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Old 2011-04-08, 18:12   Link #1061
karice67
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Hm...not really sure if it's a good idea to add to the discussion of the 'romance'... but I guess I'll give it a go...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
That he is not feeling for Ranka is out of question. That he tells her how he feels is something what he should have done at episode 15 when both girls made a song contest in the hospital. It was very clear that both are not only making fun of the situation but that they have a heart for Alto. Furthermore he had the same chance to tell the truth when he sneaked into Rankas room, where she asked if what she is doing was correct. And latest when playboy Michel told him that Ranka was only singing for him. The interesting part is that Michel , who is actually a playboy, is telling him to tell her the truth already. But then the situation on the rooftop happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
How can Alto know what Ranka is going through when she doesn't tell him? The boy isn't psychic. Your giving him responsibility to something that he has no reason to think is a problem, and why should he? It helps to protect Frontier's people, that's all he knows as Ranka hadn't told him anything else. The situation on the rooftop was wholly Ranka's fault for blatantly putting her hopes into something that didn't mean anything, and on that in hindsight was pretty stupid of her. There was no logical explanation for why Ranka would even think that, which is why I say that it'd be funny if Alto was the one writing the K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
It's not about responsibility but honesty I am speaking. Even though the did not peer, they remained friends. Should friends also not be even honest with their emotions? While Ranka needs to learn this, Alto is in an age where he can do the first steps.
I agree with wisteria here. You can't expect Alto to tell Ranka 'he's not interested in her' if she hasn't said anything to him. It doesn't matter if everyone (well, Michel) has been telling him that Ranka likes him, unless she says it herself, he can't just come out and say 'I'm sorry...but right now, I only feel friendship for you' or something like that. It's just not something people do.

p.s. For the above, I'm putting aside what Alto actually feels wrt Sheryl and Ranka, cos I'm sure people can still debate that til the end of time.

To be honest, I think we're spending too much time on the ******** triangle. Alto's character arc has at least as much to do with his changing feelings about Frontier as with his relationships with the two girls, if not more.
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Old 2011-04-08, 18:35   Link #1062
wisteria233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Before the next analys comes here are my final words for this episode. Had to do some private stuff, so apologize for letting you wait for a reply.



It's not about responsibility but honesty I am speaking. Even though the did not peer, they remained friends. Should friends also not be even honest with their emotions? While Ranka needs to learn this, Alto is in an age where he can do the first steps.

Spoiler for Next ep spoiler tag:



It is not anyone's responsibility to return to return the feelings of the person who likes them, especially if they don't feel the same. In the same vein unless the person tells them they have no reason to turn them down, because there isn't anything turn down.

After the fight shown between Ozma and Alto, but there is a timeskip sweetheart. And Alto also didn't show that he was having a easy time admitting that Sheryl was dying or allowing her to continue to sing. Also you seem to think that what happens to Alto's home town shouldn't bother him. Like the watching his best friend being gutted should be easy. And I'm sorry but I wonder where that kind of logic comes from. And we can't say there hasn't been a Vajra attack because there very well may have been another one.

The state of one's home does way heavy one's conscious and I imagine it would be especially so if they were a part of the armed forces who were supposed to protect their home. Having lived in NYC during 09/11 I can happily vouch for that stressfulness. Alto's life has done a complete 180 I don't quite understand what part of that isn't stressful. The complete change in narrative to a much darker tone disagrees with you as well.

Also in your previous post you acted as though Alto deciding to kill Ranka was an easy decision and for that comment I wonder if you were actually thinking before you wrote it. Ranka is Alto's friend and even if he isn't romantically attracted to her, for your friend who for all you know could have defected to the enemy, and might end up being used against you when you meet up again. Especially right after the death of his best friend, and the hospitalization of another one. The next episode is just icing to the cake that is Alto's stress post episode 21.


