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Old 2011-03-24, 14:49   Link #1261
00-Raiser
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Those are often the same thing. Strength makes anyone weaker look pathetic.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:53   Link #1262
Justin_Brett
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Okay, let me put that in another way.

Say you fight a martial artist who has trained his entire life. When the fight begins, you pull out a gun and off his kneecap. You'd certainly win by doing this, but no-one would appreciate it much.
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Old 2011-03-24, 14:57   Link #1263
itanshi1
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Heh and you claim guns are an anti martial arts technique. I assure you, missiles, shotguns and sniper rifles maybe, hand gun? not always. Martial artists are fast.

Basically its just an argument of tactics, but its been pointed out that this team is not the best team they could have put together.
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Old 2011-03-24, 15:03   Link #1264
TheRainbowConnection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Okay, let me put that in another way.

Say you fight a martial artist who has trained his entire life. When the fight begins, you pull out a gun and off his kneecap. You'd certainly win by doing this, but no-one would appreciate it much.
Sure, if you came for a good martial arts fight. Of course, the Hucks take a bit more of a "gloves-off" approach and have little interest in abiding by the rules of a structured martial arts competition. It's not the fight that makes them interesting; it's their motivations for fighting and relationships within themselves. So in that sense, I do appreciate them. You (and others) clearly don't. Ergo, we have ourselves 64 pages' worth of "rage at the Huckebein" in this thread and god only knows how many hundreds of pages in the thread before the split.
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Old 2011-03-24, 15:06   Link #1265
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So there are martial arts tournaments where they use firearms? Or to use a more apt comparison, magic tournaments where they employ AMF Generators?

I kind of resent the implication that I'm bitching about great characters here if I do. Because I'm not.
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Old 2011-03-24, 15:23   Link #1266
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
I'm sorry guys, but... Vivio uses some crazy ability to fight Nanoha and you call her a worthy opponent, but when the Huckebein use crazy abilities to fight the others you say they're cheating? Am I the only one who sees a problem here?
It's not like that, we aren't justify Vivio, after all she didn't even have full control of her actions(does that rings a bell to you guys?) and backed upo by a system that empowers her with an ancient Belkan armor and the power of an entire Mystical Warship, so yeah pretty much Vivio is cheating. But the real point is that Vivio really put Nanoha in very real danger of defeat/death by virtue of being more powerfull than her(well, sorta, the AMF is still into play, tough), Nanoha keep up raising Blaster levels just to avoid being crushed, finally at Blaster-3 they seem to be more or less matched, except for the Fact that Vivio has near limitless power while Nanoha is burning herself to pull off such kickass powers,and, at the end, she end up using her most devastating attack multiplied by 5, and sustain lasting consequences from the fight.

Nanoha wins, but not in the easy way you implied before. Now she wasn't able to defeat Tohma(her new toys got destroyed one-by-one), and the only lasting damage the boy sustains is his divider's broked blade courtesy of Subaru.

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Basically its just an argument of tactics, but its been pointed out that this team is not the best team they could have put together.
Well, by this point the manga already stated that "fighting fair is for loosers", just like it was mentioned, the Hucks are not interested in proving themselves or defend their honor, they just want food/survive and don't give a damn about how they will accomplish that. As for the heroes, nearly all forms of heroism get subverted by this point:

*Tohma/Heroic Resolve: Failed against Veyron, despite managing to activate his armour Vyeron still beat the crap out of him.
*Signum/Knight In Shinning Armour: FAIL, honor and justice doesen't mean a thing in front of a reacted Eclipse Driver.
*Fate - Subaru - Erio/Let's get dangerous: Despite the new toys the Hucks fight them while giggling as usual.
*Hayate/Heroic Second Wind: Turned into a simple "Hope Spot" by Curren xDU.
*Nanoha/Super Prototype/Mid-Season Upgrade: While powerfull, the Fortress Mode didn't do a thing to Tohma and when the guy became serious it got reduced to a pile of scrap.

