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Old 2011-04-03, 02:17   Link #61
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by delirium View Post
On a side note: I felt that they passed up a golden opportunity to set the mood of the series. The X-Men have always been socially ostracized. They've gotten acceptance here and there, but it was nothing like what Ororo received on the cruise ship. They should have called her a freak and reacted negatively to her presence. I know that it sounds bad, but could you see how awesome that would have been? She flies off after that, upset, and then receives the call from Xavier. That's what I would have liked at the very least. I get that the story is not focusing on the trials and tribulations the X-Men are put through by the people they try to help, but instead on the Hellfire Club, yet that's not to say they need to be praised in the way Ororo was.
But that's exactly the point I was making in the previous post; racism isn't socially acceptable outwardly any-more. People are still racist, but it is now done politely and legally. It doesn't make sense to portray Earth like it was in the 1960's.

X-men is not a period-piece; it should be allowed to update itself to fight modern racism, not an outdated caricature version of it. If you portray mobs lynching mutants, it would just make the humans look pathetic, the human government worth-less at keeping law and order, and Magneto was right to kill them all.
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Old 2011-04-03, 02:43   Link #62
delirium
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
But that's exactly the point I was making in the previous post; racism isn't socially acceptable outwardly any-more. People are still racist, but it is now done politely and legally. It doesn't make sense to portray Earth like it was in the 1960's.

X-men is not a period-piece; it should be allowed to update itself to fight modern racism, not an outdated caricature version of it. If you portray mobs lynching mutants, it would just make the humans look pathetic, the human government worth-less at keeping law and order, and Magneto was right to kill them all.
The Scarlet Witch devastated the mutant race on a day that would become known as "M-Day". They were brought down to about 300 mutants in the mainstream universe, the rest had their X-Gene deactivated. Humans should have felt bad for them after that right? Instead of doing that, they turned Xavier's Westminister school into a detention camp for them. They're held in there by the Sentinel program. They later head out to Greymalkin Industries in California, and then to Magneto's old asteroid base that landed off the coast of San Francisco. It's been dubbed "Utopia".

You are right as far as being polite racism is concerned. But there have been spikes in racism at certain times. Trust me, they're not socially accepted yet though. I guess it depends on the area in the Marvel universe. As it stands right now, I'm okay with the way the cruise ship scene went down. I would have preferred the latter, for more of a psychological mindfuck kind of story, like Evangelion, but I'm sure the way they're doing it will be fine.
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Old 2011-04-03, 02:53   Link #63
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by delirium View Post
The Scarlet Witch devastated the mutant race on a day that would become known as "M-Day". They were brought down to about 300 mutants in the mainstream universe, the rest had their X-Gene deactivated. Humans should have felt bad for them after that right? Instead of doing that, they turned Xavier's Westminister school into a detention camp for them. They're held in there by the Sentinel program. They later head out to Greymalkin Industries in California, and then to Magneto's old asteroid base that landed off the coast of San Francisco. It's been dubbed "Utopia".

You are right as far as being polite racism is concerned. But there have been spikes in racism at certain times. Trust me, they're not socially accepted yet though. I guess it depends on the area in the Marvel universe. As it stands right now, I'm okay with the way the cruise ship scene went down. I would have preferred the latter, for more of a psychological mindfuck kind of story, like Evangelion, but I'm sure the way they're doing it will be fine.
My point is that you have to draw the line; the Japanese audiences in particular are quite prepared to cheer for the Mutants, if the normal human characters behaved in a way that made no sense to the Japanese. And as such, if the anime did what you wanted, there would be no soul-searching in the audience; they would just treat the normal humans as evil gaijin and be done with it, waiting for Magneto to kill them all so they could cheer.

It seems Marvel assumes that normal humans could get away with being immoral just because they don't have superpowers. That wouldn't fly in Japan; if you break the rules, you break the rules. Even if you hate someone, you would have to do it politely.