See that's just the thing Ozma's predicament is very different, as Ranka's is Ozma's adopted sister, but then again even he understood the reason why Alto didn't go with him, and didn't even imply that Alto was having it easy. For Ozma its easy, Ozma never second guesses himself, in fact he knows exactly what he wants to do. Ditto for Ranka who wasn't shown to have any problems while sitting in the ship with Brera (who had been antagonistic towards Alto beforehand).

Also Ranka was never manipulated she was asked several times if she was okay they were making and Ranka in order to gain Alto's affection (who has no idea that she has problems with it because she didn't tell him) said "yes" or she just never voiced her opinion at all. You can't fault other characters for that because Ranka is the one who ultimately made the decision at the end of the day. She wasn't dragged into anything no one held a gun to her head, they just asked her privately (once mind you) and left her alone to make the decision for herself. Also the solution she came with was after the fact. She gave a totally different reason in episode 21. That's why I don't factor in the next episode, its the equivalent of someone deciding to go somewhere or do something because of one reason and then at a later date (read: when they know more and not only have had time to think but now have their feelings sorted out) looking back and saying differently. You can't say they did X because of their new reason because simply not what happened at the time they did it. People can change their reasons for doing something but it doesn't change their initial reason.

I'm not saying that Ranka has it easy at this point in time, but neither does Alto or Sheryl or Klan Klan or Luca or Nanase, because the world as they know it has changed.

You can't just use the reason a character created at a later date (especially when they didn't have the information then). Ah yeah and it was so smart for her to leave only to fall right into Grace's trap. When you look at things in hindsight you gotta first look take into account what the characters know when the scene happens. Just attributing the information revealed in later episodes to what happened in the previous episodes is futile, because then you know more than that character.

Also if you have to completely and totally ignore events in order to make Ranka look better, and other characters look bad then maybe you re-evaluate why you liked the character in the first place. Cause it makes you seem like a Ranka fanboy with selective memory when it comes to her.
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Old 2011-04-08, 18:55   Link #1063
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
To be honest, I think we're spending too much time on the ******** triangle. Alto's character arc has at least as much to do with his changing feelings about Frontier as with his relationships with the two girls, if not more.
YES. Thank you!
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Old 2011-04-08, 18:56   Link #1064
wisteria233
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YES. Thank you!
I'm getting tired of people dead horse myself.
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Old 2011-04-08, 18:59   Link #1065
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I'm getting tired of people dead horse myself.
Same here. A predictable, dead horse...
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Old 2011-04-08, 19:38   Link #1066
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
After the fight shown between Ozma and Alto, but there is a timeskip sweetheart. And Alto also didn't show that he was having a easy time admitting that Sheryl was dying or allowing her to continue to sing. Also you seem to think that what happens to Alto's home town shouldn't bother him. Like the watching his best friend being gutted should be easy. And I'm sorry but I wonder where that kind of logic comes from. And we can't say there hasn't been a Vajra attack because there very well may have been another one.
When I spoke of easymode I spoke only of making decisions. Not about the casualties and that it is getting easy after that. Everybody is about to have a hard. And don't you think that the loss of Michel did not affect the SMS crew and Ranka only because they are handling the situation different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
The state of one's home does way heavy one's conscious and I imagine it would be especially so if they were a part of the armed forces who were supposed to protect their home. Having lived in NYC during 09/11 I can happily vouch for that stressfulness. Alto's life has done a complete 180 I don't quite understand what part of that isn't stressful. The complete change in narrative to a much darker tone disagrees with you as well.
Alto is not the only one whose life changes 180°. So it's no excuse that he alone has a hard time.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Also in your previous post you acted as though Alto deciding to kill Ranka was an easy decision and for that comment I wonder if you were actually thinking before you wrote it. Ranka is Alto's friend and even if he isn't romantically attracted to her, for your friend who for all you know could have defected to the enemy, and might end up being used against you when you meet up again. Especially right after the death of his best friend, and the hospitalization of another one. The next episode is just icing to the cake that is Alto's stress post episode 21.
I wrote that because he can now focus of being a pilot MF and hanging not with his feelings between his duty or his heart.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
See that's just the thing Ozma's predicament is very different, as Ranka's is Ozma's adopted sister, but then again even he understood the reason why Alto didn't go with him, and didn't even imply that Alto was having it easy. For Ozma its easy, Ozma never second guesses himself, in fact he knows exactly what he wants to do. Ditto for Ranka who wasn't shown to have any problems while sitting in the ship with Brera (who had been antagonistic towards Alto beforehand).
Lets discuss this in the after the review of the next episode. There is more behind Ozma and Alto rather than only that Ozma understands why Alto stays with the fleet.


