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Old 2011-03-23, 01:16   Link #22381
Kylon99
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As far as I remember, Evangelion was just as controversial as people are making Umineko out to be, implying that there was some greed on Ryukishi's part. IIRC, ep 25 and 26 were just as inconclusive to the plot of Evangelion, though it addressed Shinji's personal development. When they came out with the movie people decried it as greed on Gainax's part to 'make you go watch the movie.'

When people aren't satisfied it leads some to question people's motives. In the worst cases they'll ascribe bad intentions to actions that they have no real way of knowing. As if they were psychic. And if you then satisfy their answers with a follow up; well then that's just greed.


Umineko itself did cause us to think quite hard though. But if you look at how it went it seemed to me to be more about a discussion of mystery than an actual mystery itself. For example, the idea someone would come in to save Battler and thus maintain the closed room in EP6 was a nice way of presenting that idea to me. People do not need to come up with ideas no one else have thought of before; they can be merely introducing us to a genre or a concept. It will necessarily bore people who are 'experts' in the field, however.

But then there were a number of things that we had to think about that were applicable to the mystery in Umineko. Specifically, things like the Epitaph Puzzle itself, the Epitaph fakery, the Dead-Kinzo plot, the 10th Twilight... and a number of other things that weren't related to the mystery but were a puzzle none-the-less. Like the Author Theory.


Anyways, if people are worried that there will never be answers... I'm sure history will repeat itself. IIRC, Anno Hideaki was pestered a lot about the story until he was forced to make the Evangelion movie? So don't worry, someone will be stalking Ryukishi. :3
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Old 2011-03-23, 03:16   Link #22382
AuraTwilight
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The Evangelion movie ended up being a bigger and even more unsatisfying troll than the original ending he provided, though.

"Oh, you want answers? HERE'S A GIANT NAKED REI WITH VAGINAS ALL OVER HER BODY AND SHE MELTS AND EVERYONE EXPLODES AND SHINJI CUMS ALL OVER A COMATOSE ASUKA."

...Oh my god if Umineko Rei is anything like that I will be so so so fucking happy.
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Old 2011-03-23, 04:50   Link #22383
aldeayeah
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Anyone with any credentials in psychology wouldn't be able to convict Yasu with murderous intent. The girl goes to over-the-top ends of seeing the best in anyone, she's too timid to work up the courage to make a phone call, doesn't believe she has the power to change anything, and her fantasies are all about cheering her up instead of satisying revenge scenarios. Not to mention we're supposed to feel sympathy for her, and yet we're not given any good reason why she'd just decide to kill everyone. We're given plenty of reasons of why she'd kill herself, but nothing provides the "DERP DERP BLOW EVERYONE TO SMITHEREENS" switch.
I don't know if anyone has raised this point, but motivation and execution-wise, Shakatrice is very similar to

Spoiler for Tsukihime's Far Side routes:

I do think RK found some inspiration there.

Last edited by aldeayeah; 2011-03-23 at 12:05.
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Old 2011-03-23, 07:46   Link #22384
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I do think RK found some inspiration there.
Apparently Ryukishi and Nasu know each other, so well, it could be true.


About Ryukishi, I will not go so far as paint him black like working out for greed. Umineko is more or less an experimental work on his side. Avid readers might find that his ideals are not that innovative, but to doujin-circle world, it's truly very different. (I don't remember seeing any visual novel worth writing an essay about like this one, critically or not) As a writer, he might just try to do what he want to do, and it's not his fault that his concept require a better execution. It might be just my impression, but I would still praise the guy for trying.

Well, and I would be sure to follow his next work. Whatever it is, the guy proves that he could provide something interesting.
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Old 2011-03-23, 08:20   Link #22385
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Originally Posted by Chron View Post
On the other hand, I may not be thinking clearly at the moment due to food poisoning, and have forgotten some possibilities.
The whole story is a thinly-veiled love letter to BT, and Ryukishi's attitude toward the genre and his own work is reflected in the personage of Beatrice: Initially enthusiastic, gradually overcome by a terrible realization, unable to continue and losing steam, halfheartedly brought back, laid to rest... and then an angry explosion at people who just don't understand what he's had to go through at the end, followed by the realization that he has to move on.