And of course, there is the unfortunate implication that Marvel is telling the Japanese that the American Government is actually evil, and that it is okay to keep it like that. When the government is obviously committing acts of atrocities, they would be called out. Personally I think at some point, Marvel have already crossed the line, and the normal human population in the Marvel world who repeatedly voted in their evil government have lost their right to live for some time.

If I were to go to the Marvel dimension, I would try to take up arms and kill every American voter there. Ignorance is no excuse for evil and corruption.
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Old 2011-04-03, 02:59   Link #64
delirium
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
My point is that you have to draw the line; the Japanese audiences in particular are quite prepared to cheer for the Mutants, if the normal human characters behaved in a way that made no sense to the Japanese. And as such, if the anime did what you wanted, there would be no soul-searching in the audience; they would just treat the normal humans as evil gaijin and be done with it, waiting for Magneto to kill them all so they could cheer.

It seems Marvel assumes that normal humans could get away with being immoral just because they don't have superpowers. That wouldn't fly in Japan; if you break the rules, you break the rules. Even if you hate someone, you would have to do it politely.
You didn't need to write that out, Vallen Chaos Valiant. I'm pretty sure I acknowledged you were right in my previous post.
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Old 2011-04-03, 03:03   Link #65
Fenrir_valindri
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I have to say, they made Storm SEXY, and I usually not a big fan of Storm.
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Old 2011-04-03, 03:18   Link #66
ThaGuy
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I have to say, they made Storm SEXY, and I usually not a big fan of Storm.
Lol, I wanted to log in just to say the same thing. They made her look and obviously sound young.
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Old 2011-04-03, 03:24   Link #67
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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You didn't need to write that out, Vallen Chaos Valiant. I'm pretty sure I acknowledged you were right in my previous post.
Fair enough.

Just as an example of actual racism in Japan, there are certain groups of people who are secretly ostracised. They were either the descendants of the native Japanese Aborigines, or those who were genetically from the lowest social class from back when Japan had a caste system.

Obviously, there haven't been an official caste system in Japan for a while. But there are still illegal means to find out if someone belonged in that "undesirable" group. The general result is either rejection of promotion, rejection of employment all together, etc. Even politicians have to hide their ancestry to ensure they could keep their voters.

But no lynching. And certainly no concentration camps. Racism is performed invisibly, so much so as to almost acting like it doesn't exist. Nothing like the American 60's.
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Old 2011-04-03, 03:36   Link #68
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That was much better than I expected after what happened with Iron Man and Wolverine.. looks like Madhouse were saving the best for last. Love the production values and attention to detail... Storm has always been a fav of mine and I really like this look for her, nice to see Aya Hisakawa get that role.

Thankfully this won't cover the Dark Phoenix saga.. so tired of that.. and it also means.. FUCK YEAH EMMA FROST. Will be following this for sure, better first episode than most and with Emma Frost to come I'll be watching.
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Old 2011-04-03, 04:20   Link #69
delirium
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Fair enough.

Just as an example of actual racism in Japan, there are certain groups of people who are secretly ostracised. They were either the descendants of the native Japanese Aborigines, or those who were genetically from the lowest social class from back when Japan had a caste system.

Obviously, there haven't been an official caste system in Japan for a while. But there are still illegal means to find out if someone belonged in that "undesirable" group. The general result is either rejection of promotion, rejection of employment all together, etc. Even politicians have to hide their ancestry to ensure they could keep their voters.

But no lynching. And certainly no concentration camps. Racism is performed invisibly, so much so as to almost acting like it doesn't exist. Nothing like the American 60's.
This is not a proper place to discuss racism in Japan. I would hope the Japanese people would be tired of brutal murders after the tens of millions their ancestors killed throughout World War II and even earlier with regards to countries like Korea. You seem to have lots to say on the matter though, so maybe we could discuss it in a thread in General Discussion?

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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
That was much better than I expected after what happened with Iron Man and Wolverine.. looks like Madhouse were saving the best for last. Love the production values and attention to detail... Storm has always been a fav of mine and I really like this look for her, nice to see Aya Hisakawa get that role.