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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Also Ranka was never manipulated she was asked several times if she was okay they were making and Ranka in order to gain Alto's affection (who has no idea that she has problems with it because she didn't tell him) said "yes" or she just never voiced her opinion at all. You can't fault other characters for that because Ranka is the one who ultimately made the decision at the end of the day.
Ranka is managed by Grace. She definitely is manipulating Ranka to do things she really did not want to do. And speaking of Grace. She could have had the chance to trap Ranka on Frontier as well. Think about that Brera can be slaved all the time and the person closest to Ranka at the moment was Brera. So it's no reason to blame that Ranka further that her decision to leave was wrong because she flies into a trap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Also if you have to completely and totally ignore events in order to make Ranka look better, and other characters look bad then maybe you re-evaluate why you liked the character in the first place. Cause it makes you seem like a Ranka fanboy with selective memory when it comes to her.
Only because I question the comments of someone does not mean I am a fanboy of a character he commented negative. If you want to blame me a fanboy, then of him:
Spoiler for The one under the hammer:
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Old 2011-04-08, 19:56   Link #1067
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
When I spoke of easymode I spoke only of making decisions. Not about the casualties and that it is getting easy after that. Everybody is about to have a hard. And don't you think that the loss of Michel did not affect the SMS crew and Ranka only because they are handling the situation different?
And what he's just supposed to just get over it easily, like nothing ever happened? Like the event itself shouldn't weigh down on him? Again where is your logic coming from?


Quote:
Alto is not the only one whose life changes 180°. So it's no excuse that he alone has a hard time.
I never said he was the only one with a hard time. But still considering the circumstances which you gleefully ignore there isn't an excuse that needs to be given.

Quote:
I wrote that because he can now focus of being a pilot MF and hanging not with his feelings between his duty or his heart.
Because being gleefully unaware of one girl's feelings for you while hanging out with another one along with your friends, going to High School where you're popular and being on the right track to achieving your dream is so hard (sarcasm).

Quote:
Lets discuss this in the after the review of the next episode. There is more behind Ozma and Alto rather than only that Ozma understands why Alto stays with the fleet.
umm you can't say that understands what Alto is going trough because he doesn't know what is going on in Alto's personal life.

Quote:
Ranka is managed by Grace. She definitely is manipulating Ranka to do things she really did not want to do. And speaking of Grace. She could have had the chance to trap Ranka on Frontier as well. Think about that Brera can be slaved all the time and the person closest to Ranka at the moment was Brera. So it's no reason to blame that Ranka further that her decision to leave was wrong because she flies into a trap.
And Grace always gave a choice, always gave her a chance to say no. How is suddenly Grace's fault that Ranka never said no, even when given the opportunity to do so? Also Grace could have trapped Ranka in Frontier? Aren't you getting ahead of yourself in making theories that hold absolutely no basis? Grace only has complete control over Galaxy, Ranka only ended up in her complete control after she left frontier. If you have ignore facts in order to make Ranka totally innocent then maybe you should re-evaluate your reasons for liking the character. There is a reason why people don't consider Grace manipulative for what happened to Ranka, because a big part of it was Ranka just making bad decisions, and not voicing her refusal even when given the opportunity to do so.

