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Old 2010-11-06, 07:47   Link #1
milan kyuubi
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[manga] Sage of the Six Paths General Discussion

It's been said that the sage of the six paths was the first ninja to create modern ninjutsu (what ninja uses today in present). It is unknown how he came to this world. Was he born like all humans or is he a product of some demonic intervention (is he half human and half demon). Considering his vast powers I would place my bet on him being half demon or at least have some connection with the juubi (meaning perhaps one of his parents was demon). His powers are able to control bijuu's now maybe he got his bloodline after sealing the juubi into himself, but I remember a information about him meeting the juubi after he started his traveling to spread ninjutsu around the world.
  • He has the rinnegan the most powerful ocular bloodline that exist.
  • It seams he got the fully developed rinnegan (both the rinnegan and sharingan) after sealing the juubi into himself) (look closely and if I am nor mistaken in this pic he has both rinnegan and sharingan)

He had or maybe even invented the greatest has power in Naruto world called izanagi. He was literally able to create reality into an illusion and illusion into a reality. He was also able to create thing out of nothing and give them life. This is how he created the nine bijuu's using juubi's chakra.
My theory is that he also left some part of himself within bijuu's when he crated them. Why else would Naruto received his psychical powers when he absorbed the nine tails chakra. He had to sons, it would seam that Naruto is the decanted of the second son (ether by blood or some other way). But it is confirmed that Sasuke and Madara are the decedents of the first son.
  • One of his powers it seams to be the sealing techiques, it is belived that he created the very first sealing jutsu.
  • He seams to have some connection with the Uzumaki clan, who were very skilled sealing masters.
  • It's been proved that Uzumaki's are able to acquire his power (rinnegan eyes), which leads to believe that he had some connection to the Uzumaki's. It is maybe even possible that he was Uzumaki himself (we never hears his name or last name, when Madara refers to him he calls him 'sage of six paths').

There are currently four people who are in possession of his power or some of it...
Madara, Nagato, Danzou, Naruto, Sasuke (he is optional, we don't know if by having EMS you can gain some of sage powers, that's why I didn't numbered him among this four). But to use his power to max level it seams you need power from both sons (Senju and Uchiha), only then will they be capable of using Izanagi without any consequences. Sage was the only who was able so far to use this power without giving anything in return (Danzou had to sacrifice one of his eyes every time he used this. And if I remember he also had the time limit before he can use it again. Also Danzou only had the power to create reality into an illusion).
In reality his powers were so great that on his death bad he was able to extract the juubi from himself and separate it into the nine parts. He did this to save the world, but this also confuses me as to what he thought that by separating one monster into nine would save the world. Wouldn't nine beings destroy world faster then one?

His psychical form was what made me believe that he is in fact half demon or maybe half of something else like gods, angels etc. Why else would he have horns on his head? While Naruto now has horns as well leads me to believe that it was not helmet (for the lack of better word) that he had but those horns were the part of his body.
Also there is about his necklace that to showed on Naruto's new form and I now that necklace was not part of his body. This also may be true about horns not being part of his body, but maybe I am wrong.

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  • I will give some freedom here so you can discuss juubi as well (considering they were one been for a long time (till death separates us ). Originally this thread was meant for both Sage and Juubi, but because by putting Juubi in the title I would be breaking 'No spoiler rules', I decided to make things this way.
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Last edited by james0246; 2011-03-31 at 13:41.
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Old 2011-03-31, 13:43   Link #2
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I'm still not sure if this should be a [manga] thread, but now that there is enough info provided in the anime and the manga, I guess this thread is now applicable.
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Old 2011-03-31, 15:13   Link #3
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You forgot to mention The Gold and Silver Brothers . It was mentioned that they're very close to the Rikudo Sennin, IF so, then Naruto is very close to the Rikudo Sennin as well, cuz he's an Uzumaki and has 6 scratches on his cheeks.