Thankfully this won't cover the Dark Phoenix saga.. so tired of that.. and it also means.. FUCK YEAH EMMA FROST. Will be following this for sure, better first episode than most and with Emma Frost to come I'll be watching.
Are you sure they won't cover the Dark Phoenix saga? I mean, look at it this way. Jean Grey has disappeared for all intents and purposes, and a major villain in this series is apparently the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club, so I'm trying as hard as I can to not put two and two together.
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Old 2011-04-03, 04:37   Link #70
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by delirium View Post
This is not a proper place to discuss racism in Japan. I would hope the Japanese people would be tired of brutal murders after the tens of millions their ancestors killed throughout World War II and even earlier with regards to countries like Korea. You seem to have lots to say on the matter though, so maybe we could discuss it in a thread in General Discussion?
I specifically brought it up in order to come up with a hypothesis; namely, how racism might be addressed in a Japanese X-men story.

My idea is to portray Mutant treatment the way Racism play out in modern Japan, not 1960's America. Completely with polite, smiling people who never the less in little ways make the X-men uncomfortable and feel unwanted. Unfortunately, since the script is American, it is unlikely what I wanted could come to pass.

Do people really want to see Mutants being lynched on the streets with the silent approval of the government? I mean, I know that's what the Marvel comics do, but it seems at some point it becomes a sadism fetish rather than any realist portrayal of discrimination.
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Old 2011-04-03, 05:38   Link #71
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Well, about the episode itself, I have to echo the general opinion: it's definitely much better than Iron Man and Wolverine before this. The technical quality was great, and everything looks great. Death of Jean Grey is a nice way to set the background, and mutant kidnapping is simple but has great potential. Storm looks awesome, and I also enjoy the usual bickering between Cyclops and Wolverine. I'm very impressed, hope it will keep up this quality until the end.

About the mutant debate, there's also the possibility that while mutant is looked down upon by humans, the X-Men is an exception, maybe because they're heroes who regularly saves the world before. Either way, it will come up later, I'm sure, there can't be an X-Men story without it.
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Old 2011-04-03, 05:49   Link #72
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Okay, I know that racists in general can be dumb at times, but let's consider the facts for a moment:

- People are already well aware of mutants and the X-Men in the world, some might not like them, but it's not a surprising or shocking revelation any longer.

- These are a bunch of people on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, completely isolated from physical escape.

- Storm just pwned an entire ship of pirates with a single shot.

- Storm is on the same ship everyone else is, she can also fly, everyone else on the ship cannot fly.


Would you: a) grudgingly feel thankful that she saved you, and look happy, hoping she doesn't blast you next, or b) decide to go into a heated racism rant against mutants and her kind, possibly pissing her off and getting yourself zapped by lightning with no where to run to?

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Old 2011-04-03, 06:15   Link #73
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Would you: a) grudgingly feel thankful that she saved you, and look happy, hoping she doesn't blast you next, or b) decide to go into a heated racism rant against mutants and her kind, possibly pissing her off and getting yourself zapped by lightning with no where to run to?

If we were in 1960's America, b) would have been the obvious answer.

Thankfully the new story is set in the modern day.
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Old 2011-04-03, 06:52   Link #74
delirium
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Would you: a) grudgingly feel thankful that she saved you, and look happy, hoping she doesn't blast you next, or b) decide to go into a heated racism rant against mutants and her kind, possibly pissing her off and getting yourself zapped by lightning with no where to run to?

That would be the case in every confrontation humans had with the X-Men if b) were viable. Ororo would thus be excommunicated from the X-Men for her actions against humanity anyways. The idea that humans would not act out against mutants in this day and age is silly. They would act against them, be it through the military or protesting. People are still murdered because of the prejudices of others. Civil rights or not, folks! I tire of this ridiculous debate on the matter.

