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Old 2011-03-24, 11:10   Link #1241
Justin_Brett
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Well think about it. The only people they typically fight are noncombatants and red shirts: not exactly people you can hone real skill on. Supporting that is how Cypha nearly crapped herself those two times Signum cornered her - she didn't expect a magic user to be that skilled, because they're supposed to be helpless against them.

The only one who's really displayed any subtleties in-battle is Deville.
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Old 2011-03-24, 11:50   Link #1242
Arcc
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Hey, Nanoha hasn't had an opponent that could give her a truly dangerous head-on fight since the beginning of A's. Hayate hasn't had one. . . period. Their last opponent was an Sovereign-class Star Destroyer. Before that, it was Cthulhu's little sister.

I think that love 'em or hate 'em, the Hucks are the enemy this series needs. We've all seen the fanart of Nanoha blowing up a planet, and I think you'll agree that that's the wrong next step for the series. The Hucks are a challenge that Nanoha hasn't seen before, and the fanbase is questioning whether her hot-blooded befriending will be good enough. The point is that we're worried about Nanoha & co. again. And for that, I applaud the writer.

Spoiler for The answer to the implied question:
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Last edited by Arcc; 2011-03-24 at 12:01.
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Old 2011-03-24, 12:03   Link #1243
Akiyoshi
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I think that love 'em or hate 'em, the Hucks are the enemy this series needs.
The point is that there are much better options than those guys. Why they can't be at least more stoic or uhm "dignified"? It's such a necessity for the plot to make (most of)the Huckebein into insufferable dicks? Probably that's the second thing i despise the most about them(the first is the cheap anti-magic), a lot of examples exist about villains curbstomping the heroes but still being cool and imponent at doing it, they don't need words because they know they're cool, or if they use words it will only be a brief speech of "you're not strong enough to face me right now", what's the necessity of laughing/singing into the heroes faces and pointing repeatedly how useless they are?

The world may never know.
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Old 2011-03-24, 12:13   Link #1244
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Which is exactly more or less the way Cypha portrayed those powers in her battle with Signum.
That gets a pass because it was the introductory battle. It's purpose was to display what the Eclipse could do. Since then, they've stuck to the rules established during that fight.

Anyways, in the end if you've got a negative opinion of the Huckebein in your head, you will see everything they do as bad. In the same way, those who see them in a positive light will find a way to explain their actions.
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Old 2011-03-24, 12:26   Link #1245
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That gets a pass because it was the introductory battle. It's purpose was to display what the Eclipse could do. Since then, they've stuck to the rules established during that fight.
Except for some fortunate exceptions, Deville teleport ability seems to be exclusive of him and makes for nasty surprises about what the heroes supossedly know about them. Curren is a total bully, but at least she shows her prowess by destroying two anti-anti-magic weapons with a katana and breaks the setting again by unleashing her book, a wepon so strong that is able to defeat two elites in an instant. Still, even after their powers gets stablished, the efforts to counter them proven to be pretty futile at the moment(even the hyped Fortress Mode failed the task).

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Anyways, in the end if you've got a negative opinion of the Huckebein in your head, you will see everything they do as bad. In the same way, those who see them in a positive light will find a way to explain their actions.
Well, yeah, the first and second impression are pretty bad to me. Veyron VS. Tohma was mostly uninmpressive to my eyes and the fact that at the moment i didn't know a thing about him beyond "why on earth is Squall Lionheart fighting this kid?" only leaves me even more confused. My opinion on Cypha didn't count since it's mercilessly biased by my Signum fanboyism so i'm not gonna expand on that xD.
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Old 2011-03-24, 12:32   Link #1246
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Except for some fortunate exceptions, Deville teleport ability seems to be exclusive of him and makes for nasty surprises about what the heroes supossedly know about them. Curren is a total bully, but at least she shows her prowess by destroying two anti-anti-magic weapons with a katana and breaks the setting again by unleashing her book, a wepon so strong that is able to defeat two elites in an instant.
Right, but those are individual skills, not stuff granted by the virus.
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Old 2011-03-24, 12:34   Link #1247
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Right, but those are individual skills, not stuff granted by the virus.
the Katana probably not but we didn't know about the teleport and the Book. What if more advanced stages of the infection gives them individual powers xD?

inb4 Stella will develop the ability to speak spanish and talk with animals while Arnage will gain an ice breath xD.
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Old 2011-03-24, 12:49   Link #1248
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So you've said. The lines are pretty well drawn on this debate, which is why I'm only weighing in with my opinion on the matter once. Frankly, I don't like the Hucks much either; they've been real dog-kickers. But if we can argue about the nature of Eclipse this much, it's plain we're missing some data.

If nothing else though, as enemies, they're pretty solid. We never saw anybody get ten feet inside of Hayate's attack range in the whole of StrikerS. But let's look at it this way: we really should have. Is it really too much to think that there are individuals powerful enough to stand up to the power trio? They have exceptional talent, but for the most part they are still normal enough that they could have their share of high-powered equals. The Hucks happen to have a condition that puts them into that category, or a bit above. I wouldn't call it overpowered so much as. . . well, I don't have a proper term immediately in hand, but I still wouldn't call it that.