Quote:
Only because I question the comments of someone does not mean I am a fanboy of a character he commented negative. If you want to blame me a fanboy, then of him:
Spoiler for The one under the hammer:
no you're right what makes you a fanboy are your words, and obvious skewing of the events of the series to make your favorite character look good.
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Old 2011-04-08, 20:40   Link #1068
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
umm you can't say that understands what Alto is going trough because he doesn't know what is going on in Alto's personal life.
Ok. Let me just think back.
- He is one of the survivor of the research fleet being attacked by the Vajra
- At the beginning Ozma lost his Wingman who was later replaced by Alto
- His Sister is getting into a prepubert phase
- He asked Alto to take care of Ranka while he can't and the only thing he sees is that he gets in conflict with Brera and furthermore he is the one who is being defended by Ranka.
- His sister is also being marked a traitor because she left the fleet
- He is being hunted down by Leon and his consorts
- He has to fight his own men who skipped side when SMS hijacked the Quarter

Do you really think he does not know/understand what is going on in Altos personal life?


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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
And Grace always gave a choice, always gave her a chance to say no. How is suddenly Grace's fault that Ranka never said no, even when given the opportunity to do so?
Remember the scene where Grace informed Ranka that she takes over her management? Ranka tried to say no but Grace made some arguments where she had no choice but to continue with her. Grace knows how to influence the persons around her and she does not give a chance to say no.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Also Grace could have trapped Ranka in Frontier? Aren't you getting ahead of yourself in making theories that hold absolutely no basis? Grace only has complete control over Galaxy, Ranka only ended up in her complete control after she left frontier. If you have ignore facts in order to make Ranka totally innocent then maybe you should re-evaluate your reasons for liking the character. There is a reason why people don't consider Grace manipulative for what happened to Ranka, because a big part of it was Ranka just making bad decisions, and not voicing her refusal even when given the opportunity to do so.
Eh no? Grace already hacked into the MF system earlier and she does not need to control MF. It is enough to open the looks to the doors (e.g. airdome). Also she has the option to put Brera back into slave mode and she warned Brera once what can happen if he does not obey.

My intention is not to make Ranka innocent, because she is not fully innocent. I agree on this. However I see it as wrong that she is responsible to protect the fleet only because there are too many other executive organisations who bear this responsibility and because it is their job to protect the fleet. And only because I am of this opinion it still does not make me a fanboy of her. I already named who I would follow more and that is Ozma and the SMS crew. And Ozma also shares the same opinion that Ranka is not the fleets human shield.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2011-04-08 at 20:59.
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Old 2011-04-08, 21:07   Link #1069
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Ok. Let me just think back.
- He is one of the survivor of the research fleet being attacked by the Vajra
- At the beginning Ozma lost his Wingman who was later replaced by Alto
- His Sister is getting into a prepubert phase
- He asked Alto to take care of Ranka while he can't and the only thing he sees is that he gets in conflict with Brera and furthermore he is the one who is being defended by Ranka.
- His sister is also being marked a traitor because she left the fleet
- He is being hunted down by Leon and his consorts
- He has to fight his own men who skipped side when SMS hijacked the Quarter

Do you really think he does not know/understand what is going on in Altos personal life?
- he doesn't care about being marked as a traitor
- Ozma is originally from Frontier, he was called in to protect the research fleet but it wasn't his home
- He got over Ranka growing up earlier on the series
- I don't think he fully expected for Alto to be able to take care of Ranka on his own
- At that point in time Ranka wasn't named a traitor to the fleet, but again he doesn't wasn't shown to be bothered by it
- the only person who went against Ozma was Alto, and even then Ozma wasn't bothered by it
- he was never shown to be hunted at all in fact no one stopped tried to stop SMS from leaving but Alto, they simply don't have the resources for that

of all your points only one of them holds any truth to it, and even then his personal relationship with Ozma is unknown. So yeah I keep my statement Ozma does not understand what is going through, partly because they haven't spoken to each other in many episodes, and partly because some of the things that bother Ozma do not bother Alto, their worries are totally different.


Quote:
Remember the scene where Grace informed Ranka that she takes over her management? Ranka tried to say no but Grace made some arguments where she had no choice but to continue with her. Grace knows how to influence the persons around her and she does give a chance to say no.

