapism to love three different people at once while tricking them!"

To me, this quote from the Kayne west article describes Umineko's approach to most themes very appropriately.

Quote:
Kanye's Book

Kanye claims he's publishing the book because he often gets misquoted, and he's trying to combat that. This is actually a wise move; eliminate the middle man of media and take your marketing and public relations into your own hands and you can be a totally free artist. The book itself, which isn't actually about ensuring Kanye gets accurately quoted and seems more concerned with GIANT BRIGHT LETTERS and quick-hitting, almost-clever proverbs, is goofy and inoffensive. It would be a perfect toilet book and just another piece to add to Kanye's collection of bizarre and unpredictable career moves. One more thing to add to the legend he seems bent on creating for himself.

But What if Kanye West is Retarded?



If Kanye West is retarded, then he genuinely believes this book contains useful words to live by, and that is horrifying.



Read more: http://www.cracked.com/blog/what-if-...#ixzz1HAhXQYo4
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:11   Link #252
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...If you actually were in Ange's position, I don't think it'd be an entirely bad thing to put it to the back of your mind and move on with your life. It doesn't mean you've forgiven the criminal or Kinzo... you're just using "magic" so that your life isn't destroyed even more than it needs to be.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:14   Link #253
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I still like my theory that Battler was bullshitting because giving someone information they can't possess through non-magical means is impossible, so he decided to just make her feel better.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:16   Link #254
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Originally Posted by Sherringford View Post
Then if someone tried to solve the problem of how big the population got over the past few years(set this at 2200 or whatever) by killing everyone, would that suddenly make anyone who tried to solve overpopulation evil?
The point of Erika wasn't to say, "All mystery fans are evil!". It was to say, "People who are so concerned about finding the truth that they're blind to the problems they cause are evil."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherringford
Problem is, Ryuukishi failed to make us care about love, tolerance and forgiveness.
Sure he might have made some people care about it, but let's be frank. He has certain types of fans(not saying you are one of them) who will blindly follow what he says.

"Forgive mass murderers because hey we all make mistakes! Forgive your raping father that raped your mother that was his daughter, because hey we all make mistakes! Forgive me for being a bad writer! It's perfectly fine to use escapism to love three different people at once while tricking them!"
Sorry, I'm of the opinion that all people do things for reasons. Sure, there are bad people out there, but no one is 100% bad. Maybe mass murderers can't be forgiven, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand them. What Umineko does is take these extreme cases (mass murder, incest, rape), and show that even these people are human beings.

That, in my opinion, is far better, and far more beautiful than having Lion kill Kinzo for his crimes, or portraying Beatrice exclusively as a killer, rather than as a victim herself.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:20   Link #255
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Overall, I'd say Ryukishi was trying to make a "whydunnit". We didn't know what happened. We didn't have any alibis for anyone. All we have is the motives, characters and situations of everyone on the island that day. As such... you can only work out who the killer is if you understand their heart.

Whether or not you think this was successful is up to you.


I'd say you're being a bit silly. Beatrice wrote the first 2 stories. She'll write about the people who influenced her, and characterising people according to her own knowledge. Even if we eliminate Ryukishi from the equation, there's a perfectly good reason why characters who don't matter would get no development.

In the 3rd episode onwards, it's written by amnesiac Battler. As far as I know he's going based on scraps of what he remembers and the stories by Beatrice. Therefore, once again... he'll focus on the people who matter.
The protagonist doesn't matter, i completely agree. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. You're giving credit to ryuukishi for your own generalizations. He's a good world builder, but he's not as much a genius as you're trying to make him out to be.

He lead us on a several year wild goose chase for the sake of making his ham-handed point about truth (which is stupid in this medium, and insulting in how he went about it), and that's the truth of the matter. He knows what his audience is, its common knowledge that he pays attention to his fanbase, so there really can't be any way to explain his intent other than that.

Ryuukishi thinks he's better than the mystery genre, than his readers, than the need for proofreading. What else is that other than hubris? Especially since he's mistaken on all there counts.