Well, even if I say all of this, I'm not a fan of zero-sum back-and-forth arguments, and I agree with main points of both sides anyway. Yes, the Hucks are rather nasty fellows, and it's hard to defend much about them. But I believe that the soul of the series won't be broken. I don't know where the story will go or how it will conclude any more than you do. I just don't expect to be disappointed. Like I said, have some faith in our heroine.
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Old 2011-03-24, 13:05   Link #1249
Akiyoshi
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Like I said, have some faith in our heroine.
Or in our hero, remember that Tohma is the protagonist here, not Nanoha. If anything, he's the only one with real chances of fight and defeat a Huckebein. Nanoha got defeated by him and ends near trounced(Subaru, Isis and Fate came to save the day). From now on things will probably lead to Tohma learning to control his monstruous powers in order to stop the Huckebein from "hurting themselves"(we're doomed to see some of the Hucks receive sypatethic treatement since the moment Tohma thanks them before his departure xDU.

My bet is on the heroes defeating the other hucks while Tohma confronts Curren or the true Big Bad of the season(leaving Curren to the entire Yagami family or the Aces Trio), and an ending similar to StrikerS but with the heroes ganging up on the villains (as Tohma fight show to us, it's the only effective way to deal with these people xD).
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Old 2011-03-24, 13:32   Link #1250
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Nanoha's still a heroine though. Not really the main heroine, but a heroine none-the-less.

Also, I highly doubt that any of the Huckebein will be the big bad or final boss. They've proven themselves a threat, sure, but not a very active one. There's no ambition to them. They just want to coast quietly through life without too much trouble. A big bad needs a grand scheme, an end goal that needs to be stopped. The Hucks don't have one of those.
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Old 2011-03-24, 13:46   Link #1251
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If there is a big bad, then its the one that infected them originally, I gather. (its what I'm doing hehe)
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Old 2011-03-24, 13:51   Link #1252
Justin_Brett
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You know what I hope they won't do?

Introduce a character who wants to kill the Hucks, for like revenge or something, and have the characters go 'oh, no, that's wrong!'

Also, Arcc, Vivio. If you have to duplicate your strongest move six times to defeat someone, they're a pretty good opponent.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:05   Link #1253
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You know what I hope they won't do?

Introduce a character who wants to kill the Hucks, for like revenge or something, and have the characters go 'oh, no, that's wrong!'
They played with that with Thoma already.

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Also, Arcc, Vivio. If you have to duplicate your strongest move six times to defeat someone, they're a pretty good opponent.
Not necessarily. In Vivio's case Nanoha didn't need to go that far to defeat Vivio, but she had to go that far to get past Vivio's armour and overload the Relic to turn her back to normal.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:07   Link #1254
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Someone who ACTUALLY had a loved one be killed by them.

And that's the same thing, really.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:08   Link #1255
Akiyoshi
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If there is a big bad, then its the one that infected them originally, I gather. (its what I'm doing hehe)
This make curren a bit more suspicious don't you think? She's clearly the main founder of the "Huckebein Family" beign Named Currend Huckebein instead of "XX of Huckebein" like the others(there is also the mistery about Stella's last name). While Fortis is "the brains" of the group(or se we readed) the true plans and motives are machined by Curren herself, they don't question her instructions and apparently she's the only one on active duty(brought back "good news" for them). If they aren't the big bad, i put my money on Curren being related to said person in some way or at least knowing of him/her.

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You know what I hope they won't do?

Introduce a character who wants to kill the Hucks, for like revenge or something, and have the characters go 'oh, no, that's wrong!'
Oh god! hope that didn't occur xDU. more excuses to give sympathy points to these guys, i can see Tohma actually aiding the Hucks for no other reason than "hate people is bad".

Whathever the big bad will be, i hope it appears AFTER some Hucks get his comeupance, the heroes deserve a fair victory for once xDU.

EDIT:

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Not necessarily. In Vivio's case Nanoha didn't need to go that far to defeat Vivio, but she had to go that far to get past Vivio's armour and overload the Relic to turn her back to normal.
And that's because she was fighting a hopeless battle against a reanimated Belkan Emperor which require her to use Blaster-3 which means she's basically killing herself in order to just stand to the Sankt Kaiser's might. Starlight Breaker x5 was meant to disable the relic and effecitvely end the threat as apparently it's the only thing Nanoha can do to defeat her. Note that the fight was so hard that Nanoha sustain after-battle consequences. Nanoha make a tradition of fighting super-powered, brainwashed/confused/possesed, demigod people.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:16   Link #1256
Arcc
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Ah, I thought of a good phrasing. The Hucks aren't overpowered, they're "differently-enabled." :P
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:33   Link #1257
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Someone who ACTUALLY had a loved one be killed by them.

And that's the same thing, really.
Damn, now I want to watch Once Upon A Time in the West again.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:43   Link #1258
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I'm sorry guys, but... Vivio uses some crazy ability to fight Nanoha and you call her a worthy opponent, but when the Huckebein use crazy abilities to fight the others you say they're cheating? Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

Anyways, I've said this before but I look at the Huckebein as people who do bad things, but not necessarily bad people.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:47   Link #1259
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It's kinda sad how this thread's pretty much devolved into "bitch about the Huckebein".
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:48   Link #1260
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I wasn't even really talking about that, just pointing out that Vivio was an opponent that matched Nanoha. Hell, even before that, Reinforce was schooling her.

And hopefully we'll be able to talk about something else once the manga stops rubbing our faces in them for the moment.
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