He never cared what you think because he wasn't doing it for you.

Granted, I also haven't slept in three days, and I'm a little woozy, and I'm on antihistamines, and this room is too hot, and my collar is too tight, and I don't like the color of this tie, and the fluorescent lighting in this room is flickering just slightly, but it seems like a valid interpretation.
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Old 2011-03-23, 10:39   Link #22386
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The whole story is a thinly-veiled love letter to BT, and Ryukishi's attitude toward the genre and his own work is reflected in the personage of Beatrice: Initially enthusiastic, gradually overcome by a terrible realization, unable to continue and losing steam, halfheartedly brought back, laid to rest... and then an angry explosion at people who just don't understand what he's had to go through at the end, followed by the realization that he has to move on.
I know you are just joking Renall...but...it makes sense!
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Old 2011-03-23, 12:37   Link #22387
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
If you want satisfy Knox's 8th you do. And I'm basically invoking Occam's razor on the unneeded assumption that you need any drugs at all to make this murder work.
Knox's 8th calls for clues, not an unbroken chain of evidence. The clues (more than for ShKanontrice) I cite are :
  1. Kinzo's extensive grimoires, which would almost certainly have mentioned "witches' weeds" and their use in potions,
  2. Battler experiencing distorted reality while Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa were talking about Beatrice in EP1,
  3. Eva and Hideyoshi dying in a relaxed state (on the bed and in the bathtub) as if drugged,
  4. Evidence the victims in the chapel had been eating, where a fatal dose would explain how they could have been killed at roughly the same time without much blood when cut open in EP2
  5. The possibility of drugs being raised by Rosa in EP2,
  6. Rosa portrayed as experiencing delirium and the sensation of flying before being killed (symptoms of scopolamine and datura) in EP3,
  7. Eva's complaints about delusions in EP3,
  8. Kinzo appearing after the dinner, contrary to his usual practice (where the victims could have consumed drugs) in EP4,
  9. Battler supposedly getting calls from Jessica and Kyrie telling him to accept anything magical he sees (not fight an hallucination) in EP4,
  10. Maria seeming killed by some poison in EP4
  11. The author mentioning devil's trumpet and angel's trumpet in The Seven Sisters' Valentine. (I'd actually come up with the idea of scopolamine before, then I saw those plants listed as containing it and remembered the story.)

The plants aren't rare and are distributed worldwide, even considered as weeds. Rokkenjima's version of a garbage dump should have some devil's trumpet. If a pharmaceutical version of them was needed, Nanjo could have provided it.

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Sherlock Holmes wasn't fair play. He dates before the concept of fair play mysteries came up.
But was his deduction fair by Knox's rules? If you don't like that example, how about Agatha Christie, namely her mystery The Pale Horse? (Spoilers for novel at link.) Reflecting the tone of the supernatural novels by Dennis Wheatley, involving mysterious deaths attributed to witches, it was probably almost as big an inspiration as And Then There Were None.
Spoiler for Spoiler for novel:

Last edited by neutrino; 2011-03-23 at 12:45. Reason: spelling
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Old 2011-03-23, 12:44   Link #22388
neutrino
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The Evangelion movie ended up being a bigger and even more unsatisfying troll than the original ending he provided, though.

"Oh, you want answers? HERE'S A GIANT NAKED REI WITH VAGINAS ALL OVER HER BODY AND SHE MELTS AND EVERYONE EXPLODES AND SHINJI CUMS ALL OVER A COMATOSE ASUKA."

