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Old 2011-04-01, 14:49   Link #12861
Tom Bombadil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm having trouble equating the two though...
1) Burn an organized stack of paper of which there are many many copies.
2) Slaughter human beings.

Now if they'd "burned a Bible" -- I might see the equivalence. But this is the kind of madness that gives religion bad rep. Wanna bet quite a few of the UN staff weren't Christian to begin with?
Yes and no. Both actions are stemming from the same root: religious radicalism, and that's what the insanity remark is for. Ideally, what you suggest is fair: no any sane man in the outside world will disagree. However, in that part of the world it simply does not work that way. The society, and the religion all operates by different rules: so it is only fair in our eyes, not in theirs. So by passing this fairness judgment on them, we are actually enforcing our value on them, which is how some policies with perfect intentions goes wrong; and they are acting on their own radical version of fairness: that is all perceived "offenders" of their religion is punishable by death.

Of course, that's no excuse for killing innocent people no matter what of the circumstances. Those people most likely killed some one who they should be gratitude for: those poor UN staffs are there to improve their lives. That's really how misguided those people are and how sad this incident is. But on the other hand, do you think the pastor in the US bear no fault? "Hey I burned a Koran, why don't you burn a bible in exchange?" All the signs and precedences indicate there will be a strong reaction. Yet he still acts on. In fact, in some sense it is a calculated move, because he "proved" his point: that Islam is a bad religion; but at what cost?
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Old 2011-04-01, 14:50   Link #12862
flying ^
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isn't this a stretch to call this a hate crime...?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...#ixzz1IEj89sYb
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Old 2011-04-01, 16:16   Link #12863
Decagon
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Many Low Wage Jobs Fail To Meet Basic Needs


Welcome to the now entrenched plutocracy of US, Inc. where less than .01% are not the "peasants".
I've read through the study and some of the underlying assumptions and sources kind of bug me since they aggregate data across the US and use route %'s of certain factors to derive values for a number of other factors rather than just indexing those costs separately. It also bugs me how the report arbitrarily uses the risk of "consuming substandard levels or consuming goods and services of substandard quality" to justify certain costs of food, education etc without providing the metric they use to define what constitutes this standard aside from the amount of money spent as a percentage of income. They also ignore extended family and just consider children a fixed cost on the income provider and not as an investment or insurance toward the parent.

This is not to say I don't appreciate the existence of such a thing, but it would be more relevant to most people if they bothered to do this for communities instead of a hodgepodge of scales and nonspecific standards based on information derived from national indexes and census data.
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Old 2011-04-01, 17:46   Link #12864
Frenchie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Employment jumps in March, jobless rate falls



This means that the average work week is 3-4 days. Does this sound like long-term or short-term employment to you?

This article looks like a red herring, if not a straw man.
In France, working 35 hours per week is considered normal employment, the max standing at 38 hours.
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Old 2011-04-01, 18:50   Link #12865
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm having trouble equating the two though...
1) Burn an organized stack of paper of which there are many many copies.
2) Slaughter human beings.

Now if they'd "burned a Bible" -- I might see the equivalence. But this is the kind of madness that gives religion bad rep. Wanna bet quite a few of the UN staff weren't Christian to begin with?
Remember that most of them are educated in hardcore-Muslim education system of "Caucasian Christian, Middle Eastern Muslim, Israeli Satan".

They called the Russians "Godless Caucasians" 30 years ago, so their lack of intelligence still hasn't changed much for the past 3 decade. Neither has the pastor's and his minions intelligence levels too.
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Old 2011-04-01, 18:56   Link #12866
ganbaru
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U.S. intelligence and the wisdom of crowds
http://blogs.reuters.com/bernddebusm...dom-of-crowds/
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Old 2011-04-01, 20:52   Link #12867
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Yes and no. Both actions are stemming from the same root: religious radicalism, and that's what the insanity remark is for. Ideally, what you suggest is fair: no any sane man in the outside world will disagree. However, in that part of the world it simply does not work that way. The society, and the religion all operates by different rules: so it is only fair in our eyes, not in theirs. So by passing this fairness judgment on them, we are actually enforcing our value on them, which is how some policies with perfect intentions goes wrong; and they are acting on their own radical version of fairness: that is all perceived "offenders" of their religion is punishable by death.