Umm, what are you talking about Ranka never even tried to say no or ask about Elmo, at any point in time. Your habit concerning Ranka is rearing its ugly head again.

Quote:
Eh no? Grace already hacked into the MF system earlier and she does not need to control MF. It is enough to open the looks to the doors (e.g. airdome). Also she has the option to put Brera back into slave mode and she warned Brera once what can happen if he does not obey.
She hacked in it to gain information, she never hacked into the system controlling Frontier. Or was ever shown to be doing so. Also didn't Sheryl open the doors from the inside, and Grace just waited outside? Also Grace put a controlling device in Brera which is why he just did as he was told. So again your grasping at straws. If she could hack into anything then she would have done so during the final battle, and she never would have died. Your point is invalidated by logic.

Quote:
My intention is not to make Ranka innocent, because she is not fully innocent. I agree on this. However I see it as wrong that she is responsible to protect the fleet only because there are too many other executive organisations who bear this responsibility and because it is their job to protect the fleet. And only because I am of this opinion it still does not make me a fanboy of her. I already named who I would follow more and that is Ozma and the SMS crew. And Ozma also shares the same opinion that Ranka is not the fleets human shield.
I'm not saying that Ranka is responsible for anything more than what she volunteered for. And with the way you try to put down other characters in order to make Ranka look good I'd have to say you are pretty much disproving your own words.
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Old 2011-04-08, 21:57   Link #1070
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
- he doesn't care about being marked as a traitor
- Ozma is originally from Frontier, he was called in to protect the research fleet but it wasn't his home
- He got over Ranka growing up earlier on the series
- I don't think he fully expected for Alto to be able to take care of Ranka on his own
- At that point in time Ranka wasn't named a traitor to the fleet, but again he doesn't wasn't shown to be bothered by it
- the only person who went against Ozma was Alto, and even then Ozma wasn't bothered by it
- he was never shown to be hunted at all in fact no one stopped tried to stop SMS from leaving but Alto, they simply don't have the resources for that

of all your points only one of them holds any truth to it, and even then his personal relationship with Ozma is unknown. So yeah I keep my statement Ozma does not understand what is going through, partly because they haven't spoken to each other in many episodes, and partly because some of the things that bother Ozma do not bother Alto, their worries are totally different.
It does not matter if it bothers him or not. His life changed as well. And it is not lesser heavy than what Alto is going through and do not come with Michel now. Michel was one of Ozmas subordinates. So his death influence both. So what's left? Ozma who was concered Ranka being used as a shield (before she left) and Alto concerned about Sheryls Status (this episode). And Ozma was more than upset that Ranka is/was used as a shield.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Umm, what are you talking about Ranka never even tried to say no or ask about Elmo, at any point in time. Your habit concerning Ranka is rearing its ugly head again.
I am not sure if you missed the complete scene but Ranka said that she would prefer to work with Elmo. From my understanding this was actually a no but Grace explained it was a governmental contract and she had no choice from here on.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
She hacked in it to gain information, she never hacked into the system controlling Frontier. Or was ever shown to be doing so. Also didn't Sheryl open the doors from the inside, and Grace just waited outside? Also Grace put a controlling device in Brera which is why he just did as he was told. So again your grasping at straws. If she could hack into anything then she would have done so during the final battle, and she never would have died. Your point is invalidated by logic.
If she has access to the military network to get information don't you think that has the option to get accesscodes? Or how would you explain how the airdome lock was opened without someone getting into the system?

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I'm not saying that Ranka is responsible for anything more than what she volunteered for. And with the way you try to put down other characters in order to make Ranka look good I'd have to say you are pretty much disproving your own words.
Yes, she volunteered and she had sung. But after the incident she stepped back. As a volunteer she is free to decide this even though it make her look bad. However, considering that each time when she was singing and the vajra were killed she feels the pain and by the time she recognizes that she is only used I still say that her departure was correct. And yes it looks better for her and bad for the fleet. As you said she was a volunteer and free to decide when to step back, there is no reason to brand her negative. But this is what is happening here and where I am in disagreement with you all.


