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Old 2011-03-27, 23:13   Link #21
Heibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seven|x_x View Post
...every day they dont get fired, they're getting credit for their work.

they do get credit, just not as individuals. nobody cares who drew the penguin in episode 4 of SZS; but they know that shaft did a great job on the show. if someone asks them what they do for work, they say they work at whatever studio; they dont say "what, you didnt see my name on tv last friday?"
It's also part of name recognition(personal name recognition) in the industry. It's a lot more than the juvenile reaction you are trying to characterize. And yes, someone cares who drew what, who did what audio, who did what scenic view. You need to learn/care a little more about the anime industry if you think no one does. Though it is obvious that you don't/won't. So sad. Such is how far anime "fandumb" has fallen.
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Old 2011-03-28, 03:38   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
It's also part of name recognition(personal name recognition) in the industry. It's a lot more than the juvenile reaction you are trying to characterize. And yes, someone cares who drew what, who did what audio, who did what scenic view. You need to learn/care a little more about the anime industry if you think no one does. Though it is obvious that you don't/won't. So sad. Such is how far anime "fandumb" has fallen.
I think that 90% or more of the viewers don't really care about each and every person who worked on a show. They'll sometimes know the various directors for each phase (animation, voice acting, etc.) and the overall series' director, the original creator, the studio and who writes the scripts. But can you honestly say you care about that one intern, who just happened to be the one who made sure the various computers used were in proper working order? Or the guy who animated one particular scene? Or even the guy who brought the director his coffee?

If I follow that train of thought, do you also look at ALL the credits when you go watch a movie to see if you recognize any names? Can you really say to anyone stuff like "I recognize that assistant producer" or "this scene was obviously filmed by this cameraman"? I'm willing to bet that even you don't care about all those people involved and would leave the theater right as the credits start rolling, or soon after (assuming you even go to a theater to watch movies). Director, producer, studio and main cast is usually as far as most people will go. I usually like to learn about the entire cast, but more than that is beyond something I care about.

Anyway, if they give NC OP/ED as a bonus with the DVD/Blu-Ray, why NOT use them? It's not like you paid for them anyway and you can usually turn them off if it truly bothers you. And how many people actually watch the OP/ED every single time? Unless they're really good, most people skip them after having seen them a few times, so they wouldn't even see the credits anymore.
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Old 2011-03-28, 07:26   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
I think that 90% or more of the viewers don't really care about each and every person who worked on a show. They'll sometimes know the various directors for each phase (animation, voice acting, etc.) and the overall series' director, the original creator, the studio and who writes the scripts. But can you honestly say you care about that one intern, who just happened to be the one who made sure the various computers used were in proper working order? Or the guy who animated one particular scene? Or even the guy who brought the director his coffee?

If I follow that train of thought, do you also look at ALL the credits when you go watch a movie to see if you recognize any names? Can you really say to anyone stuff like "I recognize that assistant producer" or "this scene was obviously filmed by this cameraman"? I'm willing to bet that even you don't care about all those people involved and would leave the theater right as the credits start rolling, or soon after (assuming you even go to a theater to watch movies). Director, producer, studio and main cast is usually as far as most people will go. I usually like to learn about the entire cast, but more than that is beyond something I care about.

Anyway, if they give NC OP/ED as a bonus with the DVD/Blu-Ray, why NOT use them? It's not like you paid for them anyway and you can usually turn them off if it truly bothers you. And how many people actually watch the OP/ED every single time? Unless they're really good, most people skip them after having seen them a few times, so they wouldn't even see the credits anymore.
Actually, I do watch all the credits when I go to a movie and sometimes at home as well. And occasionally I can recognize someone on the list of poeple in the credits.

You see, in the anime industry, and probably the entire entertainment industry, those credits are like a resume to everyone who worked on the show.

Oh, and I watch the ending credits most of the time on anime as well.

According to your theory here - why should they even bother with credits in the first place? Oh, well. As I said, sounds like this is today's "fandumb".
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Old 2011-03-28, 09:35   Link #24
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If I want to know who was credited for some work, I visit ANN or AniDB. By the time non-credit versions become available, those databases have already been filled, and are surely a more convenient place to look.
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Old 2011-03-28, 14:29   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
those credits are like a resume to everyone who worked on the show.
since this is an opinion thread, i'll respond to yours. those credits are more of a thank you, in my mind, for the people that worked on the show. if thats right or wrong i dont know, and dont care to know. in any case though, i cant agree that credits are a resume, as you say, when they leave people off the list.