...Oh my god if Umineko Rei is anything like that I will be so so so fucking happy.
Are you hoping for a Rebuild of Umineko?
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Old 2011-03-23, 14:19   Link #22389
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No, a Rebuild of Umineko would just have Battler going "AAAAAANGGGGEEEEEEEEE" and punching through the universe so they can have sex inside of a mecha-Beatrice.
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Old 2011-03-23, 14:29   Link #22390
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Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
I don't know if anyone has raised this point, but motivation and execution-wise, Shakatrice is very similar to

Spoiler for Tsukihime's Far Side routes:

I do think RK found some inspiration there.
Well, R07 is a big Tsukihime fan, and he doesn't really try to hide it. (Chie sensei )
Spoiler for Higurashi and Tsukihime:
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Old 2011-03-23, 14:57   Link #22391
Chron
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Granted, I also haven't slept in three days, and I'm a little woozy, and I'm on antihistamines, and this room is too hot, and my collar is too tight, and I don't like the color of this tie, and the fluorescent lighting in this room is flickering just slightly, but it seems like a valid interpretation.
Now that's unfair, i get food poisoning at least twice a month from my own cooking...
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Old 2011-03-23, 15:30   Link #22392
Shirozaki
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Well, R07 is a big Tsukihime fan, and he doesn't really try to hide it. (Chie sensei )
Spoiler for Higurashi and Tsukihime:
To be fair, he tried to keep the Type-Moon references to a minimum in this work (obviously not in Higurashi, I mean...)

Spoiler for Type-Moon:


I'd say any Yasu/Kohaku parallel is either coincidence or subconsciously implemented at best.

If you're looking for RK fanboyiism then touhou is your bet, some are subtle some are...obviously not.
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Old 2011-03-23, 17:30   Link #22393
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But was his deduction fair by Knox's rules?
Almost never, in my experience. Knox 8 requires the detective to produce every clue he finds to the reader, and Sherlock breaks that rule constantly in the course of being his smug asshole self. The stories also violate Knox 1 with some regularity, and 5, 6, and 10 in individual cases.

Once in a while a Sherlock story ends up being fair play after all, but after being burned so many times I always go in with an anti-mystery sort of expectation by default.
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Old 2011-03-24, 07:56   Link #22394
neutrino
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No, a Rebuild of Umineko would just have Battler going "AAAAAANGGGGEEEEEEEEE" and punching through the universe so they can have sex inside of a mecha-Beatrice.
You say that like it's a bad thing. (Wouldn't it be sex with Beatrice inside a mecha-Ange?)
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Old 2011-03-24, 13:11   Link #22395
AuraTwilight
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No, because at this point with Ushiromiya geneology, Beatrice is probably Battler's mother.
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Old 2011-03-24, 13:39   Link #22396
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Huh, I thought that was the one thing she probably isn't.
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Old 2011-03-24, 15:36   Link #22397
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Huh, I thought that was the one thing she probably isn't.
You'd think that, but theories like that still exist. I think AT's just messing around.
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Old 2011-03-24, 16:32   Link #22398
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Pretty much. Besides, Ange has to be Rei because Rei is Shinji's sister-sorta-kinda.
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Old 2011-03-25, 07:51   Link #22399
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Almost never, in my experience. Knox 8 requires the detective to produce every clue he finds to the reader, and Sherlock breaks that rule constantly in the course of being his smug asshole self. The stories also violate Knox 1 with some regularity, and 5, 6, and 10 in individual cases.

Once in a while a Sherlock story ends up being fair play after all, but after being burned so many times I always go in with an anti-mystery sort of expectation by default.
I meant the specific story, The Adventure of the Speckled Band, which does play fair and is a good example of acceptable clues under Knox and Van Dine.
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Old 2011-03-25, 09:21   Link #22400
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Are the events with Ange in 1998 considered to take place in "Rokkenjima Prime"? Is it confirmed?

Are there any theories on why Ange's scene on Rokkenjima, was changed from the game to the anime, with the supposedly resurrected Eva's gun exploding and Ange finishing her off? It didn't save time or soften the character, so it seems like Ryu07 deliberately changed it.
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