Of course, that's no excuse for killing innocent people no matter what of the circumstances. Those people most likely killed some one who they should be gratitude for: those poor UN staffs are there to improve their lives. That's really how misguided those people are and how sad this incident is. But on the other hand, do you think the pastor in the US bear no fault? "Hey I burned a Koran, why don't you burn a bible in exchange?" All the signs and precedences indicate there will be a strong reaction. Yet he still acts on. In fact, in some sense it is a calculated move, because he "proved" his point: that Islam is a bad religion; but at what cost?
I'm biased in that I've come to the position over my life that most ultra-zealots for any religion are flaming loonies and idiots... anyone willing to commit violence "for their religion". The pastor is a loonie too... but I'm what you might call a "relative relativist": any moral system that encourages violent acts in response to non-violent acts is axiomatically evil. She got raped? Oh, lets stone *her* instead of the perp. There really isn't any defense for that value system.
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Old 2011-04-02, 00:01   Link #12868
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
isn't this a stretch to call this a hate crime...?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...#ixzz1IEj89sYb
It depends on the circumstances. Was he trying to simply bully her and there was no motivation beyond a personal dislike, or was he trying to rip off her scarf because she was muslim? If the latter, it most certainly was a hate crime, even if the kid is only 12. The case should be handled in juvenile court though, and from that article it seems like it is.
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Old 2011-04-02, 03:21   Link #12869
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm biased in that I've come to the position over my life that most ultra-zealots for any religion are flaming loonies and idiots... anyone willing to commit violence "for their religion". The pastor is a loonie too... but I'm what you might call a "relative relativist": any moral system that encourages violent acts in response to non-violent acts is axiomatically evil. She got raped? Oh, lets stone *her* instead of the perp. There really isn't any defense for that value system.
I agree with you except on one thing: that "burning the koran" is non-violent. That's actually what the pastor wants you to think. Sure the action in itself is, just like pulling a trigger is non-violent until the gun powder explodes. I remember the guy had threatened to burn the koran before, and some official with very high position (Gates?) called him and said this is bad: it would put a lot of people in the mideast in danger. So the pastor is fully aware that there is a predetermined mechanism in place with foreseeable consequence: just like pulling a trigger, and that's what happened.
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Old 2011-04-02, 03:38   Link #12870
bladeofdarkness
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"where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also."
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Old 2011-04-02, 04:31   Link #12871
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
I agree with you except on one thing: that "burning the koran" is non-violent. That's actually what the pastor wants you to think. Sure the action in itself is, just like pulling a trigger is non-violent until the gun powder explodes. I remember the guy had threatened to burn the koran before, and some official with very high position (Gates?) called him and said this is bad: it would put a lot of people in the mideast in danger. So the pastor is fully aware that there is a predetermined mechanism in place with foreseeable consequence: just like pulling a trigger, and that's what happened.
Except Middle Easterners aren't guns, they're people. With their own minds and wills. Those burning Korans weren't used to set people on fire, were they?
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Old 2011-04-02, 05:26   Link #12872
ganbaru
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Fighting rages in Ivory Coast, 800 dead in one town
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...73014Z20110402
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Old 2011-04-02, 06:31   Link #12873
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Except Middle Easterners aren't guns, they're people. With their own minds and wills. Those burning Korans weren't used to set people on fire, were they?
People who are known to react badly to anything deemed blasphemy. It is like putting a fist 1cm in front of the nose of a Viking warrior, and once you are hit by a spike club, you say "you savage Viking", or "why don't you choose to take a step back?" What happened to the UN staff is textbook radicalism there, that is no debate. But, how do you real deal with it? In this incidents, we see two ways: (1) you try to engage them, improving people's lives so they don't solely live on religion, gradually opening the society to the outside world, etc. i.e., what the UN aid staff are doing there. Let me call this Turkey route, since that's like the goal here. (2) you say "you radical savage backward society with your evil religion. LoL, You stone people, what century is this?" Afterward, when bombs are dropped on civilians, you shrug your shoulders in apathy because they are "bad" people. In other words, the consciously or unconsciously "crusade" route. What annoys me is that the UN staff paid with their lives for what in my opinion is the right way, and the pastor made an unnecessary provocation which results directly or indirectly in an event that cost people's lives, yet succeed in swaying people into his point of view. Mission accomplished.
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Old 2011-04-02, 07:01   Link #12874
FatPianoBoy
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A small number of people breaking away from a much larger group and doing something like that is very suspicious. If you'll excuse the wanton speculation, it sounds like the Taliban sent a few people there to use the protest as a diversion to do what they're best at.
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Old 2011-04-02, 15:31   Link #12875
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
I agree with you except on one thing: that "burning the koran" is non-violent. That's actually what the pastor wants you to think. Sure the action in itself is, just like pulling a trigger is non-violent until the gun powder explodes. I remember the guy had threatened to burn the koran before, and some official with very high position (Gates?) called him and said this is bad: it would put a lot of people in the mideast in danger. So the pastor is fully aware that there is a predetermined mechanism in place with foreseeable consequence: just like pulling a trigger, and that's what happened.
I don't need the bloody pastor to know burning an inanimate object that one purchased is a non-violent expression of opinion. I'm not even a Christian. I burned some Tim Robbins books recently because they were worthless to the book reseller. Should I fear the author's fans?