I wonder what they're for.
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Old 2011-03-31, 17:05   Link #4
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Originally Posted by milan kyuubi View Post
It's been said that the sage of the six paths was the first ninja to create modern ninjutsu (what ninja uses today in present).
  • He has the rinnegan the most powerful ocular bloodline that exist.
  • It seams he got the fully developed rinnegan (both the rinnegan and sharingan) after sealing the juubi into himself)

He had or maybe even invented the greatest has power in Naruto world called izanagi. He was literally able to create reality into an illusion and illusion into a reality. He was also able to create thing out of nothing and give them life. This is how he created the nine bijuu's using juubi's chakra.
Lots of good stuff to talk about here! Thanx for the thread!
Down to business:the 3 points I wanted to talk about are quoted.
1. I was looking, but I couldn't find where it was stated that the Rikudo sage started the Ninju religion, which was then evolved (or devolved) into Ninjutsu. Being a precursor to Ninjutsu would fit very well into my next point.
2.The Rikudo sage was able to make illusion into reality. As it is said that he is the creator of the tailed beasts (from the splitting of the one beast) it would be safe to assume he re-created the 10 tails as several different entities as to keep them from wanting to unite into one being again. Such an act would be far beyond simple Ninjutsu, and would really be like Creating a reality from raw energy.
3. My final point is about his eyes. In your own picture if you look at the eye painted above the sage's head it's a combination of Rinengan and sharingan and it has 9 tomes. It looks like 3 sharingan combined into one eye with 3 tomes along each circled line. I had always assumed that this is what his eye looked like, and that the 6 tome necklace was the signifigance of the Tomes (totaling 6) in the pair of sharingan eyes, and
Spoiler for Manga:
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Last edited by Kotengu; 2011-03-31 at 17:15.
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Old 2011-03-31, 18:56   Link #5
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Please correct me if i'm wrong, but what you called as "tome" is a "Tomoe" and those things in the Sage's Chest aren't Tomoe but Magatama.

The answers about #1 are on the first mentions about the Sage, i believe that it was Jiraiya the first one to mention him. #2 is simple, Kishi doesn't think to that level, to him is Ninjutsu because the sage used some skills where ninjutsu is involved and that's all. This is fiction,
Spoiler for manga:



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Originally Posted by Voinic View Post
You forgot to mention The Gold and Silver Brothers .
Spoiler for manga:



About the thread itself... i believe that's beyond any analysis... Madara was crystal clear:
Sasuke: Sage's elder son.
Naruto: Sage's younger son.

And that's all you need to know. They're natural born enemies. Madara even respects Hashirama, but in the end they are enemies.
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Old 2011-04-01, 06:06   Link #6
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[B][manga]
Was he born like all humans or is he a product of some demonic intervention (is he half human and half demon). Considering his vast powers I would place my bet on him being half demon or at least have some connection with the juubi (meaning perhaps one of his parents was demon).
I think Kishimoto does not want to introduce "demons" to this story, until now everything was explained by means of science. For example bloodlines and special abilities all being genetic traits. Superhuman powers are used in a very limited way, for example death god and the 9 demons. The death god used by minato was always just a summon, it had no other purpose in the story, the 9 demons are also just used as tools. So i think it's more likely that the creation of a child like the guy who became the sage is simply a random genetic mutation, where "random" can be interpreted as "fate" or "god's will". Of course as the story advances and the main characters have more and more powers it's inevitable for Kishimoto to shift from the scientific realm to the superhuman realm, new powers being explained not by means of science but powers coming from the other worlds. However i think only powers will come from there and not creatures, the role of death gods and such will never be more than tools in the hand of ninjas. The other possibility would be that Madara somehow opens a gate between worlds and some monsters/demons come out of it, but i think that wouldn't fit the story well.

But who knows, currently it seems that we are at Cell saga
I mean Madara reavealed that he wants to become "complete". What will be android 16 and 17 here?
One thing is the rinnegan eyes from Nagato, the other may be the demons being sealed in Madara. And there we have Perfect Madara.

After the Cell saga however came some superhuman crazy magical stuff in DB, so if Naruto continues the same pattern maybe demons and death gods and mighty magicians who control them may appear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voinic View Post
You forgot to mention The Gold and Silver Brothers . It was mentioned that they're very close to the Rikudo Sennin, IF so, then Naruto is very close to the Rikudo Sennin as well, cuz he's an Uzumaki and has 6 scratches on his cheeks.
That was just raikage's assumption, so Kishimoto may or may not use that in the future story, as it fits his needs. I mean Kishi can just forget about this since he didn't present this as a fact.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2011-04-01 at 06:29.
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Old 2011-04-01, 11:02   Link #7
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I think we're waaaay past superhuman 'threshhold' .. chakra and pretty eyes (or other genetic mutations) can do anything, from levitation, telerportation, intangibility, deatomisation, lava & stone spitting to pure/impure resurrection (and various other means of using the soul .. binds, seals etc.) & *reality warping* (including cheating death) .. I mean the sage made the moon ! the moon ....
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Old 2011-04-01, 13:01   Link #8
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I think we're waaaay past superhuman 'threshhold' .. chakra and pretty eyes (or other genetic mutations) can do anything, from levitation, telerportation, intangibility, deatomisation, lava & stone spitting to pure/impure resurrection (and various other means of using the soul .. binds, seals etc.) & *reality warping* (including cheating death) .. I mean the sage made the moon ! the moon ....
Maybe i used the wrong words, by superhuman i meant something that's from other worlds, that cannot be explained with the laws of nature. Chakra, genetic muations and all things these allow are by this definition natural in the Narutoverse. You know, in this world you just need chakra and the genetic ability to create elements, teleport, seal things or humans. And what's not part of that world are the death gods, and probably the 9 tailed demons. So i would be surprised if suddenly someone appeared who is a death god or some kind of demon and became one of the characters, because in my opinion it would not fit the story just like firearms would not fit the story so Kishimoto just removed guns.