Look to the Ultimate Marvel universe for a more realistic view on our world coinciding with that of Marvel's. Wolverine kills a child whose mutant powers killed everyone in his town upon being activated. Magneto wiped out New York City, killed several of the X-Men, and other mutants are being hunted by SHIELD. In Ultimate X, Jean Grey is alive and is gathering up other mutants whose powers had recently activated or were in hiding after the events of Ultimatum(Magneto decimating New York City).

The above is most recent and most realistic reaction humans have towards mutants in our day and age. Could you all do me a favor and quit the mindless ranting about the 60s or rationality in humans? The latter doesn't exist, it's absurd to say otherwise. The former has a moot point. You're attempting to say human nature towards those that are different has changed. It really hasn't! It's on a situational basis. Remember that insanity about "terror mosques" last year? The Muslim community wants to build a mosque several blocks away from ground zero, and what did they get for it? So please, stop being so absurd with this discussion.

Last edited by delirium; 2011-04-03 at 08:36.
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Old 2011-04-03, 06:54   Link #75
Westlo
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I just have to mention it again, love this Storm design.

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Are you sure they won't cover the Dark Phoenix saga? I mean, look at it this way. Jean Grey has disappeared for all intents and purposes, and a major villain in this series is apparently the Inner Circle of the Hellfire Club, so I'm trying as hard as I can to not put two and two together.
Well considering how they've done character shots during the intro it's obvious that a certain someone will join the team... and while it has to deal with those events I don't think Phoenix will be a major factor in this series... than again it depends how long this is suppose to be.. just one cour like the other 2 marvel series?
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Old 2011-04-03, 07:01   Link #76
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than again it depends how long this is suppose to be.. just one cour like the other 2 marvel series?
I guess we'll have to wait to find out more about whether or not the series will continue beyond this season. I hope it does!
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Old 2011-04-03, 07:01   Link #77
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I've been hearing some complaints elsewhere that the normal humans aren't hostile enough towards mutants in this show.

But what do they expect? Racism didn't disappear by any means since the days when X-men was first created, but it is certainly no longer true that you would get shot dead on the streets just because the colour of your skin.

Modern racism is all about exploitation, paying lip service to equality, blocking social freedoms by proxy, salary and career discrimination and general condescending attitudes that are just barely legal. The whole "mobs beating people to death in broad daylight and burning houses down" is just not in fashion any more.

Social values have moved on, even for racism. Now it's all about doing things by the book.
616 universe anti-mutant sentiment has been pretty muted since they saved San Francisco and removed themselves to Utopia.

Ultimate universe anti-mutant hysteria is alive and kicked into overdrive after the dreadful Ultimatum, with the US government actively interning and disappearing every mutant they can get their hands on.
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Old 2011-04-03, 07:05   Link #78
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I guess we'll have to wait to find out more about whether or not the series will continue beyond this season. I hope it does!
All four Marvel Anime are confirmed to be one cour. X-Men is slated for 12 episodes, just like Iron Man and Wolverine. The only difference is, this time we'll probably actually get something good. Lol. In July the time slot will be replaced by Blade.
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Old 2011-04-03, 07:22   Link #79
delirium
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All four Marvel Anime are confirmed to be one cour. X-Men is slated for 12 episodes, just like Iron Man and Wolverine. The only difference is, this time we'll probably actually get something good. Lol. In July the time slot will be replaced by Blade.
Of course, of course. They might renew the X-Men series if these initial 12 episodes turn out alright. It all depends on the profit and reception the series receives.
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Old 2011-04-03, 08:34   Link #80
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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616 universe anti-mutant sentiment has been pretty muted since they saved San Francisco and removed themselves to Utopia.
Isn't it great? The cure for Racism is exile! The ultimate form of Segregation!

I mean, it would be a travesty if the average human figures out hating mutants are wrong, right? Marvel can't afford to offend the racist fraction of their readership, after all. Just cut their numbers down by de-powering most of them via magic while you are at it. The racist humans win everything, the mutants lose everything.

I wonder what Martin Luther King Jr would feel about a magical way to turn black people into Caucasians.
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