In contrast there are various "Big Damn Heroes" moments pulled succesffully by the heroes, but their first real uhm "victory" came when the remaining heroes gang up on Tohma(and with Lily's reaction that wasn't even confirmed yet). So yeah, the only way of winning here is to fight dirty tactics with more dirty tactics.
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Old 2011-03-24, 16:39   Link #1267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
So there are martial arts tournaments where they use firearms? Or to use a more apt comparison, magic tournaments where they employ AMF Generators?

I kind of resent the implication that I'm bitching about great characters here if I do. Because I'm not.
Didn't mention a tournament, there's no honor in the match ups, just conflict, skirmishes
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Old 2011-03-24, 16:46   Link #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
But the real point is that Vivio really put Nanoha in very real danger of defeat/death by virtue of being more powerfull than her
Isn't that exactly what the Huckebein are doing?

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
In contrast there are various "Big Damn Heroes" moments pulled succesffully by the heroes, but their first real uhm "victory" came when the remaining heroes gang up on Tohma(and with Lily's reaction that wasn't even confirmed yet). So yeah, the only way of winning here is to fight dirty tactics with more dirty tactics.
I don't know about you, but I appreciate an injection of realism in my fiction.
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:14   Link #1269
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Isn't that exactly what the Huckebein are doing?
Except they aren't more pwoerfull, just have a method of cancelling opposition powers and none of them has showed anything more impressive than the previous seasons yet(save for Curren and Deville). They pose a treath, and are very deathly with their Eclipse powers but combat-wise they apparently are not that great. If not for the anti-magic, by this point the main cast would be able to pull a "Roy Mustang" on at least one of them. Even on equal conditions the Wolkies posed a treath to team Nanoha, but because of the virus "rules" an equal condition here will be imposible, just we need to see how Section Six will break the setting to defeat the hucks in a cheap way.

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I don't know about you, but I appreciate an injection of realism in my fiction.
I prefer it in moderate portions like pills or something.

Too much ketchup can ruin the food.
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:19   Link #1270
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What? I LIKE dirty tactics. More stabbing the old wound and twist the knife, more dirt thrown in the eyes, more misinformation, bringing the good guys into a building stuffed with explosives, yay dirty tactics. "Honorable" samurai duels is going to make scratch heads when the organization have the pretense to be slightly military. That overuse of "honorable" one on one duels is kind of shit that is only going to bring up more wallbangers.
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:23   Link #1271
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according to some, ketchup goes on everything
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:24   Link #1272
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I myself rather like it when dirty fighting is shown up by a clean fighter who is just plain better.
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:25   Link #1273
Akiyoshi
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"Honorable" samurai duels is going to make scratch heads when the organization have the pretense to be slightly military.
Aaaaand you just pointed out why the wolkenritter shuldn't be part of a military organization to begin with. Damn you StrikerS xDU.

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That overuse of "honorable" one on one duels is kind of shit that is only going to bring up more wallbangers.
Sad but true. Ok, i'm hoping for Hayate's backstab on Curren.

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according to some, ketchup goes on everything
A Chinese gourmet cook would want to slice the neck of the fool who says that xD.
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:32   Link #1274
itanshi1
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I know gourmet cooks who use ketchup. I'd never afford a meal made by them ^^

not that they swear by it, heh
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:36   Link #1275
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
"MAGIC!" will always be a viable excuse, mostly because magic can't be debunked by science. Since, you know, "MAGIC!"
This now brings me to the random thought of....

Would Signum's sword or giant Grahf Eisen break of Kamijou Touma punched them?

*InB4AwakenedAcceleratorAnything*

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Aaaaand you just pointed out why the wolkenritter shuldn't be part of a military organization to begin with. Damn you StrikerS xDU.
I agree with this 100% in that they shouldn't be. Though in my case it's because I really, really, REALLY hate the brown uniforms from StrikerS. More than any person should >.>

. It reminds me of those UPS douche bags that always just leave my $100+ orders on the front door step with the box usually crushed.

I don't need Signum delivering my ill gotten merchandise halfassedly. >.>
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:44   Link #1276
Akiyoshi
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This now brings me to the random thought of....