find me a staffing department that actually looks through the credits for the name of a person who did a specific job. please. enlighten me to the ways of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Oh, well. As I said, sounds like this is today's "fandumb".
oh those persnickety little whippersnappers, watching them fancy cartoons, not givin a hoot about all the hard work thats done just so they can laugh at a fart joke.
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Old 2011-03-28, 15:02   Link #26
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Originally Posted by seven|x_x View Post
since this is an opinion thread, i'll respond to yours. those credits are more of a thank you, in my mind, for the people that worked on the show. if thats right or wrong i dont know, and dont care to know. in any case though, i cant agree that credits are a resume, as you say, when they leave people off the list.

find me a staffing department that actually looks through the credits for the name of a person who did a specific job. please. enlighten me to the ways of the world.


oh those persnickety little whippersnappers, watching them fancy cartoons, not givin a hoot about all the hard work thats done just so they can laugh at a fart joke.
I cannot cure your "fandumbity" so I won't try. You yourself have just said you don't care and can't agree so you will remain either ignorant or stupid for the rest of your life. Ignorance can be cured...I hope you have a chance for the cure...

Now get off my lawn.
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Old 2011-03-28, 15:38   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Actually, do watch all the credits when I go to a movie and sometimes at home as well. And occasionally I can recognize someone on the list of poeple in the credits.

You see, in the anime industry, and probably the entire entertainment industry, those credits are like a resume to everyone who worked on the show.

Oh, and I watch the ending credits most of the time on anime as well.

According to your theory here - why should they even bother with credits in the first place? Oh, well. As I said, sounds like this is today's "fandumb".
Pot. Kettle. Black. 'Nuff said.
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Old 2011-03-28, 16:48   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
Pot. Kettle. Black. 'Nuff said.
With the current level of "fandumb" they probably don't even understand your reference.
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Old 2011-03-29, 04:58   Link #29
seven|x_x
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
You yourself have just said you don't care and can't agree so you will remain either ignorant or stupid for the rest of your life.
remain ignorant? of what? the names of people who created an anime? i fail to see the relevance to the rest of my life. if you are so convinced, than share your reasons.

to clarify, when i said i dont care if i was right or wrong about the reason behind credits, that was because the reason behind them is irrelevant; whether they're there or not is of no consequence to me. of this opinion, i could be easily swayed; provided there was a logical argument that gives me, an average consumer (the target market), reason to watch them.

[i kinda left the realm of the thread there, as the target market for most anime would actually be able to read the credits, which i cant.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
I cannot cure your "fandumbity" so I won't try.
opinions are opinions right? even if someones self righteous enough to consider it fact. do try to "cure me" though, with some effort please.



question: when you go out to eat, do you prefer to be informed of all the staff present before or after your meal? maybe just the head chef beforehand, then the full list later on?

or perhaps, do you just go to the restaurant because it has what you like to eat, regardless of who's washing dishes that night?
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Old 2011-03-29, 08:54   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seven|x_x View Post
remain ignorant? of what? the names of people who created an anime? i fail to see the relevance to the rest of my life. if you are so convinced, than share your reasons.
to clarify, when i said i dont care if i was right or wrong about the reason behind credits, that was because the reason behind them is irrelevant; whether they're there or not is of no consequence to me. of this opinion, i could be easily swayed; provided there was a logical argument that gives me, an average consumer (the target market), reason to watch them.
[i kinda left the realm of the thread there, as the target market for most anime would actually be able to read the credits, which i cant.]
opinions are opinions right? even if someones self righteous enough to consider it fact. do try to "cure me" though, with some effort please.
question: when you go out to eat, do you prefer to be informed of all the staff present before or after your meal? maybe just the head chef beforehand, then the full list later on?
or perhaps, do you just go to the restaurant because it has what you like to eat, regardless of who's washing dishes that night?
It's going to be nearly impossible to "cure" someone who doesn't care and can't agree with me.

When we(Central Anime) were working with TokyoPop on Initial D, when they had the license, they had a contractual obligation to put our names in the credits. Much like an actor or simple gaff boy has a contract with a movie/TV production - their names must appear in the credits. It becomes a resume of sorts since they can show it to possible employers in lieu of contact with a particular past employer(of course info on how hard and good their work was can only be solicited through actual contact and letters of recommendation if more is needed) . Not to mention pride in their accomplishments. And since you say credits are irrelevant you will remain ignorant.(Oh, it's "then share your reasons" not "than share your reasons" - your ignorance and lack of education shine through with statements like that)

Food is irrelevant to this conversation. "Apples and Oranges" to say the least.