For example superhuman would be if there were immortal creatures as characters of the story. Sure Orochimaru or Madara are immortal, but they use tricks to prolong their life, and that i would not call true immortality.

Maybe Hidan was the closest to having such an abnormal gift of immortality that cannot be explained in a natural way, i mean a talking head is just abnormal no matter what
So this Hidan tells that his god Yashin granted him immortality. What i meant is that i don't believe that this Yashin god will be one of the characters. But i can imagine him being dragged into the story long after Naruto beats Madara. It may not fit in but if the anime team or Kishimoto himself wants to capitalize on this then he can just change the story so that Naruto and Sasuke fight such godlike creatures like Yashin. But that will look more like a fight between godlike magicians than ninjas, it will be something different from the current Naruto.
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Old 2011-04-01, 16:13   Link #9
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tailed beasts are just balls of chakra .. although Juubi may be immortal seeing how even Sage was unable to kill him properly (both in a straight fight and after he became a jinchuriki .. I mean, it was said that if Naruto is killed - fox dies .. that wasn't the case with Juubi I assume, since othwerwise Sage could've sacrificed himself - maybe on his deathbed or something if he wanted to live a little longer)


ability-wise I think Naruto has everything, short of an actual universe-creating God, covered


I agree though that Kishi'll stick to ninjas
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Old 2011-04-01, 17:21   Link #10
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although Juubi may be immortal seeing how even Sage was unable to kill him properly
What if his intention wasn't to kill him but to control him?.
It's the same with Yondaime and Naruto.
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Old 2011-04-01, 19:41   Link #11
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tailed beasts are just balls of chakra .. although Juubi may be immortal seeing how even Sage was unable to kill him properly (both in a straight fight and after he became a jinchuriki .. I mean, it was said that if Naruto is killed - fox dies .. that wasn't the case with Juubi I assume, since othwerwise Sage could've sacrificed himself - maybe on his deathbed or something if he wanted to live a little longer)
All these lesser tailed demons are also immortal, that's why we speculate they come from a different realm than the natural world of this manga, since in the natural world nothing is immortal.
Remember before the 4th hakage sacrifices himself to seal it, he tells that even if Kushina were to die with the kyuubi it would eventually return to this world and Madara will use it again. If these could be killed then why wouldn't someone like the sage or 1st hokage kill them? Instead of letting them be used to kill people. The story needs such a problem that cannot be resolved by just killing the demons.
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Old 2011-04-01, 19:53   Link #12
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I'm ok with that, but... i just want to say that Tailed Beasts are weapons... and in wars, if you captured an enemy ship, tank or fighter, you actually use it. This is the same, perhaps the ambition to have such weapons is a huge temptation.

I believe that Kishi is using an analogy for the bijuus close to nuclear weapons. You know that nukes brought certain stability between Nato and Warsaw Pact. In Narutoverse it's the same.

Can you imagine a War with tailed beasts?, Yuugito and Bee against Naruto and Gaara?.
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Old 2011-04-02, 08:32   Link #13
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I'm ok with that, but... i just want to say that Tailed Beasts are weapons... and in wars, if you captured an enemy ship, tank or fighter, you actually use it. This is the same, perhaps the ambition to have such weapons is a huge temptation.

I believe that Kishi is using an analogy for the bijuus close to nuclear weapons. You know that nukes brought certain stability between Nato and Warsaw Pact. In Narutoverse it's the same.

Can you imagine a War with tailed beasts?, Yuugito and Bee against Naruto and Gaara?.
I was thinking like that too, but we must see that there were 3 ninja world wars after the demons were distributed to villages. So it seems the analogy is wrong, demons do not prevent wars. Just look at how the sand wanted to use Gaara against Konoha.