You're arguing that ryuukishi's a genius. I'm saying he's just mediocre, so tell me something: Where's the genius in Umineko? I don't see it. I see no reason to be impressed with what ryuukishi has done here.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:25   Link #256
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
What the hell, man? Of course it hasn't been my idea all along, at the beginning of Umineko I was busy trying to blame someone, just like everyone else. Then in EP4, I started to doubt whether or not finding the truth really was significant. When EP5 gave us a character who was basically the embodiment of evil for trying to find a solution, my suspicious were confirmed.

But just because I haven't been right all along doesn't mean my opinion doesn't hold water. I'm not trying to say "Look how superior I am! I've been right this whole time, and you've all been on a wild goose chase!" That's not the case at all, I've done my fair share of goose hunting.
Look at what you wrote. You just said that "we missed the point of Umineko pretty badly" for thinking that finding the culprit was the main objective.

I did not if there's one that has the right to say those words it's me, and it ticks me off that now people make such kind of claims after the facts.

But you recognize that you've been looking for a culprit in the beginning, and you know that everyone did the same. So you should choose your words differently else it looks like you are claiming that practically everyone missed the point completely.

Now you changed your mind? Why you say it only now? Give me something to shake this feeling that you just changed your mind because "God" has spoken.


Quote:
What I'm asking you to do is to step back and maybe see that maybe the culprit is not what is the most important thing to take from Umineko. Maybe it is instead the lessons about love, and tolerance, and forgiveness? Maybe the goose chase was just an excuse to show us something far more beautiful than any old goose could be?
Forgiveness?
How can I forgive someone without even knowing who is the sinner and what's the sin?
Ah! I'm ready to forgive anyone anytime, as long as they show their face and they show regret for their actions and the will to take responsibility.

I see nothing of that. Talking about forgiveness at these conditions is unacceptable.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:42   Link #257
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
The point of Erika wasn't to say, "All mystery fans are evil!". It was to say, "People who are so concerned about finding the truth that they're blind to the problems they cause are evil."
Sorry, I'm of the opinion that all people do things for reasons. Sure, there are bad people out there, but no one is 100% bad. Maybe mass murderers can't be forgiven, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand them. What Umineko does is take these extreme cases (mass murder, incest, rape), and show that even these people are human beings.

That, in my opinion, is far better, and far more beautiful than having Lion kill Kinzo for his crimes, or portraying Beatrice exclusively as a killer, rather than as a victim herself.
Except that Erika wasn't interested in finding the truth. She made up her own truth, then forced the evidence to support it, then covered up any evidence that couldn't be so forced.

Ordeal by Innocence (Christie) probably showed your point better.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:42   Link #258
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Forgiveness?
How can I forgive someone without even knowing who is the sinner and what's the sin?
Ah! I'm ready to forgive anyone anytime, as long as they show their face and they show regret for their actions and the will to take responsibility.

I see nothing of that. Talking about forgiveness at these conditions is unacceptable.
Or love someone you don't know? Or have tolerance for something that's none of our business? Granted understanding multiple points of view is a theme that's been around for a long time. It's clarified in episode 5, but it was clearly lamp shaded in episodes, interviews and essays before that. "Sure they're wrong, but that theory is still interesting" he'd say.

He clearly like to come up with deep themes for his stories, and that's not the worst thing in the world. It's just the vector he chose to deliver Umineko's message is a weird way to do it.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:43   Link #259
naikou
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
But you recognize that you've been looking for a culprit in the beginning, and you know that everyone did the same. So you should choose your words differently else it looks like you are claiming that practically everyone missed the point completely.
Everyone did miss the point, everyone was supposed to miss the point - in the beginning. Ryukishi set up us as detectives trying to combat the evil witch and solve the murder. He set us up with that line of thinking, so that he could show us how it is wrong in later episodes.

Later on, you are supposed to realize that there is no evil witch to combat, just a sad, mentally deranged girl, and that cruelly seeking the truth regardless of its consequences is actually not a good thing.

