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Old 2011-04-06, 00:15   Link #22541
Revelation
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's assumed to have happened on Oct. 5/6. There must be some reason why people believe that, instead of pretty much any other time. I mean, why can't it have happened on the afternoon of the 4th? Unfortunately, no reason is given. Do people know, or is that just their assumption?
I agree with Jan-Poo, the most accurate way to find the exact time of the explosion was probably through forensic seismology, and perhaps that's the way they figured that it was caused by 900 tons of TNT from the different waves that were given off instead of a torpedo, missile attack, other types of explosives, etc.. This was probably figured this out much later in time though, since I don't know how common it was in the 80's to look at seismology graphs for anything other than earthquakes and nuclear bombs... But that's a lot of TNT.
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Old 2011-04-06, 20:08   Link #22542
ErenselTheJester
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Does anyone think that all of the plotholes we've found were purposeful? Because, for Ryu's sake, I hope it is.
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Old 2011-04-06, 20:55   Link #22543
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Define these plotholes. An oversight or an unelaborated point is not a plothole.
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Old 2011-04-07, 04:59   Link #22544
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Define these plotholes. An oversight or an unelaborated point is not a plothole.
Quoted for truth. I wanna hear what sensible people think are plot holes in the series, and we can discuss it further.
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Old 2011-04-07, 05:20   Link #22545
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Ange of EP4 seems to be contained in the actual writings of one of Hachijou's forgeries, and the same apparently goes for her EP6 iteration. If you think the Meta-World is also in the narratives, there you go.
But how would she have gotten the details from EP8 for her forgeries (the skyscraper jump, Amakusa, Okonogi, etc.)? According to ???, she only met Ange several decades later after 1998. So did Hachijou also forge the ??? end? (That would explain why she doesn't age.) In that case, you might as well identify her with Ryukishi07, and the question remains unless you assume a logic error on his part.

If it's possible that the 1998 in EP4 and EP6 is a forgery and the one in EP8 was made up, can any information from them be trusted? Is there anything in the 1998 shown that couldn't be thought up by a person in 1986? For example, is Amakusa explicitly said to have trained people at Blackwater?

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I assume that the Meta-World actually exists as a higher plane of existence, however, so the memories of Meta-Ange could've been integrated with the Ange of Rokkenjima-Prime. Because why not?
Is it higher than Rokkenjima-Prime? The trouble with that is, why is a higher plane enforcing the commandments of Golden Age detective writers?

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Also it's cute how you think the Meta-World gives a shit about time and space. It clearly doesn't.
I'd say it does, since a time paradox is just a kind of logic error.

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Er, her gun blows up in the VN too. Either way she's clearly a figment of Ange's imagination.
I was going by the wikipedia article, which said she was killed by Mammon in the VN, but Ange finished her off in the anime. Ange may have been having delusions, but they seemed to be based on reality, like Kasumi and her men being shot and portrayed as being killed by the Stakes. The anime made it seem like "Eva" had shot them with one of Kinzo's rifles.
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Old 2011-04-07, 05:54   Link #22546
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About the debate on Kinzo's death: the circumstances would raise suspicion that he had died before 1986. It happens in Japan more than you'd think. This one city was going to give an award to a woman who had lived to be 100. When the family couldn't produce her, it was investigated and turned out they hadn't reported her death so they could get her checks. It's thought this practice contributes to the reported longevity of Japanese. Adding to the suspicion would be Nanjo saying he had only three months to live in 1985. It could even be confirmed by examining Nanjo's medical records. Even if he didn't record Kinzo's death, he wouldn't have any record of treatments or Kinzo's condition past that date.
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Old 2011-04-07, 07:35   Link #22547
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
Quoted for truth. I wanna hear what sensible people think are plot holes in the series, and we can discuss it further.
The problem is that you need to have a clear idea about what the plot is before you can find holes in it.

I could tell you that X, Y and Z are plot holes if I assume the plot is "A". But if plot is "B" then X, Y and Z aren't holes, but then I could find other elements K, J and so on that would become holes if plot "B" was true. And even then one could speculate that there is plot C that no one has really seen so far.


This is what you get with a story that doesn't give clear answers about its own plot. So one could say: "You don't know if this is plot hole, ryuukishi probably has an explanation for this", but that can't be demonstrated nor falsified. People might even show you plausible fixes for a plot hole, but that doesn't mean that's actually what the author thought. Just because a certain event can be explained it doesn't mean it is explained in the story. But unless the author confirms or unconfirm this it's impossible to tell.

A good example are many of the shkanon interpretations which explained (or tried to explain) the issue, which ultimately were proven implausible with later info.