Would Signum's sword or giant Grahf Eisen break of Kamijou Touma punched them?
Considering what happens to Index's "Church" robes that are essentially a mobile fortress, well, yeah, probably that's what going to happen. Ladies and Gentlemen, Kamijou Touma in all his glorious cheapness.

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I don't need Signum delivering my ill gotten merchandise halfassedly. >.>
I don't mind if she delivers mine's xD

*sits in front of the door Scott Pilgrim-style*
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:47   Link #1277
Arcc
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Actually, let me rephrase that. I suppose I have a different idea of dirty fighting. A surprising amount of kung fu consists of creative ways to hit your opponents in the nads, and even before I started studying that I was a student of the Angus MacGyver school of tactical improvisation. So what I see as dirty is largely things that are just plain unnecessary and uncalled for, I.E. stomping a downed opponent.

IMO, Curren's takedown of Hayate was on an absolute different side of the line from Deville attempting to decapitate Isis. Hey, I like Hayate as much as the next guy, but when somebody's hanging a giant weaponized iceberg over your home, that definitely counts as throwing the first punch. Moreover, Curren's attack wasn't even intended to kill Hayate. Curren's getting a surprising lot of flack when she's easily the most restrained of the lot.

Frankly, I think too much of this discussion is more about fan-rage than anything else. . . And I said I wouldn't get dragged in. So much for that.
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Old 2011-03-24, 17:55   Link #1278
Akiyoshi
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IMO, Curren's takedown of Hayate was on an absolute different side of the line from Deville attempting to decapitate Isis. Hey, I like Hayate as much as the next guy, but when somebody's hanging a giant weaponized iceberg over your home, that definitely counts as throwing the first punch.
I thinked killing hundreds of people and attempted murder against two of her precious children count very fairly as a "first punch" to Hayate xDU

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Moreover, Curren's attack wasn't even intended to kill Hayate. Curren's getting a surprising lot of flack when she's easily the most restrained of the lot.
To be fair, i didn't complain that much about Curren's backstabing, combat-wise she looks pretty badass during the enterity of Ch. 13. It's her being such a spoiled brat what annoys me to no end, i'm started to figure out that the reason of why i like Deville that much is because he keeps his mouth shut, or at least avoids unnecessary dickery towards his opponent's.
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Old 2011-03-24, 18:17   Link #1279
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
What? I LIKE dirty tactics."Honorable" samurai duels is going to make scratch heads when the organization have the pretense to be slightly military. That overuse of "honorable" one on one duels is kind of shit that is only going to bring up more wallbangers.
*Implying that the main purpose of Samurai's were for one-one duel, even in large battles*

Despite what fiction may tell us, Samurai's (and European knights, and Arab Faris, and Turkish Sipahi's, etc etc etc) did use tactics (aside from some exceptions, which I must point out usually ended with the idiots being massacred), how else would they exploit their full advantage in battle?

That duel thing was mostly ceremonial, to boost prestige and morale for the victor's side of the duel before battle, and it usually happened only when both sides has some times for chit-chat.

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Aaaaand you just pointed out why the wolkenritter shuldn't be part of a military organization to begin with. Damn you StrikerS xDU.
I wonder why the didn't join the Saint Church instead, but yes, their mindset does seem out of place.

But TBH? Chivalry was a thing before armies have the firepower to do massive, widespread damage. The heroes in Nanoha could annihilate at least platoons!

Having a bit of 'realism' injection is fine, but only if the characters reacts with a similarly 'real' reaction. Against these Hucks 'befriending' isn't exactly a pragmatic choice, but having the heroes shoot to kill would break character, wouldn't it?

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I agree with this 100% in that they shouldn't be. Though in my case it's because I really, really, REALLY hate the brown uniforms from StrikerS. More than any person should >.>
The blue uniforms are nice though. And The black Enforcer ones are sexy
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Old 2011-03-24, 18:17   Link #1280
Justin_Brett
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Yeah, the Hucks would actually be intimidating if they weren't, well, dicks. And just in a general douchebaggery sense, not being villainous about it. Makes them less 'implacable force' and more 'someone shut these guys up, for the love of god'

Aren't they already kind of shooting to kill? It's plasma bullets against unarmored foes.
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