So if you're still trying to find the culprit, then you have missed the point of Umineko entirely. It's not about blaming someone, it's about understanding someone.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now you changed your mind? Why you say it only now? Give me something to shake this feeling that you just changed your mind because "God" has spoken.
How could I possibly prove that to you, and why do you care?

You insinuate that I am a mindless Ryukishi-fan who would worship Umineko regardless of its actual content? I say that I would not; there were many things about Umineko which I did not like (the beginning of EP2, the magic battles in EP3, the love trial in EP6).

But if you demand proof that I actually have a brain, well... I cannot prove that to you, I'm sorry. Feel free to ignore me if you find my opinions so worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
Forgiveness?
How can I forgive someone without even knowing who is the sinner and what's the sin?
Ah! I'm ready to forgive anyone anytime, as long as they show their face and they show regret for their actions and the will to take responsibility.

I see nothing of that. Talking about forgiveness at these conditions is unacceptable.
Well, don't forgive, then. Just move on. There are more important things in life than finding blame.
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Old 2011-03-20, 15:47   Link #260
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
The culprit really is not important. By not revealing it, Ryukishi says "Blaming someone was not the point of my work, and I don't want anyone to think that it ever was." He wrote a story about compassion and tolerance, not assigning blame. That's what the story has been about since EP4 onward. Sometimes it is better to leave the truth unknown.
No, it isn't. If you believe that, you are pretty much in tacit support of evil in the world.

And if anyone "thinks that it ever was" important, it's because Ryukishi himself MADE IT IMPORTANT. People did not pluck this idea idiotically out of thin air. It's important because he created the impression that an injustice may have been done. It is evil to say "eh, but if it was, it doesn't matter to Ange so it doesn't matter to anyone."

Gohda's Mom Problem. Stop giving a bad resolution a pass because you don't care.
Quote:
I think if your main concern is about finding the "true culprit", then you've missed the point of Umineko rather badly. But what do I know, I'm just a silly armchair philosopher.
Yeah, what do you know, again? if it's the point that you've got in your mind, by all means explain it to me because I clearly didn't "get it."
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
...If you actually were in Ange's position, I don't think it'd be an entirely bad thing to put it to the back of your mind and move on with your life. It doesn't mean you've forgiven the criminal or Kinzo... you're just using "magic" so that your life isn't destroyed even more than it needs to be.
Other people exist besides Ange.
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
The point of Erika wasn't to say, "All mystery fans are evil!". It was to say, "People who are so concerned about finding the truth that they're blind to the problems they cause are evil."
You are blind to the injustice which may have existed. You are allowing evil to succeed (well, not exactly as you can't influence the novel's world, but your position is morally reprehensible). Doesn't exactly make you any better.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Forgiveness?
How can I forgive someone without even knowing who is the sinner and what's the sin?
Ah! I'm ready to forgive anyone anytime, as long as they show their face and they show regret for their actions and the will to take responsibility.

I see nothing of that. Talking about forgiveness at these conditions is unacceptable.
God, a million times this. Nobody gets forgiveness until they admit what they did and that it was wrong. As far as we even know, Beatrice wasn't guilty of anything, so she doesn't even have to be forgiven for a murder if there was one. But somebody is. They can't be forgiven or condemned if that information is unknown.

"Well some things are unknowable!"

Okay, then evil won in Umineko. Evil. Won. And nobody cares because Beatrice and Battler were too selfish, because Eva was too selfish, because Ange was too selfish. Because no one actually cares about anyone but themselves. You ever notice how selfish and possessive so much of the "love" in Umineko is? Hell, Yasu's love for Battler seems almost hopelessly selfish. The only person who loved unconditionally was Maria and we all see where that got her.

So yeah, I can't condemn the culprit, but I guess I can condemn all the protagonists. They're terrible, terrible people. They are indirect agents of the culprit (presuming, again, there was one, and if there wasn't that should be known) and they ensured his or her victory.

There's your precious "moral." Money and greed blind a person to the truth. Love blinds people just as hard. That may not be what he's saying directly, but that's what the text actually shows: Love and truth are in direct opposition in Ryukishi's mind.

What a deplorable state of affairs.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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