Then it all depends on your philosohpical approach on the matter. If you think you should assume an author is competent until proven otherwise then there are no confirmed plot holes in Umineko. If you think that an author must prove his worth, then whatever was left unexplained and it is necessary to understand the story or necessary to make sense out of it should be assumed to be a plot hole. And then Umineko has many.
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Old 2011-04-07, 08:35   Link #22548
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Originally Posted by neutrino View Post
About the debate on Kinzo's death: the circumstances would raise suspicion that he had died before 1986. It happens in Japan more than you'd think. This one city was going to give an award to a woman who had lived to be 100. When the family couldn't produce her, it was investigated and turned out they hadn't reported her death so they could get her checks. It's thought this practice contributes to the reported longevity of Japanese. Adding to the suspicion would be Nanjo saying he had only three months to live in 1985. It could even be confirmed by examining Nanjo's medical records. Even if he didn't record Kinzo's death, he wouldn't have any record of treatments or Kinzo's condition past that date.
Of course, the question is where those records were kept. If he had copies at the family clinic, as any responsible doctor would, his son ought to be able to go find them and notice if anything is wrong. Unfortunately, Nanjo wasn't a responsible doctor, so who knows if he even bothered to write down anything with respect to Kinzo's treatment?

But if there is anything on file, it ought to still be at the Nanjo Clinic. There's no particularly good reason for it not to be if it exists.
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Old 2011-04-07, 11:07   Link #22549
LyricalAura
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Of course, the question is where those records were kept. If he had copies at the family clinic, as any responsible doctor would, his son ought to be able to go find them and notice if anything is wrong. Unfortunately, Nanjo wasn't a responsible doctor, so who knows if he even bothered to write down anything with respect to Kinzo's treatment?

But if there is anything on file, it ought to still be at the Nanjo Clinic. There's no particularly good reason for it not to be if it exists.
I think Masayuki said that Nanjo had taken the records with him to Rokkenjima, so they were presumably destroyed in the explosion.
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Old 2011-04-07, 12:18   Link #22550
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But how would she have gotten the details from EP8 for her forgeries (the skyscraper jump, Amakusa, Okonogi, etc.)? According to ???, she only met Ange several decades later after 1998. So did Hachijou also forge the ??? end? (That would explain why she doesn't age.) In that case, you might as well identify her with Ryukishi07, and the question remains unless you assume a logic error on his part.
Frankly, I'm not entirely convinced that Hachijou isn't a legitimately supernatural being. Alternatively, Episodes 4 and 6 were written after Hachijou met Ange in EP8's epilogue.

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Is it higher than Rokkenjima-Prime? The trouble with that is, why is a higher plane enforcing the commandments of Golden Age detective writers?
The same reason this plane gives power to truth and magic to illusions. The same reason people can keep coming back from the dead as long as they feel like it. The same reason six years become a thousand.

The Meta-World is a place where the thoughts of humans are elevated into a literal, transcendent form. It's a canvas painted by the hearts and minds of those observing it. It's much like the Otherworld of Silent Hill, or something.

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I'd say it does, since a time paradox is just a kind of logic error.
Except none of that exists in the narrative of Rokkenjima 1986. Do you people actually understand what a logic error was about?

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I was going by the wikipedia article, which said she was killed by Mammon in the VN, but Ange finished her off in the anime. Ange may have been having delusions, but they seemed to be based on reality, like Kasumi and her men being shot and portrayed as being killed by the Stakes. The anime made it seem like "Eva" had shot them with one of Kinzo's rifles.
Again, the same goes in the anime as in the VN. Mammon apparently penetrates the gun which makes it explode, then Ange pops a cap off in her face.

The anime implies no such thing; Eva doesn't manifest until they're all already dead. You're insisting your interpretations onto what the anime is actually showing and passing your interpretation as an objective view.

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Then it all depends on your philosohpical approach on the matter. If you think you should assume an author is competent until proven otherwise then there are no confirmed plot holes in Umineko. If you think that an author must prove his worth, then whatever was left unexplained and it is necessary to understand the story or necessary to make sense out of it should be assumed to be a plot hole. And then Umineko has many.
By definition, these would not be plot holes, but simply unexplained aspects of the narrative. A plot hole has to be something which contradicts established facts of the narrative, something which happens with no justification or reason, etcetera. It's essentially synonymous with a Logic Error.