The weapon that Nagato wanted to create would be more like it, but since only one side would have it at a time that would also be different from nuclear weapons.
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Old 2011-04-02, 13:26   Link #14
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I was thinking like that too, but we must see that there were 3 ninja world wars after the demons were distributed to villages. So it seems the analogy is wrong, demons do not prevent wars. Just look at how the sand wanted to use Gaara against Konoha.
Well, Indochina, Vietnam, Afganistan, Falklands, Pakistan-India, etc... Nuke doesn't prevent wars.
So, one thing is the reason to have these tailed beasts and not to kill them and another one is if that reason was correct or wrong (it was proven wrong IMO).

Quote:
The weapon that Nagato wanted to create would be more like it, but since only one side would have it at a time that would also be different from nuclear weapons.
I would take Nagato's history very carefully, because we don't know how Madara gained his favor. We don't know if that's history was the history that Madara told him or if Nagato wanted to trick Madara.

Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2011-04-02, 14:05   Link #15
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Well, Indochina, Vietnam, Afganistan, Falklands, Pakistan-India, etc... Nuke doesn't prevent wars.
That were just local wars, in countries that do not have nukes. Nothing like the 1st or 2nd world war happened ever after the nukes were invented.
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Old 2011-04-02, 15:03   Link #16
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That were just local wars, in countries that do not have nukes. Nothing like the 1st or 2nd world war happened ever after the nukes were invented.
Indochina -> France
Vietnam -> USA
Afganistan -> USSR
Falklands -> UK
Pakistan-India -> both of them.

I put those examples precisaly because they didn't resort to nukes.

And how to forget Israel!.

Nuclear weapons don't prevent wars, but there is the temptation to use it, not as a weapon but as a psychological tool. I heard the rumor that M. Tatcher tried to threaten Argentina with nukes.

Here it's the same, hidden villages didnt' use tailed beasts, because they know that the Hell would open and there is no turning point.
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Old 2011-04-02, 15:53   Link #17
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Indochina -> France
Vietnam -> USA
Afganistan -> USSR
Falklands -> UK
Pakistan-India -> both of them.

I put those examples precisaly because they didn't resort to nukes.
Of course they didn't, because they could not use it, here i talk about world war and not some shitty little countries being played with.

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Here it's the same, hidden villages didnt' use tailed beasts, because they know that the Hell would open and there is no turning point.
I already told you an example when they used it: the sand village using Gaara inside Konoha, but they failed to use it.
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Old 2011-04-03, 07:07   Link #18
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Of course they didn't, because they could not use it, here i talk about world war and not some shitty little countries being played with.


I already told you an example when they used it: the sand village using Gaara inside Konoha, but they failed to use it.

That's not true, as far as I'm concerned. Orochimaru killed the Kazekage, took his position and ordered Gaara to attack Konoha with the Bijuu.
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Old 2011-04-03, 11:28   Link #19
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That's not true, as far as I'm concerned. Orochimaru killed the Kazekage, took his position and ordered Gaara to attack Konoha with the Bijuu.
If something is completely wrong the top officials will disagree with the kage, but they agreed. Just look at how raikage is sure that Danzou will be removed from the hokage position once the jounin council of Konoha hears what he did and that he is not trusted by other kages. A kage is not some kind of absolute dictator who can do whatever he wants.
Also it's probable that Orochimaru killed the kazekage after all the invasion plans were made, you can't impersonate a kage for too long without someone noticing that something is wrong. Orochimaru was there in the forest of death too.

Even in this war the tsuchikage wanted to use Naruto and KillerBee in the war, the only reason they are not used in this war because they are the targets of Madara.
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Old 2011-04-03, 11:42   Link #20
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If something is completely wrong the top officials will disagree with the kage, but they agreed. Just look at how raikage is sure that Danzou will be removed from the hokage position once the jounin council of Konoha hears what he did and that he is not trusted by other kages. A kage is not some kind of absolute dictator who can do whatever he wants.
Also it's probable that Orochimaru killed the kazekage after all the invasion plans were made, you can't impersonate a kage for too long without someone noticing that something is wrong. Orochimaru was there in the forest of death too.

Even in this war the tsuchikage wanted to use Naruto and KillerBee in the war, the only reason they are not used in this war because they are the targets of Madara.
You got a point there, but the Sand elders didn't mind the attack that time, things are different with the Leaf. Anyway, Kakashi mentioned that the Rinnegan is a mere mutation, I think that the real Rinnegan is the eye of the Juubi, which is supposedly , 1 Rinnegen + 3 Sharingan.
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