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Old 2011-03-20, 17:02   Link #281
Renall
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
I don't see why it "should" be? Who says it should be?
Perhaps you should think about that. The fact that you don't appear to know makes it very difficult for me to discuss anything with you.

As much as I'd love to go on a long tangent about moral philosophy (and perhaps it would be better to PM me about it if you wished to), I simply can't unless I can understand the philosophical framework upon which you base your decisions about moral acts. As far as I know, you don't have one. If I'm wrong, feel free to illuminate me, but we are drifting somewhat off-topic, and the thread probably doesn't need that.
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Do you not see the purpose behind my hypothetical, though? There are situations where revealing the truth can only lead to bad consequences. It is not an absolute that "The truth must be revealed!"
The existence of potentially bad consequences do not cease to make an action morally desirable. Being punished sucks, hurts your feelings, and may restrict your freedom or cause you physical harm. That doesn't mean it isn't right at times.

There are situations which may justify delaying revelation of the truth. However, there is never a situation which justifies supplanting truth with a lie, even temporarily. At times, immediate pursuit of the truth may have negative consequences which necessitate its delay. However, there is simply no such thing as a situation which demands indefinite and eternal concealment. Ever.
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:20   Link #282
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Originally Posted by naikou View Post
The point of Erika wasn't to say, "All mystery fans are evil!". It was to say, "People who are so concerned about finding the truth that they're blind to the problems they cause are evil."
That's your interpretation of what Erika was supposed to represent. To me, Ryuukishi's condescending tone and essay make me think otherwise.

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Sorry, I'm of the opinion that all people do things for reasons. Sure, there are bad people out there, but no one is 100% bad. Maybe mass murderers can't be forgiven, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand them. What Umineko does is take these extreme cases (mass murder, incest, rape), and show that even these people are human beings.

That, in my opinion, is far better, and far more beautiful than having Lion kill Kinzo for his crimes, or portraying Beatrice exclusively as a killer, rather than as a victim herself.
You don't need to pick an extreme. You don't need to kill someone over a mistake, but you also don't need to forgive them.

Ryuukishi's lesson is flawed. He didn't show us any reason we should want to forgive other than him preaching that forgiveness is good. Why, we don't even know what we should forgive the culprit of!

What's his response to that?

"WITHOUT LOVE IT CANNOT BE SEEN!"

...Yes real mature Ryu.

Without getting in the nature of how valid his lesson might be, he just did it badly. Really badly. His fanbase loves to be trolled, which gives him a pass in being inconsistent.
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:26   Link #283
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Are we really having a "overall game impressions" discussion, or a mere debate over the intention of the author and whatnot?

I'm sorry, but at this point, I have to bring up again on the guideline I was insisting from the very beginning:

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Also, considering the ending and even the nature of the story being debatable, please do not start any fruitless debate whatsoever: everyone is entitled to their opinions, so insisting on personal points and the likes towards your peers will not be condoned. Regardless how you have enjoyed the franchise, do not start imposing your view and expectations to others, and more importantly: do not derail the topic into endless jousting.
I do not expect people to wholeheartedly agree that the franchise was great or bad. However, it would be really better to just -drop- the discussion, when things turn into "it is YOUR interpretation", leading to just an escalating fruitless argument that leaves nothing but a circle discussion over a matter of personal tastes and whatnot.

It is getting extremely tiresome to keeping track with the threads, considering that most are being derailed by the same arguments over and over.
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:28   Link #284
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Continued via PM, although I fear that will destroy the openness of the discussion. Oh well.
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:33   Link #285
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Klashikari raises a very good point. There are other places for this discussion to take place, after all.

And I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion in a more appropriate location myself, either.
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Old 2011-03-20, 17:52   Link #286
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There are other places set up for those discussions, so let's take them there and be done with it.
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Old 2011-03-21, 14:29   Link #287
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Hm I think this would be the right thread to say this, sorry if it isn't.

I've been realizing I find Umineko's ending not to be very surprising of a Visual Novel in the end. In fact I still somehow find it less depressing an ending then most VNs I read.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:15   Link #288
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It's true, depression and melodrama are common, but bear in mind that very happy endings are also pretty common. It's like a switch instead of a dial. You either get full-on depressing, bittersweet, or happy, and there are only a small handful of examples in between.