I am making a cut here as well. I think it does not make any sense to continue this because your words does not convince me fully and vice versa in some points.
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Old 2011-04-08, 23:02   Link #1071
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
It does not matter if it bothers him or not. His life changed as well. And it is not lesser heavy than what Alto is going through and do not come with Michel now. Michel was one of Ozmas subordinates. So his death influence both. So what's left? Ozma who was concered Ranka being used as a shield (before she left) and Alto concerned about Sheryls Status (this episode). And Ozma was more than upset that Ranka is/was used as a shield.

But it doesn't bother him, therefore your point is invalid, because he doesn't show any stress towards that situation. Its not just that Alto's situation changed, its that it changed for the worse and Alto was showed stess towards the situation. Ozma however did none of the sort therefore one cannot infer that he felt stress towards the situation that Alto did. Michael was one of Ozma's subordinates but he was not Ozma's friend. They were not close on a personal level, so again you haven't made a valid point, at all.

Quote:
I am not sure if you missed the complete scene but Ranka said that she would prefer to work with Elmo. From my understanding this was actually a no but Grace explained it was a governmental contract and she had no choice from here on.
Again when at all did she say that she would prefer to work to Elmo? When did she even imply that she wanted to do so? Cause when I saw the episode all Ranka did was just go "okay" and dropped it, and wasn't all caused by Ranka agreeing to become the "Songstress of Hope" anyway. Again your point is not only incorrect but invalid. Its something that has been pointed out several times, get the time line right.

Quote:
If she has access to the military network to get information don't you think that has the option to get accesscodes? Or how would you explain how the airdome lock was opened without someone getting into the system?
Except Grace was never shown to have that ability, three incorrect and invalid points in a row. Your theorizing based off what you think a character has the power to do not what they have actually done, and again Sheryl opened up the latch from the inside and Cathy was with Grace, who only used her ability to locate Sheryl. Your memory really is bad.

Quote:
Yes, she volunteered and she had sung. But after the incident she stepped back. As a volunteer she is free to decide this even though it make her look bad. However, considering that each time when she was singing and the vajra were killed she feels the pain and by the time she recognizes that she is only used I still say that her departure was correct. And yes it looks better for her and bad for the fleet. As you said she was a volunteer and free to decide when to step back, there is no reason to brand her negative. But this is what is happening here and where I am in disagreement with you all.
Except its not just volunteering to clean up a neighborhood, or community service. What Ranka volunteered to do was to be their symbol of hope, and its not something that can be retracted so easily, especially with the situation of her home. With community service your just mentoring for a little while or cleaning up your neighborhood, but what Ranka decided to do was to save lives, and she became agreed to it knowing what it would entail, heck she was gungho at doing her job before episode 19. That is why people looked down on her from episode 19-21. To suddenly say I don't want to be the songstress of Hope anymore was the equivalent of saying "I don't want to save the lives of the people in Frontier anymore" and that just doesn't look good for her character especially when one considers her vague reasons for leaving in episode 21, because even though she came up with another reason it was well after the fact, and it didn't invalidate and change her initial reason for doing the act either.

Ranka was in over her head from the get-go when she decided to become the pillar of strength for Frontier as well as their symbol of Hope just to impress the guy that she liked. And while I can pity her, I can't say its not her fault because she did make the conscious decision even if it was one made without much serious thought. I understand that you like her but trying to white wash what happened and pin the blame on other characters doesn't validate your point.

Quote:
I am making a cut here as well. I think it does not make any sense to continue this because your words does not convince me fully and vice versa in some points.
My problem with you is that you blatantly forget scenes and the time line in order to try to prove your point. Except your not fooling anyone, and it just makes you look like a fanboy.
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Old 2011-04-09, 03:49   Link #1072
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Well, I go to sleep and a huge page of discussion spawns. Tsk.

