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Old 2011-03-29, 10:32   Link #2101
Haak
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They're not objecting to a tragic ending per se. What they mean is that a tragic ending would have no purpose at this point.
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Old 2011-03-29, 10:43   Link #2102
Solace
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
If Madoka Magica is a tragedy, why can it not be enjoyed as a tragedy? We can gain from it, not demoralization or despair, but catharsis--the expression and the refinement of our emotions of pity and fear. We can learn, from the tragic hero's recognition of his place in human fate and destiny, an elevated perspective upon ourselves and our own lives. We can enjoy the anime, in short, in the same way that we enjoy King Lear or Oedipus Rex.

Why not?
I never said it couldn't. I'm just expressing my opinion that I wouldn't find it personally satisfying. I enjoy all types of stories, but I'm a seeker of balance. I don't really dwell on extremes of happy or sad much. The stories that resonate with me are the kind where the main element of struggle is rewarded at the end.

That's why I don't find the notion of another bad end for Madoka appealing, to me it would just feel like an extension of what we already know, and not a resolution. That doesn't mean the ending can't be tragic in some way, but I also don't want to feel like I sat through 12 episodes of nothing resolved either.

I want to see Kyubey lose. I want to see him pay. Payback. Vengeance. Retribution. It's as simple as that. Any happiness outside of that is just an extra bonus. But watching the antagonists win.....not enjoyable, no matter what personal depth/reflection I take away from the story.

Nothing would be more satisfying to me than seeing one of the best villains I've watched in a long time get what he deserves. I want hope that the suffering these characters went through wasn't for nothing.

If Gen/Shaft delivers that, I will take back what I said in my previous post.
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:05   Link #2103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's just a difference of degree, not type. It's like turning the decibel level up on the death metal music that's been playing for 30 minutes now. It's louder, sure, but it's just more of the same.

It would be very redundant, in my opinion.
It would be so redundant, that I think even ending it on episode 10 "I will fight forever" would work for me if we really want to go with demented Endless Eight.

Wait, why am I comparing it with that nonsense... I mean

Spoiler for Higurashi:

And then you'll know what I'd prefer.
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:27   Link #2104
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I wonder why General Discussion and Spoilers & Speculation are having the exact same discussions. Isn't that kinda redundant? Lol.
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Old 2011-03-29, 11:30   Link #2105
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That's what delays do to you. Your mind becomes a puddle of ideas, speculation, and fanwank.
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Old 2011-03-29, 12:27   Link #2106
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I hate not knowing when the next episodes are coming. If they just named a date, even if it was far away, I could look forward to it, but the uncertainty is killing me!
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Old 2011-03-29, 12:29   Link #2107
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
That's what delays do to you. Your mind becomes a puddle of ideas, speculation, and fanwank.
Well yes. I've been watching My Little Pony to take my mind off the Madoka delays.

.....It's not helping much.
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Old 2011-03-29, 14:02   Link #2108
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Originally Posted by *Osaka*Fan* View Post
I hate not knowing when the next episodes are coming. If they just named a date, even if it was far away, I could look forward to it, but the uncertainty is killing me!
I think that if they knew that, they would have told us by now. It's up to the TV station to find a gap to fit the remaining two episode in, and that could take quite some time.

And I assume even NND has its limitations, else they'd stream them from there to at least try and please hungry fans.
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Old 2011-03-29, 16:15   Link #2109
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Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
I think that if they knew that, they would have told us by now. It's up to the TV station to find a gap to fit the remaining two episode in, and that could take quite some time.

And I assume even NND has its limitations, else they'd stream them from there to at least try and please hungry fans.
Yeah it's like the NND webcast is our tiny piece of hope and might be the way the last episodes are put out. But the odds of them being allowed to air them before or instead of TV are probably pretty slim.
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Old 2011-03-29, 19:47   Link #2110
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there were some tweets around hinting that episode 12 may be finally complete. So, hope springs eternal.
Hm, what tweets are you talking about? I haven't read them yet, whatever they are.
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Old 2011-03-29, 22:13   Link #2111
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I want to see Kyubey lose. I want to see him pay. Payback. Vengeance. Retribution. It's as simple as that. Any happiness outside of that is just an extra bonus. But watching the antagonists win.....not enjoyable, no matter what personal depth/reflection I take away from the story.

Nothing would be more satisfying to me than seeing one of the best villains I've watched in a long time get what he deserves. I want hope that the suffering these characters went through wasn't for nothing.

If Gen/Shaft delivers that, I will take back what I said in my previous post.
I'm glad I was right about someone harboring ill intent against Kyubey. Deep inside, we want that furball to suffer as much as he has made Madoka suffer. A certain person denied feeling the same way, but I think we all do.

Kyubey is definitely the antagonist, but he may have noble intentions. If we are to believe that Kyubey is manipulating young teenage girls in order to save the entire universe, then the suffering of Madoka and company may pay off as the universe surviving for a longer time. I know you see Kyubey's motives as a cheap cop-out to justify the abuse of Earth and it's people.