It might also appear that way simply because a lot of VNs have choices that lead to "bad" endings, which may not be bad but may be more of a downer than the "right" ones. Relatively few (but certainly not no) VNs have all endings roughly the same in tone.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2011-03-21, 15:45   Link #289
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Well I haven't really seen all out happy Visual Novels except dating sims or similar stories. Bad endings are fun cause they can be subjectively bad (School Days lol).

I'm thinking tho that Ryuukishi promised us a "bittersweet ending" while we got what is closer to a "depressing ending" (no matter how positive you can view Ange's final resolution it doesn't change that most people are dead and stays so). That might be hurting expectations a lot.

Still I see Beatrice more and more as Kinzo's Kaguya-Hime and somehow I'm not surprised to have the sort of story Umineko is in the end. Including the lack of moral resolution that you seem to dislike so much.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:53   Link #290
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I think the saddest part of the ending is the fact that while Battler is still alive he became another person and doesn't even want to return to his older self, which means he can't be Ange's brother.

From one side it's comforting for Ange to know that Battler is alive and... (not so well actually...) but in the end her "Oniichan" didn't come back and never will.

It's very sad, but yes there's been sadder stuff.
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Old 2011-03-21, 15:55   Link #291
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Thing is I (and some others) referenced the Bittersweet ending as if it was synonymous with a Downer ending. And that turned out to mostly be the correct interpretation.

That's not true of actual bittersweet endings of course. It's supposed to be Bitter AND sweet, but I guess Umineko's ending was mostly bitter.
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Old 2011-03-21, 17:50   Link #292
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I...don't see a lot of sweetness. Unless you find it sweet that Ange fills the void in her life by providing a Beato-cult home for orphaned children.

I actually find that to be progressively greater degrees of creepy and sad.
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Old 2011-03-21, 18:17   Link #293
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I don't understand how you got from "writing a successful children's book series based on Mariage Sorciere and making some orphans happy" to "supporting a Beato cult".

Let me put it this way. How would you interpret that scene if I replaced Ange with J. K. Rowling and the Umineko cast with Harry Potter characters?
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-03-21 at 18:31.
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Old 2011-03-21, 18:19   Link #294
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I don't find it particularly depressing, they are all reunited in the Golden Land in the end.
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Old 2011-03-21, 19:23   Link #295
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I don't understand how you got from "writing a successful children's book series based on Mariage Sorciere and making some orphans happy" to "supporting a Beato cult".

Let me put it this way. How would you interpret that scene if I replaced Ange with J. K. Rowling and the Umineko cast with Harry Potter characters?
You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.

But I took too long and the damn forum signed me out when I went to post it, and erased all my freacking effort. So you'll get nothing, and I'll get a great deal of frustration.
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Old 2011-03-21, 19:26   Link #296
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Originally Posted by Chron View Post
You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.

But I took too long and the damn forum signed me out when I went to post it, and erased all my freacking effort. So you'll get nothing, and I'll get a great deal of frustration.
Aww. You can't get it back from your browser history?
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Old 2011-03-21, 19:31   Link #297
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Public computers don't allow me to access the browser history, since I lack administrative privileges, or something.
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Old 2011-03-21, 19:34   Link #298
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Whenever you write a long post it's a good idea to copy and paste all that you just wrote before pressing any button.
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Old 2011-03-21, 19:41   Link #299
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I finally found Trollkastel's Episode 8 uploads on youtube, so I was a biiiiit distracted, and then had a lapse in judgement.

Writing down the various songs to download later on my phone takes time, especially when listening through them all individually and deciding which are worth downloading (lixAxel and co.) and which are not (Ange's theme song).

I eagerly await the day I learn how to rip the music files from my copy of the game...
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Old 2011-03-21, 19:57   Link #300
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You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.
They just rebuilt a hall. She didn't actually rebuild the mansion and have kids live there. It's no more creepy than designing a mess room that looks like the gathering room at Hogwarts for a bunch of underprivileged kids.

Having a painting is no indication of a cult to someone's personality. It's just a decoration.
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