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Only because I question the comments of someone does not mean I am a fanboy of a character he commented negative. If you want to blame me a fanboy, then of him:
Why, thanks for the cheap shot! Your grammar is atrocious, by the way.

----


Anyway, on to episode 22.

- While I found Leon to be a patsy for Grace in most parts, at least he was one who had his own plans and not a total moron.

- Lucas commentary and the report we got before the credits show exactly in what tight situation Frontier is: They have three months left and they cannot let any Vajra they encounter let get back information to the main Vajra hives.

- Well, I can't say that Luca stands for the general perception of Ranka in the fleet, but he also is a friend of hers. If he thinks of her as a traitor, then he is not the only one. Alto is still conflicted at this point.

- I still find it amusing that the scientists with Luca can immediately trace the fold energy back to Sheryls TV appearance, but then again it is the Macross universe, where music can move worlds.

- Bobby getting teary-eyed always gets me all emotional, too. I think the "adult three" would have made an excellent storyline all by themselves. It's one of the great strengths of Macross Frontier that the so many of the supporting characters, even without having a detailed storyline, were so compelling. It helped immensely with getting immersed into the overall story.

- And here with the Klan/Alto conversation we get another piece of the quite obvious and important arc of Altos friends pushing him to make a decision with his feelings. Y'know, the obvious and important arc the writers in the end ignored so that they did not have to have Ranka be the obvious loser of the triangle.

- Rankas letter to Ozma proves, btw., that she did premeditate her departure from Frontier, just to put the final nail into the coffin of that old debate. It also proves that the reason she gave Alto ( escorting Ai-kun ) was only part of why she left. However, there is still no indication that she knew that leaving Frontier would draw away the Vajra. Which, uh, it didn't, as shown in the very beginning of the episode.

- Ouch, Sheryl is not pulling back punches on Luca. But, yeah, he kinda deserves it for not even trying to show some empathy for her situation.

- And Leon may be a manipulative bastard, but he is right here that Sheryl can help with the survival of Frontier. And, yes, mankind.

- And Sheryl does get it. Her thoughts are made very clear: They are for the victims and the relatives of those. Not for herself, but for others.

- Hrmh, I know the dramatic appeal of having Sheryl collapse, but she was just beginning to show a radiant smile... I would also have liked to see how the conversation would have gone if she wouldn't have collapsed.

- Wow. I guess I never really took in the THORA translation for the scene at Altos house. It works much better than the one I had back then from gg. From Sheryl saying "I realized that singing is all I have to give", which shows once again how much of herself she is giving to others, from the dialogue bringing it out much better that she tried to spare Alto rather subconciously, to Alto saying "You don't have to force those smiles in front of me anymore", which says so much more about how he perceives Sheryls situation, before she shows him that she is not in the same situation as his mother was.

It really is a beautifully done scene. The characters learn so much about another in just a few minutes.

- Hm. I still wonder a bit how much Ranka felt in that obvious fold transmission between her and Sheryl of what was going on in Saotome mansion?

- To stir the old debate again: Yeah, I definitely think that Sheryl and Alto made love.

- Yaaarh, Captain Wilder and his space pirates!

- Yeah, and buzz off to that suggestion that Alto has it so easy with his decisions now that Ranka is gone. If the scene at the end doesn't show that he had been going stir-crazy with his inner conflicts, which isn't something he completely resolves until the end of next episode, then I don't know what else can do it.
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Old 2011-04-09, 06:36   Link #1073
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Again when at all did she say that she would prefer to work to Elmo? When did she even imply that she wanted to do so? Cause when I saw the episode all Ranka did was just go "okay" and dropped it, and wasn't all caused by Ranka agreeing to become the "Songstress of Hope" anyway. Again your point is not only incorrect but invalid. Its something that has been pointed out several times, get the time line right.
Episode 16, watch starting at 5:30 min.