The pastor is a zealot, the mob members are zealots... but there's simple insanity and then there's criminal insanity. *Any* person that has such a deep insecurity or fragility about their belief system is a danger to others.
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Old 2011-04-02, 16:41   Link #12876
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't need the bloody pastor to know burning an inanimate object that one purchased is a non-violent expression of opinion. I'm not even a Christian. I burned some Tim Robbins books recently because they were worthless to the book reseller. Should I fear the author's fans?

The pastor is a zealot, the mob members are zealots... but there's simple insanity and then there's criminal insanity. *Any* person that has such a deep insecurity or fragility about their belief system is a danger to others.
Vexx, you are reading it wrong. The koran burning is pure marketing move. The guy was a pastor of small and shrinking congregation in Florida, now he is the Past or a huge Congregation that is growing and the contribution is now in the millions. With one stroke and at little cost to himself, he just made himself a millionaire.
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Old 2011-04-02, 18:52   Link #12877
mysterious
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A lot of people said that the pastor should be persecuted for indirectly causing the death of those UN staffs and that he yelled fire in a crowd. The line of logic is just too great for me to understand. I never know that I could be legally responsible for how people in OTHER countries react to something I do legally in the US. Oh, those people also stone adultery and keep girl from getting educate so we better pass those law so no one get kill oversea

For the record, I am a non-believer so both those religion of peace follower and the pastor can burn in hell for all I care.
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Old 2011-04-02, 19:52   Link #12878
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
A lot of people said that the pastor should be persecuted for indirectly causing the death of those UN staffs and that he yelled fire in a crowd. The line of logic is just too great for me to understand. I never know that I could be legally responsible for how people in OTHER countries react to something I do legally in the US. Oh, those people also stone adultery and keep girl from getting educate so we better pass those law so no one get kill oversea

For the record, I am a non-believer so both those religion of peace follower and the pastor can burn in hell for all I care.
See you don't understand. Muslims are less rational than a normal person, and you can't expect them to behave in a civilized manor when exposed to potentially provoking stimuli. Therefore, we need to treat them like wild animals and not provoke them in any way.

What gets me is this is actually implied in the statements of a lot of people who claim to be defending muslims. Personally, I think it's worse than the people who go around burning korans. At least they're open about their prejudice against muslims. The notion that muslims are especially prone to fits of anger, thus the pastor, as a rational person unlike those poor muslims is responsible is idiocy of the highest order. The people who killed the UN workers were extremists who, if not for the burning of the koran, would have found some other excuse to murder foreigners. I'm sure the vast majority of muslims didn't care beyond maybe a "that guy's an asshole, fuck him" reaction.
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Old 2011-04-02, 19:59   Link #12879
mysterious
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
See you don't understand. Muslims are less rational than a normal person, and you can't expect them to behave in a civilized manor when exposed to potentially provoking stimuli. Therefore, we need to treat them like wild animals and not provoke them in any way.

What gets me is this is actually implied in the statements of a lot of people who claim to be defending muslims. Personally, I think it's worse than the people who go around burning korans. At least they're open about their prejudice against muslims. The notion that muslims are especially prone to fits of anger, thus the pastor, as a rational person unlike those poor muslims is responsible is idiocy of the highest order. The people who killed the UN workers were extremists who, if not for the burning of the koran, would have found some other excuse to murder foreigners. I'm sure the vast majority of muslims didn't care beyond maybe a "that guy's an asshole, fuck him" reaction.
No, I know they are not the most rational people and animals kill for survival so it isnt fair for the animals when you compare those people to them. I just make fun of all the people that want to persecute other for exercise their rights in their own countries. If they want to ban anything that would make those religion of peace offend, they should have scraped the whole constitution and install the damn sharia law
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Old 2011-04-02, 21:07   Link #12880
Kamui4356
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No, I know they are not the most rational people and animals kill for survival so it isnt fair for the animals when you compare those people to them. I just make fun of all the people that want to persecute other for exercise their rights in their own countries. If they want to ban anything that would make those religion of peace offend, they should have scraped the whole constitution and install the damn sharia law
I think you missed the entire point there.
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