@Nanjo Records: Yea, Nanjo apparently took them with him. Even if they did survive, though, he'd probably have FAKED treatments and such. I mean, who's gonna contradict him if someone snoops?
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Old 2011-04-07, 12:26   Link #22551
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By definition, these would not be plot holes, but simply unexplained aspects of the narrative. A plot hole has to be something which contradicts established facts of the narrative, something which happens with no justification or reason, etcetera. It's essentially synonymous with a Logic Error.
That's not true, "plot hole" has a wider meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

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A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot
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Old 2011-04-07, 12:28   Link #22552
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@Nanjo Records: Yea, Nanjo apparently took them with him. Even if they did survive, though, he'd probably have FAKED treatments and such. I mean, who's gonna contradict him if someone snoops?
You know, it's actually quite strange. It's not like anyone on the island was going to demand to see Kinzo's charts, so why did he feel the need to bring them along? I guess he could have faked some up and planned to deliberately show them to the siblings, but there was no indication of that in any of the games that I can think of.
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Old 2011-04-07, 13:04   Link #22553
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You know, it's actually quite strange. It's not like anyone on the island was going to demand to see Kinzo's charts, so why did he feel the need to bring them along? I guess he could have faked some up and planned to deliberately show them to the siblings, but there was no indication of that in any of the games that I can think of.
If he brought charts, why wouldn't Eva have demanded to see them or even tried to steal them from his room? Eva and Kyrie were always so suspicious and yet they only kept pressuring the doctor to talk. If Nanjo had Kinzo's medical records on hand, you'd figure someone would try to go digging.

I forgot he brought the info with him, although I suspect that's just what he told his son and not necessarily the truth. Odds are if there were any charts, he kept them on his person at all times (which is incredibly irresponsible, but we know Nanjo's not a very good doctor) or he simply lied and said he always had Kinzo's medical info with him and simply never prepared any (and if Kinzo was indeed dead, there's an obvious reason why not). The whole "three months to live" thing is incredibly suspect anyway. Three months to live on account of what? Under what treatment regimen? It really does sound like the sort of statement a person just makes up.
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Old 2011-04-07, 17:51   Link #22554
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That's not true, "plot hole" has a wider meaning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole
That wasn't there last I checked. Fucking Wikipedia.

Regardless, given Umineko's narrative structure and ultimate ending, the absence of information does not in of itself constitute a plothole.
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Old 2011-04-07, 18:11   Link #22555
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Regardless, given Umineko's narrative structure and ultimate ending, the absence of information does not in of itself constitute a plothole.
I suppose with cases like Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa's characters falling flat it's debatable whether Ryukishi believed they were actually relevant or not. Even though Yasu clearly cared about them somewhat.

The only blatant plot hole I can seem to recall right now is how we've been made to beleive that Rokkenjima was supplied with 900 tons of explosives despite the island being understaffed and Kinzo beleiving they never supplied them with any kaiten torpedoes.
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Old 2011-04-07, 18:17   Link #22556
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I suppose with cases like Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa's characters falling flat it's debatable whether Ryukishi believed they were actually relevant or not. Even though Yasu clearly cared about them somewhat.

The only blatant plot hole I can seem to recall right now is how we've been made to beleive that Rokkenjima was supplied with 900 tons of explosives despite the island being understaffed and Kinzo beleiving they never supplied them with any kaiten torpedoes.
I wouldn't really call that a plot hole, more like suspension of disbelief. You're going to have that to some extent within any piece of fiction.
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Old 2011-04-07, 18:26   Link #22557
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I wouldn't really call that a plot hole, more like suspension of disbelief. You're going to have that to some extent within any piece of fiction.
I think that's how he wanted to write it. Suspension of disbelief would have just worked better if Kinzo had done the opposite of what he ended up doing and actually supported the idea of explosives instead of calling it ridiculous himself and giving us reasons to beleive it couldn't have been done that way. It's a plot hole to me because the facts don't match up. He didn't write that part that well.
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Old 2011-04-07, 19:24   Link #22558
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I think that's how he wanted to write it. Suspension of disbelief would have just worked better if Kinzo had done the opposite of what he ended up doing and actually supported the idea of explosives instead of calling it ridiculous himself and giving us reasons to beleive it couldn't have been done that way. It's a plot hole to me because the facts don't match up. He didn't write that part that well.
I guess that's a fair statement.
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Old 2011-04-07, 20:34   Link #22559
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Yeah, if he'd just said "a large number of torpedos and mining explosives were delivered, but we never had any use for them," suddenly the whole thing pretty much works fine.
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Old 2011-04-07, 22:28   Link #22560
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I think that's how he wanted to write it. Suspension of disbelief would have just worked better if Kinzo had done the opposite of what he ended up doing and actually supported the idea of explosives instead of calling it ridiculous himself and giving us reasons to beleive it couldn't have been done that way. It's a plot hole to me because the facts don't match up. He didn't write that part that well.
Since he went out of his way to construct a second, less likely source for them, and that source came from a narrative that is known to be false, doesn't that actually suggest that the information mismatch is exactly what he intended?

If you find a flaw in a witness's testimony, that's not a "plot hole", it's a clue that the witness is lying.
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