"I'd like to work with Elmo-san and the others like I used to-" <- Ranka, 5:51 min

The rest is a matter of interpretation. Looking at the complete conversation she really did not had a chance to say no because Grace wrapped everything like a sealed contract.

And going back to Grace "hacking ability". Watch episode 17 5:45 min.
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Old 2011-04-09, 07:00   Link #1074
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The rest is a matter of interpretation. Looking at the complete conversation she really did not had a chance to say no because Grace wrapped everything like a sealed contract.
Wrong. She could have said "no".
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Old 2011-04-09, 07:02   Link #1075
Father Hentai
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Wrong. She could have said "no".

No, because she still is not that far in her personnel progress to say "no". And we discussed about this a few times ago.
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Old 2011-04-09, 07:18   Link #1076
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No, because she still is not that far in her personnel progress to say "no". And we discussed about this a few times ago.
Wrong again, Bob. Ranka clearly had grown in the episodes prior to episode sixteen to a point where she could go against the will of her adoptive father.

Her regressive behaviour in episode in episode sixteen signaled the decision of the writers to reverse her character growth from the preceding four episodes.
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Old 2011-04-09, 07:53   Link #1077
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Episode 16, watch starting at 5:30 min.

"I'd like to work with Elmo-san and the others like I used to-" <- Ranka, 5:51 min

The rest is a matter of interpretation. Looking at the complete conversation she really did not had a chance to say no because Grace wrapped everything like a sealed contract.

And going back to Grace "hacking ability". Watch episode 17 5:45 min.
She still could have voiced her opinion and said "no".
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:15   Link #1078
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No, because she still is not that far in her personnel progress to say "no".
By "personal progress", are you referring to Ranka's character development or her career advancement? The latter is perhaps the more applicable of the two.

Personality-wise, I think Ranka is spirted enough to voice her disagreement on an issue if she held an opinion on it that she felt worth voicing. After all, look at what happened when Ozma told her to give up on becoming a singer and to stop skipping school... she told him "no", punctuated with a thrown knife.

Her mild protest in episode 16 is little more than a polite afterthought about Elmo and Sheryl's situation, given that the deal has been made and the deed has been done.
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Old 2011-04-09, 10:36   Link #1079
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Wrong again, Bob. Ranka clearly had grown in the episodes prior to episode sixteen to a point where she could go against the will of her adoptive father.

Her regressive behaviour in episode in episode sixteen signaled the decision of the writers to reverse her character growth from the preceding four episodes.
This is true and it made me very sad. They could have continued Ranka's growth (into Movie!Ranka?), instead of trashing her arc like that. Although I think episode 21 was supposed to continue said development, but sadly it backfired as her reasons weren't completely explained and it ended in disaster.
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Old 2011-04-09, 11:38   Link #1080
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Regarding Ranka, I think to a large degree she just couldn’t handle the pressure. I’m not really about to condemn her for that, but on the other hand I tend to prefer characters like Sheryl who show the strength to overcome.

It’s possible she had some vague idea that she could help settle things, but if she did I think it was more on a subconscious level than a conscious one, so I can’t say I think her decision at the end of last episode was particularly wise.

Now on to Episode 22:

Regarding Magnus’ comments on Sheryl doing things for others rather than herself… I don’t want to cheapen what she’s doing because I think it’s very admirable, but I actually think she’s getting something out of it as well. She’s getting a purpose, and that’s something she desperately needs at this point in the story. I think Sheryl needed to sing in that shelter last episode just as much as the people in that shelter needed to hear her sing.

Say what you will about Leon in comparison to Grace, but he sure knows how to be an effective demagogue.

I have some mixed feelings about the confrontation between the SMS members. I really like how dramatic that sequence is. However, it also gives the impression that Alto lost to Ozma because he wasn’t certain of his purpose. Alto just promised Sheryl that he would stay with her to the end. I dislike the show implying that he's uncertain of his purpose so soon after doing that.

There’s more I could say about my thoughts for this episode, but I don’t want to bury the important points in too many minor ones. I might say more later.
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