So anyway, opinions aside, the credits do matter even if no one watches them 100% of the time. As for this thread putting in textless OP/ED is also irrelevant in the stated opinions of some since no one watches them after the first episode. So once the fansubber provides them once(say the first episode), he/she/they can leave the show as is with text OP/ED and no one but the most avid anime fan who actually cares more about the show than just a free download and thus watches the credits.
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Old 2011-03-29, 10:59   Link #31
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jesus fuck, you people need to learn how to just not get into these sorts of silly arguments about what these godlike creators of your precious Chinese cartoons want or care about. just drop it already, okay?

so, what you're doing is warez. yes, it is, even if some of you prefer to call it by some euphemism. just do whatever the fuck you want, it's not like they can stop you, and it seems extremely fucking unlikely to me that someone at some Chinese cartoon studio who actually knows about and is outraged by these filthy western pigs raping their work would be any less insulted because you left his name in it.

edit: also, there is basically nothing that is more satisfying and enjoyable than pissing off people who take their Chinese cartoons so seriously that they just have to go post on internet forums about how terrible it is that some people are REMOVING CREDITS! (just don't fucking download it if it pisses you off so much, dumbass. or you could, like, buy the fucking thing if you care so much)
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:00   Link #32
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I kind of doubt someone in the industry is going to bring a hard drive full of fansub rips to an interview to show their prospective employer what they've worked on.
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:12   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Desbreko View Post
I kind of doubt someone in the industry is going to bring a hard drive full of fansub rips to an interview to show their prospective employer what they've worked on.
More ignorance, and this time of the subject at hand.
WTF are you talking about? We are talking about the people who actually worked on the anime in the credits not some fansubber. Get with the program.
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:18   Link #34
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Uh, I sure hope everything here have been agreeing that this discussion is about pirated copies replacing sequences containing credits, with sequences not containing credits.
I doubt anyone have been arguing that studios should make the non-credit versions the default on DVD, BD and TV releases.
This would only be a real issue if suddenly the only remaining copies in the world were pirated ones with the credits removed... what's the chance of that?

Heibi, I haven't seen any argument from you that explains why this is relevant for fansubs which are illegal copies in the first place.
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:38   Link #35
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Uh, I sure hope everything here have been agreeing that this discussion is about pirated copies replacing sequences containing credits, with sequences not containing credits.
I doubt anyone have been arguing that studios should make the non-credit versions the default on DVD, BD and TV releases.
This would only be a real issue if suddenly the only remaining copies in the world were pirated ones with the credits removed... what's the chance of that?

Heibi, I haven't seen any argument from you that explains why this is relevant for fansubs which are illegal copies in the first place.
That's because I wasn't talking about that. Someone said that the credits meant nothing. I was saying why they did. That is very relevant, even when talking about fansubs. We got our reputation, that had TokyoPop contact us, through fansubs, BTW.

So to the actual subject at hand:
But to be blunt, since it has been stated many times, why bother doing textless OP/ED when n one will watch them and don't care anyway. Waste of time for a fansubber to go through the trouble for something that no one will watch. And on that subject - if, as stated, no one watches the OP/ED and skips them why do fansub groups bother with karaoke? Seems like a waste of time the. From all the leechers who seem to complain about shows that don't have karaoke you'd be led to believe that they actually do watch the OP/ED. Hmmm, maybe the person who assumes no one watches the OP/ED is mistaken?
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Old 2011-03-29, 13:19   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
That's because I wasn't talking about that. Someone said that the credits meant nothing. I was saying why they did. That is very relevant, even when talking about fansubs. We got our reputation, that had TokyoPop contact us, through fansubs, BTW.
You're saying this as if it was a good thing...
(I guess you, in the true oldschool fansub "we're doing this to spread anime" fashion, let them have your translations for free? You done got hustled, son. Also, Tokyopop is terrible.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
So to the actual subject at hand:
But to be blunt, since it has been stated many times, why bother doing textless OP/ED when n one will watch them and don't care anyway. Waste of time for a fansubber to go through the trouble for something that no one will watch. And on that subject - if, as stated, no one watches the OP/ED and skips them why do fansub groups bother with karaoke? Seems like a waste of time the. From all the leechers who seem to complain about shows that don't have karaoke you'd be led to believe that they actually do watch the OP/ED. Hmmm, maybe the person who assumes no one watches the OP/ED is mistaken?
If you actually did what people who watch fansubs wanted to you to do, you'd spam a billion translation notes everywhere, have gigantic AFX particle karaoke covering the entire OP/ED and leave as many random Japanese weeaboo terms as possible untranslated. I'm not kidding, this is what a pretty significant majority of people who watch fansubs actually prefer.