Maybe the ending can be displeasing, unsatisfying, and even grotesque. Maybe Urobuchi may choose to write in order to anger the fans. Have Madoka and Homura simply lose to Walpurgi's Night, or have Madoka turn into a witch that destroys Earth. I mean, the season is nearing the end... if he wants to troll us, then now is the time. But what separates Urobuchi from the average internet troll? There exists meaning within his seemingly shoddy work. That in order for his message to be truly understood, we have to feel anger at reality itself. Life is unfair, and people die as they live: in suffering and sadness.
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Old 2011-03-29, 22:52   Link #2112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I'm glad I was right about someone harboring ill intent against Kyubey. Deep inside, we want that furball to suffer as much as he has made Madoka suffer. A certain person denied feeling the same way, but I think we all do.
Who denied wanting to see Kyubey pay for what he has done?

Speaking personally, I've simply wrote that people shouldn't count on that happening. That's a matter of managing expectations, not hopes.


Quote:
That in order for his message to be truly understood, we have to feel anger at reality itself. Life is unfair, and people die as they live: in suffering and sadness.
This is somewhat off-topic, but not everyone lives in suffering and sadness. Not everyone dies in suffering and sadness, for that matter.

My late paternal grandfather lead a happy and fulfilling life, based on every meeting and conversation I had with him. The day before he died, he had complete control of his faculties, and was mobile, able to go wherever he wanted to.

He died quickly from a heart attack the next day, over the age of 80.

That doesn't sound like a life or death of great suffering and sadness to me.
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Old 2011-03-29, 23:49   Link #2113
Deconstructor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Who denied wanting to see Kyubey pay for what he has done?

Speaking personally, I've simply wrote that people shouldn't count on that happening. That's a matter of managing expectations, not hopes.
I think it perfectly right for one to follow their emotions when speculating - that way, when Urobuchi writes a story contrary to said emotion, we will feel both disappointed, intrigued, and pleased at what is presented. Getting the wrong answer is less important than saying what we truly feel as viewers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This is somewhat off-topic, but not everyone lives in suffering and sadness. Not everyone dies in suffering and sadness, for that matter.

My late paternal grandfather lead a happy and fulfilling life, based on every meeting and conversation I had with him. The day before he died, he had complete control of his faculties, and was mobile, able to go wherever he wanted to.

He died quickly from a heart attack the next day, over the age of 80.

That doesn't sound like a life or death of great suffering and sadness to me.
You are somewhat correct; the people outside of our camera's view are probably enjoying a normal, ordinary, simple life. Hitomi and Kyosuke are shown to engage in school life, and they seem to be content. However, since we mostly see people suffering, I have to make my statement on those few characters. To viewers, the interesting people are those who enter the Puella Magi system and suffer as a result.
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Old 2011-03-29, 23:51   Link #2114
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This is somewhat off-topic, but not everyone lives in suffering and sadness. Not everyone dies in suffering and sadness, for that matter.
You know, the first thing many of the people who immigrated here to the U.S. would just note that well off many people are, as per the standard of living is a bit higher than elsewhere.

Rest assured if I told them my life was full of suffering and misery to some of them, I'd get slapped in the face.

It really is relative sometimes. Sometimes life is miserable, other times people make it miserable because they think it is.

Grass is always greener... I'd love a faster computer, and still be miserable when I get it, yet others would be happy to have a better meal, etc.
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Old 2011-03-30, 00:05   Link #2115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
I think it perfectly right for one to follow their emotions when speculating - that way, when Urobuchi writes a story contrary to said emotion, we will feel both disappointed, intrigued, and pleased at what is presented. Getting the wrong answer is less important than saying what we truly feel as viewers.
Well, I would like to see Kyubey pay for what he has done. I definitely think he deserves it.


Quote:
You are somewhat correct; the people outside of our camera's view are probably enjoying a normal, ordinary, simple life. Hitomi and Kyosuke are shown to engage in school life, and they seem to be content. However, since we mostly see people suffering, I have to make my statement on those few characters. To viewers, the interesting people are those who enter the Puella Magi system and suffer as a result.
I will say that your points look to be valid as it pertains to Puella Magis.

Puella Magis live and die in suffering, it seems.

Gen has clearly shown that unless there's some clever way to fix or destroy the system, it's best to never get into it in the first place.
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Old 2011-03-30, 01:33   Link #2116
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Honestly...if you wanted to destoy the entire system and punish Kyubey at the same time......just have madoka wish for kyubeys race to finally develop emotions. I wonder would he be so quick to doom people if he had a little guilt in there.
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Old 2011-03-30, 07:20   Link #2117
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That would actually bring up a nice question: if Kyuubey's race did have emotions, would they be as quick to sacrifice THEMSELVES for the sake of the universe?