In other words, when in doubt, you should do what is likely to piss leechers off, not what they claim to want, and you're likely to end up with a pretty good fansub. In still other words, people who watch anime are in general pretty terrible people.
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Old 2011-03-29, 13:35   Link #37
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Also, Tokyopop is terrible.)
Oh, trust me I know that. The guy I was working with at TokyoPop was really hoping tings would turn out great for Initial D. However, after a whole bunch of meetings on the series and what he found out they'd be doing to it, he quit. But hey, we got official recognition, so oh well. Though the subbed script was massively changed.

And yes, I/We are truly old school.

Leechers these days have no idea how good they've got it.
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Old 2011-03-29, 16:47   Link #38
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looking back at the thread, i didnt actually give a reason for my supporting the NCOP/EDs. i would say compression, but generally disc releases appeal more to people that look to archive their fansubs, and those people generally pick the biggest filesize they can grab(filesize being the only real metric for visual quality). so other than just being able to say you used them, the only reason to go through with the very minor amount of effort is if you've got karaoke thats gonna eat up screen real estate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
...
an actual counterargument, backed by reason? now were getting somewhere. sounds like you actually do have a reason to care. people that are in the credits, or have been in the credits would obviously care more than people who just want to watch the show. you've lost the point of view that the consumer has, and thats why we feel differently about this. if my name was on the credit roll, even for the most menial task, i'd definitely want people to see that and take note. so yeah, i see your point.

none of the kids waking up early to watch cartoons have their names flashing by on screen though, and obviously neither do i; so i still stand by my point; to the consumer, credits are largely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Food is irrelevant to this conversation. "Apples and Oranges" to say the least.
really? you couldnt see the correlation? so not only do you not see the similarities between two industries that provide goods to a consumer that typically only cares about the end product, but you cant see the obvious similarities that exist between apples and oranges as well? all while calling me out for grammatical errors?

...thats just bananas.
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Old 2011-03-29, 19:02   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seven|x_x View Post
looking back at the thread, i didnt actually give a reason for my supporting the NCOP/EDs. i would say compression, but generally disc releases appeal more to people that look to archive their fansubs, and those people generally pick the biggest filesize they can grab(filesize being the only real metric for visual quality). so other than just being able to say you used them, the only reason to go through with the very minor amount of effort is if you've got karaoke thats gonna eat up screen real estate.



an actual counterargument, backed by reason? now were getting somewhere. sounds like you actually do have a reason to care. people that are in the credits, or have been in the credits would obviously care more than people who just want to watch the show. you've lost the point of view that the consumer has, and thats why we feel differently about this. if my name was on the credit roll, even for the most menial task, i'd definitely want people to see that and take note. so yeah, i see your point.

none of the kids waking up early to watch cartoons have their names flashing by on screen though, and obviously neither do i; so i still stand by my point; to the consumer, credits are largely irrelevant.

really? you couldnt see the correlation? so not only do you not see the similarities between two industries that provide goods to a consumer that typically only cares about the end product, but you cant see the obvious similarities that exist between apples and oranges as well? all while calling me out for grammatical errors?
In the anime industry it is a contractual obligation. In the food industry, like McDonald's or some nice restaurant, they are paid minimum wage or more, by the hour with no contractual obligation from the company to give them credit, other than a paycheck. Big difference. The menu doesn't come with a cast list - considering that they usually have shift workers and anime production companies don't. I've been to A-Spot Studios in Tokyo - no shift workers. They all show up and work until closing time.(long hours) About the only thing similar is that they get paid to work and that's about it.

On U.S. releases I also like to look at the credits. I have folks I've collaborated with on fansubs go professional. Michael House(AnimEigo translator) and Paul England(Gundam 00 translator for Bandai). Thus, I like looking for names in the credits.

And you still made many grammatical errors in your post again - so I stand by pointing out your consistent bad grammar.
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Old 2011-03-29, 20:55   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seven|x_x View Post
question: when you go out to eat, do you prefer to be informed of all the staff present before or after your meal? maybe just the head chef beforehand, then the full list later on?

or perhaps, do you just go to the restaurant because it has what you like to eat, regardless of who's washing dishes that night?
And I'm guessing you insist that the restaurant staff not wear nametags at all because you don't care what their names are?

Anyway, to try and bring this back to the original topic just a bit... DmonHiro, if you prefer NCOP/ED for your own watching enjoyment, and you think adding NCOP/ED to your releases will make them better in general, then by all means do it.

Unless it's one of those "credits integrated in animation" shows (in which case there usually aren't NC versions to begin with), or if the NC versions take away episode-specific content, you won't get many if any complaints. Terrible anime-watching person that I am, I can't remember complaining about any spliced NCOP/ED outside of those two situations.
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