As far as things go atm, Kyuubey seems - to quote Chiwa Saitou, Homura's VA - to be always in an interesting position. I'd go as far as to define this position: an impartial extraterrestrial force major. Effectively pulling off the impression that taking revenge on it would be of as much use as taking revenge on nature for the events of March 11.
Then comes another question. So, if Madoka manages to screw the system beyond tolerable... how satisfactory would it be for us, who want revenge on him? If he flicks his tail and says "Huh, bad luck, more headache now", that would probably disappoint some people more than him getting unscathed. Because divine retribution seems satisfactory only if the villainous object in question SUFFERS it - but if Kyuubey is oblivious to any revenge and retribution, if his lack of emotions will just allow him to shrug it off - then retribution isn't even worth wasting one's effort. Of course, screwing Incubators' system appears to hold enough value for humanity as it is (of course, it may hinder humanity's future like Kyuubey mused - but in this day and age, who on Earth cares about the heat death of the universe anyway? ).
So unless Kyuubey turns out to be the puppet master behind Walpurgisnacht's advent like someone here speculated, I'm inclined to see him as a background factor regarding the plot's further development. It's all about [Homura and] Madoka now, not about taking the cute alien twerp to court.
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Old 2011-03-30, 11:43   Link #2118
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Speaking of earthquakes brings up a point, it may be pointless to take revenge on a force of nature, but what if you chain it down until it was harmless? Like, what if it became technologically possible to defuse earthquakes before they happen?
Doing something like that to Kyubei would be... satisfying.
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Old 2011-03-30, 11:53   Link #2119
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Entropy is a force of nature. Therefore Kyubey, who is going against it, is not a force of nature. All the opposite, Kyubey's middling with the real forces of nature (like entropy) is what disrupts the actual natural balance.

Then again, Gen seems to suck at physics, so there's a chance he doesn't even understand Kyubey, even though it's his creation.
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Old 2011-03-31, 01:52   Link #2120
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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
That would actually bring up a nice question: if Kyuubey's race did have emotions, would they be as quick to sacrifice THEMSELVES for the sake of the universe?
I suppose this is irrelevant because Kyubey is the chef - the young innocent girls on Earth are the ingredients. Much like asking: would Kyubey feel bad if he slaughtered a live chicken, instead of buying it frozen from the supermarket? My answer is yes. Kyubey would be more hesitant to sacrifice any lifeform that screams out in agony and terror at their fated demise. Would he still do the deed? Probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snork View Post
As far as things go atm, Kyuubey seems - to quote Chiwa Saitou, Homura's VA - to be always in an interesting position. I'd go as far as to define this position: an impartial extraterrestrial force major. Effectively pulling off the impression that taking revenge on it would be of as much use as taking revenge on nature for the events of March 11.
Wow, thinking about the situation like that...

The idea that Kyubey is a force of nature stems from the impression that nature itself is impartial and objective - nature lacks emotion. As an earthquake will simply hit wherever the tectonic plates move beneath. Or a tornado will strike the area close to where it originally formed. Or how thunderstorm clouds will barrage the ground above it.

That is where I find Kyubey and nature different. While nature follows the flow, Kyubey has intentions of his own. Kyubey actively seeks out the girl with the most powerful emotions, and tries to convince her with devised schemes. To say that Kyubey is a force of nature is to suggest that nature can think for itself and hold intention - as far as I know, that is untrue. Nature has yet to talk to us and ask us to stop killing it.

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Because divine retribution seems satisfactory only if the villainous object in question SUFFERS it - but if Kyuubey is oblivious to any revenge and retribution, if his lack of emotions will just allow him to shrug it off - then retribution isn't even worth wasting one's effort.
This is a decent point. If Madoka and Homura simply die, then Kyubey will simply move on to the next best girl. As he states to be an emotionless being, Kyubey is unable to feel anger or hatred against those who oppose him. You would have thought Kyubey would get angry at Homura for playing his wish system like a fool. Or pissed off at Madoka for taking this long to contract.

That still means the main characters should work to subvert the evil furball's plans. Instead of taking revenge on Kyubey, the focus is on preventing him from enslaving more of Earth's innocent girls into the Puella Magi system. I think you say the same thing later in your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snork View Post
So unless Kyuubey turns out to be the puppet master behind Walpurgisnacht's advent like someone here speculated, I'm inclined to see him as a background factor regarding the plot's further development. It's all about [Homura and] Madoka now, not about taking the cute alien twerp to court.
Maybe so, but Kyubey is the character that set this entire show into motion. Kyubey gave birth to all the Puella Magi seen, and possibly all the witches too. Perhaps Kyubey's job is done - all he has to do now is sit back and watch as Madoka crawls up in despair to his paws. However, I will suggest otherwise. I think that Kyubey has one last revelation to share with Madoka, given that all Kyubey does in this anime is talk. So far, Kyubey has constantly added upon the mysterious workings of the Puella Magi system and the universe. I feel that Kyubey needs to be vindicated one more time - the entropy justification feels like only part of the whole story.
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